The ending montage to the 2016 Proleague finals was interspersed with a series of cryptic text messages.
"We dreamed a dream."
"A dream full of hope."
"Sometimes we had regrets."
"But it was a happy dream."
"It's time now, to close..."
"...this midsummer's night dream."
"We'll wait."
"Until we can dream again."
Talk of StarCraft 2 Proleague ending after the 2016 season has been circulating behind the scenes for a few months now, and has spilled over onto Korean forums following media reports of Brood War HD.
On September 03 2016 23:45 Akara12345 wrote: It's about time. Maybe Brood War will replace it?
itll be interesting if BW makes a comeback. i have no interest in watching it personally, but it would probably create hype that would draw a lot of people in. the problem as i see it is that the BW fanbase would be eating itself inside out - there's almost no chance of drawing in viewers who weren't either around for BW or simply curious enough because of SC2, and that's a limited base. SC2 is fighting a losing battle against other esports, but it at least had its own modern appeal. no one from the current generation is going to want to sit down and watch a game that looks like BW unless the HD remaster is mindblowing
cue a thousand insane BW acolytes telling me how it's the greatest game ever and even in 500 years people will appreciate its beauty, but i'm talking about reality
what the hell? sc2 is just about to start rly being more fun game broodwar wasnt that mch big of esports in 2003 as in 2008 we have to give expansion time, hope sc2 will continue as its best game
i think its just closeing the season we got summer now and we wait till end of blizzcon to see new proleague so prehaps its just like that also the event has a lots of succses ppl in korea watching it on the tv + the steam ones
I do still think there will be a SC2 Proleague in 2017. But I have serious doubts it can continue beyond 2017 due to player attrition from retirements. Unless the PL teams can find new blood and find it FAST, the korean SC2 scene's days are numbered.
That being said I also found the statements cryptic, not only at the end but also from Wolf during the last game, so who knows...
On September 04 2016 00:22 Thouhastmail wrote: According to contract, SKT sponsorship ends this year; So, it is possible to interpret that message as "weneedasponsor."
they should really consider taking sponsors that don't start with the letter "S" in that case
They mean they're ending something, could be for this year could be forever. Who knows. Most likely another year will depend on if they can get another sponsor.
Translated messages from Korean to English always sound cryptic to me. However I can't imagine a world without pro league. It was my favourite esport tournament for the past few years :/
Beginning of the end for major Starcraft 2 in Korea. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Blizzard start pushing Brood War (and probably Overwatch) in Korea again along with Kespa (as has been rumored). Most players will switch back to BW, some will retire, a few will probably keep playing SC2 if there is still GSL, but without major teams I kinda doubt GSL will survive either. Not surprising either, not only is Starcraft 2 an inferior game, it also doesn't have the legacy and culture that BW does in Korea. Koreans tend to play the same games for decades, ie Maplestory, Lineage, Sudden Attack and Brood War. This would also explain Blizzard's increased focus on the foreign scene.
Well, Korea was never really into SC2 anyways. The efforts by Blizzard to region-lock WCS and to promote foreigners over Koreans are starting to make a lot of sense now ; the goal wasn't to mindlessly kill the Korean scene or to throw money at foreigners as we first thought, but to prepare the scene to make sure that when Koreans would switch back to BW, foreigners would have legitimacy to claim to be the best in the world.
On September 04 2016 01:08 coolman123123 wrote: Beginning of the end for major Starcraft 2 in Korea. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Blizzard start pushing Brood War (and probably Overwatch) in Korea again along with Kespa (as has been rumored). Most players will switch back to BW, some will retire, a few will probably keep playing SC2 if there is still GSL, but without major teams I kinda doubt GSL will survive either. Not surprising either, not only is Starcraft 2 an inferior game, it also doesn't have the legacy and culture that BW does in Korea. Koreans tend to play the same games for decades, ie Maplestory, Lineage, Sudden Attack and Brood War. This would also explain Blizzard's increased focus on the foreign scene.
Alright you BW-philes should really stop saying that BW is better and that sc2 is a dead game. You guys sound like the exact kind of people we don't want here. Do you want sc2 people to talk bad of BW? Cuz there are plenty of reason why BW is not fun too. Just because it was the best game of its time does not mean it still is now. Seriously please
On September 04 2016 01:08 coolman123123 wrote: Beginning of the end for major Starcraft 2 in Korea. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Blizzard start pushing Brood War (and probably Overwatch) in Korea again along with Kespa (as has been rumored). Most players will switch back to BW, some will retire, a few will probably keep playing SC2 if there is still GSL, but without major teams I kinda doubt GSL will survive either. Not surprising either, not only is Starcraft 2 an inferior game, it also doesn't have the legacy and culture that BW does in Korea. Koreans tend to play the same games for decades, ie Maplestory, Lineage, Sudden Attack and Brood War. This would also explain Blizzard's increased focus on the foreign scene.
Alright you BW-philes should really stop saying that BW is better and that sc2 is a dead game. You guys sound like the exact kind of people we don't want here. Do you want sc2 people to talk bad of BW? Cuz there are plenty of reason why BW is not fun too. Just because it was the best game of its time does not mean it still is now. Seriously please
What some people in this sub dont realize if that if SC2 ends, then BW will end. If there is few new blood coming to sc2 is none going to BW. The scene its just hold by some nostalgics and flash, sure maybe the return of BW will make a small spike of viewers at the beggining but it will not last longer. I've been watching all ASL since afreeca take care of it and I can tell you: it only gets packed when flash plays.
On September 04 2016 01:08 coolman123123 wrote: Beginning of the end for major Starcraft 2 in Korea. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Blizzard start pushing Brood War (and probably Overwatch) in Korea again along with Kespa (as has been rumored). Most players will switch back to BW, some will retire, a few will probably keep playing SC2 if there is still GSL, but without major teams I kinda doubt GSL will survive either. Not surprising either, not only is Starcraft 2 an inferior game, it also doesn't have the legacy and culture that BW does in Korea. Koreans tend to play the same games for decades, ie Maplestory, Lineage, Sudden Attack and Brood War. This would also explain Blizzard's increased focus on the foreign scene.
Alright you BW-philes should really stop saying that BW is better and that sc2 is a dead game. You guys sound like the exact kind of people we don't want here. Do you want sc2 people to talk bad of BW? Cuz there are plenty of reason why BW is not fun too. Just because it was the best game of its time does not mean it still is now. Seriously please
On September 04 2016 01:29 Argonauta wrote: What some people in this sub dont realize if that if SC2 ends, then BW will end. If there is few new blood coming to sc2 is none going to BW. The scene its just hold by some nostalgics and flash, sure maybe the return of BW will make a small spike of viewers at the beggining but it will not last longer. I've been watching all ASL since afreeca take care of it and I can tell you: it only gets packed when flash plays.
I would imagine more people would watch big budget tournaments sanctioned by Kespa and Blizzard. These small BW events still outperform the Kespa run Starcraft 2 Leagues.
Maybe some kind of overwatch tournament? I have no idea how the game works so i don't know if it is viable in a proleague environment
I really hope they don't ditch sc2 This is the only game i follow since moba tournaments suck.
All of my friends switched to league since it is big in Turkey. I've played it until plat1-diamond5 level but it became boring after that. Seriously though if ssl and gsl dies completely i am basically done with esports until a new game comes out
On September 04 2016 01:29 Argonauta wrote: What some people in this sub dont realize if that if SC2 ends, then BW will end. If there is few new blood coming to sc2 is none going to BW. The scene its just hold by some nostalgics and flash, sure maybe the return of BW will make a small spike of viewers at the beggining but it will not last longer. I've been watching all ASL since afreeca take care of it and I can tell you: it only gets packed when flash plays.
On September 04 2016 01:29 Argonauta wrote: What some people in this sub dont realize if that if SC2 ends, then BW will end. If there is few new blood coming to sc2 is none going to BW. The scene its just hold by some nostalgics and flash, sure maybe the return of BW will make a small spike of viewers at the beggining but it will not last longer. I've been watching all ASL since afreeca take care of it and I can tell you: it only gets packed when flash plays.
I mean right now the small bw leagues out perform the big sc2 tournaments in korea, so I kind of doubt that, even more so if blizzard gets behind bw again
Damn that's sad and really sounds like an end... without proleague korean sc2 scene will die out eventually. I hear sc2 is quite popular in China though, so maybe there's still hope in the Chinese?
On September 04 2016 01:46 romson87 wrote: Damn that's sad and really sounds like an end... without proleague korean sc2 scene will die out eventually. I hear sc2 is quite popular in China though, so maybe there's still hope in the Chinese?
Welp didnt take long for BW against SC II and where Kespa should go.
The fun thing is, you should set your bets on Overwatch, this game goes bonkers in Korea, it is the only game of the 3 named games by blizzard that earn them money in korea (and big money too).
Neither BW or SC II will gone big anymore, both can exists in their way (BW as a game driven by popular individual streamers with big history) while SC II is pretty much only driven by Blizzard cash and "hey we got this teamhouses and infrastructe, we should use it"
I never played Overwatched since the beta, I dont watch or care about the game, as I am a CS:GOed person, but if Blizzard and Kespa want to go somewhere fresh, with new players, new talents, new (and much more) viewers, they go to Overwatch.
On September 04 2016 01:46 romson87 wrote: Damn that's sad and really sounds like an end... without proleague korean sc2 scene will die out eventually. I hear sc2 is quite popular in China though, so maybe there's still hope in the Chinese?
We only had 5-6 good chinese players in ~6 years, i doubt it is popular. They have NSL and GPL with some good prize money though
On September 04 2016 01:34 BLinD-RawR wrote: yeah thats why ASL has 3 sponsors.
And that is really cool, but do you think that the people born since 1997 are going to pick BW to play? I love to watch BW dont get me wrong but I just feel that it does not have any appel to young people to play. Starcraft 2? It has sometihng, not as much as other e sports for sure but something.
On September 04 2016 01:44 Ansibled wrote: In this sub?
In the starcraft section of teamliquid forums I mean.
On September 03 2016 23:45 Akara12345 wrote: It's about time. Maybe Brood War will replace it?
itll be interesting if BW makes a comeback. i have no interest in watching it personally, but it would probably create hype that would draw a lot of people in. the problem as i see it is that the BW fanbase would be eating itself inside out - there's almost no chance of drawing in viewers who weren't either around for BW or simply curious enough because of SC2, and that's a limited base. SC2 is fighting a losing battle against other esports, but it at least had its own modern appeal. no one from the current generation is going to want to sit down and watch a game that looks like BW unless the HD remaster is mindblowing
cue a thousand insane BW acolytes telling me how it's the greatest game ever and even in 500 years people will appreciate its beauty, but i'm talking about reality
My first time watching Brood War was in 2009, not long before the SC2 beta came out. Sure, the graphics were completely outdated, but what made me watch a lot of the VODS that GomTV had to offer back in the day was the quality of the cast and the quality of the games played. Flash in SC2 is nothing compared to the monster he was in BW.
It might just appeal to people who are interested in eSports in general, not just a single game.
The end of a season always has signs and talk that resemble to the end of an era, and you can interpret this ending words straight (it's the end of the season) or go "cryptic" and theorycraft and be like : are they announcing the end of all sc2?
Nothing can say one or the other is wrong, so better go for the one that makes more sense : they're just saying the season is other. That doesn't mean sc2 proleague will be there next year though, context seems ominous...
On September 04 2016 02:29 Thouhastmail wrote: I`m the one who believes SC2 should be more like BW-ish. But ASL? nay..
Whats wrong with ASL?
Too volatile. See this picture; It`s Ro.4 after Flash dropped. There are 7 people at the venue.
This is a good rebuttal of all the "lets go back to bw" fans.
Sure, there will always be a fanbase for it, but is there any reason to believe that it will do better than sc2 now? Nothing i have seen or read can back that up.
And i think i am part of the group of people who only started watching competitive SC2 and never knew about the competitive BW scene.
If SC2 PL gets dropped and goes back to BW, there is no way i watch it. I am just not interested in it. So you can't even bank on sc2 fans all going back to support the BW scene.
On September 04 2016 01:46 romson87 wrote: Damn that's sad and really sounds like an end... without proleague korean sc2 scene will die out eventually. I hear sc2 is quite popular in China though, so maybe there's still hope in the Chinese?
I doubt that SC2 is even close to WC3 in China
SC2 is, in fact, bigger than WC3 in China in terms of player base and audience right now.
I'd watch BW Proleague but I'd rate them just ending it more likely than a switch to that. Only really started watching high level BW after I discovered SC2 and getting into it wasn't effortless even though I don't mind the graphics and can see that it's a great game as is SC2.
So yeah, I feel it's most likely that the majority of the people interested in SC2 would not transfer to BW just like the opposite didn't happen in Korea. Tastosis has been able to get somewhat decent viewership for ASL so I guess there's some small hope of retaining an okayish one though.
On September 04 2016 02:29 Thouhastmail wrote: I`m the one who believes SC2 should be more like BW-ish. But ASL? nay..
Whats wrong with ASL?
Too volatile. See this picture; It`s Ro.4 after Flash dropped. There are 7 people at the venue.
This is a good rebuttal of all the "lets go back to bw" fans.
Sure, there will always be a fanbase for it, but is there any reason to believe that it will do better than sc2 now? Nothing i have seen or read can back that up.
And i think i am part of the group of people who only started watching competitive SC2 and never knew about the competitive BW scene.
If SC2 PL gets dropped and goes back to BW, there is no way i watch it. I am just not interested in it. So you can't even bank on sc2 fans all going back to support the BW scene.
lol take 2 of the the most least popular sc2 gamers and tell them to play in ro8 in a game not backed by kespa and blizzard and lets see what happens. I believe the crowd was always this low even during 2009 of bw when some random progamers played
would suck if it end, wouldnt be to surprised, but would suck cause sc2 is finally getting to the point were it can be really good and the huge patch coming soon making mech strong and other cool shit that can make it a great game finally(We Will see,. but there is potential), so it would be really bad if one of the best tournaments just goes away. sad that it took blizzard to start fixing there game 6 years later since they wanted our money for 3 games rather than make a great game at the start.
On September 04 2016 02:29 Thouhastmail wrote: I`m the one who believes SC2 should be more like BW-ish. But ASL? nay..
Whats wrong with ASL?
Too volatile. See this picture; It`s Ro.4 after Flash dropped. There are 7 people at the venue.
This is a good rebuttal of all the "lets go back to bw" fans.
Sure, there will always be a fanbase for it, but is there any reason to believe that it will do better than sc2 now? Nothing i have seen or read can back that up.
And i think i am part of the group of people who only started watching competitive SC2 and never knew about the competitive BW scene.
If SC2 PL gets dropped and goes back to BW, there is no way i watch it. I am just not interested in it. So you can't even bank on sc2 fans all going back to support the BW scene.
lol take 2 of the the most least popular sc2 gamers and tell them to play in ro8 in a game not backed by kespa and blizzard and lets see what happens. I believe the crowd was always this low even during 2009 of bw when some random progamers played
I don't know if this means anything, but hey it's always fun to speculate i guess.
Korean sc2 without proleague would be extremely bland to say the least. Does have bw (hd) the potential to get big (enough) in korea again? Who knows, i just know that the korean youtube vods of ASL get around 30k viewers while sc2 gets like 3k.
Overwatch might be a thing in the future, but i still think it sucks as viewing experience so i don't know if havign fun in pc bangs is enough to sustain an esports scene. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.
edit: considering that waxangel opened the thread shit is serious though, damn
It would suck for KeSPA to throw all the primarily SC2 players under the bus and go back to a BW Proleague. I'd hope that there would be dual leagues or that Afreeca would at least revive the GSTL.
Would make sense. Rosters are already pretty thin and the offseason retirements won't make it better. CJ or MVP will probably disband over the offseason, and Kespa might not want a 6-team Proleague. Looks like the lack of new blood in SC2 is finally catching up to it.
Hm, due to the time it play usually I never got to watch sc2 proleague, so this sucks, but I couldn't watch it anyway :/. I like both bw and sc2 so I do hope they can do one of the two games next year and not ditch both.
On September 04 2016 04:25 corydoras wrote: What about previous years? I never paid attention to this but did they announce the next season at the conclusion of the finals?
Last year the new season was announced to happen at the day of the finals. Although later on the KeSPA chairman said in an interview that it was hard to get a main sponsor, so maybe KeSPA is just being careful not announcing anything before it's truly set in stone this year.
On September 04 2016 04:25 corydoras wrote: What about previous years? I never paid attention to this but did they announce the next season at the conclusion of the finals?
Last year the new season was announced to happen at the day of the finals. Although later on the KeSPA chairman said in an interview that it was hard to get a main sponsor, so maybe KeSPA is just being careful not announcing anything before it's truly set in stone this year.
On September 04 2016 02:29 Thouhastmail wrote: I`m the one who believes SC2 should be more like BW-ish. But ASL? nay..
Whats wrong with ASL?
Too volatile. See this picture; It`s Ro.4 after Flash dropped. There are 7 people at the venue.
This is a good rebuttal of all the "lets go back to bw" fans.
Sure, there will always be a fanbase for it, but is there any reason to believe that it will do better than sc2 now? Nothing i have seen or read can back that up.
And i think i am part of the group of people who only started watching competitive SC2 and never knew about the competitive BW scene.
If SC2 PL gets dropped and goes back to BW, there is no way i watch it. I am just not interested in it. So you can't even bank on sc2 fans all going back to support the BW scene.
lol take 2 of the the most least popular sc2 gamers and tell them to play in ro8 in a game not backed by kespa and blizzard and lets see what happens. I believe the crowd was always this low even during 2009 of bw when some random progamers played
random gamers that accidentally made the ro4?
It would be pretty much drain the scene out of sponsors / team houses and only the B teamers who did not switch keep playing. Like bringing "Guilty" (Samsung) vs "Odin" (MVP) RO4. Those B teamers got their level up while grinding without a scene to back them up. Since they did not make crowd in early days they won't be able to do now.
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
I think the best for Blizzard would be BW HD for Korea and SC2 internationally. That way the whole "korean OP" ends for good in SC2 and will help its popularity a bit.
I think that as long as it's well-produced, with the right commentary (Tastosis), then HDBW tournaments can catch on with foreign audiences. I've never played/watched much competitive BW (started in SC2 beta) but I've really been enjoying the ASL since it's quite accessible.
Can't say BW is a bad game but I just can't stand playing it, if sc2 goes I go with it, hopefully it is just some kind of PR statement or at least a proleague with both game.
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
I think the best for Blizzard would be BW HD for Korea and SC2 internationally. That way the whole "korean OP" ends for good in SC2 and will help its popularity a bit.
Strongly disagree, I was willing to give it a chance in the name of making Starcraft more popular but I'm starting to think the SC2 region lock experiment has run it's course... It certainly hasn't seemed to improve viewership. Knowing Blizzard they're sticking with it for another year at least though and that is a shame.
Koreans need to be involved in SC2, their play is just too much better for them not to.
You know, the interesting thing is that this immediately leads one to assume it's from the perspective of KeSPA and other Proleague organizers looking back on the past of Proleague and saying goodbye. And not the perspective of the teams looking back at the season and stating their desire to do better in the next season, which it could very well also be supposed to mean.
It's strange to see people saying they can't imagine SC2 without ProLeague, and that it'll be lesser without it, when the strongest SC2 ever was (both in popularity and viewership) was when ProLeague wasn't around - all we had was GSL and, occasionally, GSTL.
It'll be sad if PL doesn't come back, sure, but SC2 is hardly doing well at the moment anyway. The way things are is not popular, and it's not a sustainable situation.
I wonder sometimes, if KESPA had never come over to SC2 and Blizzard hadn't started meddling as much, would we still be in the situation we're in now? I'm not so sure. I guess it's always easier to look back with rose tinted glasses, but the competitive scene now bears very little resemblance to the scene when SC2 was truly hot.
Like it or not though (honestly, I don't really find it enjoyable to watch) ProLeague now pretty much props up the Korean SC2 scene and without it things will likely collapse rapidly. But then, with things as they are, can SC2 really be saved regardless? Irreparable damage has already been done...
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
I think the best for Blizzard would be BW HD for Korea and SC2 internationally. That way the whole "korean OP" ends for good in SC2 and will help its popularity a bit.
Sure hope that's not the case. Team competition is the most fun and it does not work outside of Korea.
I stopped watching Bw because it became very stale watching the same players playing the same stuff over and over again. Then Sc2 came and it was a hell of a ride for 5 years. But Sc2 has the same problem now as BW had 5 years ago: lack of new blood. But the changes to the game keep it exciting. But an unchanging starcraft with a static aging player pool, duh.
Is there actually any real evidence for a bw proleague? I know that there was this one article, but korean speakers said it's not really legit. I mean it depends on BW HD i guess?
People mentioning that it doesn't have newcomers, i mean afaik the ASL qualifiers had like over 500 people participating. So i would assume that there are lots and lots of people in the semi pro zone (or near it). Anyone has stats for the fish server?
I mean todays crowd at the PL finals was kinda okish? Not 100% sure because only saw it on stream but it didn't look too bad. The problem is that vod numbers seem to be pretty meh (a few thousand for the average gsl/ssl/pl vod). With PL having problem to find sponsors this season it kinda looks bad for next year :/
I am almost sure certain people in this community know more already, cmon guys tease some stuff or something -.- You can also pm me
On September 04 2016 07:17 Lordanubis wrote: It's strange to see people saying they can't imagine SC2 without ProLeague, and that it'll be lesser without it, when the strongest SC2 ever was (both in popularity and viewership) was when ProLeague wasn't around - all we had was GSL and, occasionally, GSTL.
It'll be sad if PL doesn't come back, sure, but SC2 is hardly doing well at the moment anyway. The way things are is not popular, and it's not a sustainable situation.
I wonder sometimes, if KESPA had never come over to SC2 and Blizzard hadn't started meddling as much, would we still be in the situation we're in now? I'm not so sure. I guess it's always easier to look back with rose tinted glasses, but the competitive scene now bears very little resemblance to the scene when SC2 was truly hot.
Like it or not though (honestly, I don't really find it enjoyable to watch) ProLeague now pretty much props up the Korean SC2 scene and without it things will likely collapse rapidly. But then, with things as they are, can SC2 really be saved regardless? Irreparable damage has already been done...
I don't think it's irreparable. Sc2 is still pretty big and well established. If anything, as long as we keep the passion there will be a day when RTS or similar genres become popular again like it was in Smash bros I believe. We just have to love the game for our own reasons and hope for best
On September 03 2016 23:45 Akara12345 wrote: It's about time. Maybe Brood War will replace it?
itll be interesting if BW makes a comeback. i have no interest in watching it personally, but it would probably create hype that would draw a lot of people in. the problem as i see it is that the BW fanbase would be eating itself inside out - there's almost no chance of drawing in viewers who weren't either around for BW or simply curious enough because of SC2, and that's a limited base. SC2 is fighting a losing battle against other esports, but it at least had its own modern appeal. no one from the current generation is going to want to sit down and watch a game that looks like BW unless the HD remaster is mindblowing
cue a thousand insane BW acolytes telling me how it's the greatest game ever and even in 500 years people will appreciate its beauty, but i'm talking about reality
I always like it when people use terms like "reality" to justify whatever on earth they just said. It's like saying "let's be honest". What you said is still bollocks. Good job on constructing a bona fide "reality" by typing a paragraph to yourself though.
On September 03 2016 23:45 Akara12345 wrote: It's about time. Maybe Brood War will replace it?
itll be interesting if BW makes a comeback. i have no interest in watching it personally, but it would probably create hype that would draw a lot of people in. the problem as i see it is that the BW fanbase would be eating itself inside out - there's almost no chance of drawing in viewers who weren't either around for BW or simply curious enough because of SC2, and that's a limited base. SC2 is fighting a losing battle against other esports, but it at least had its own modern appeal. no one from the current generation is going to want to sit down and watch a game that looks like BW unless the HD remaster is mindblowing
cue a thousand insane BW acolytes telling me how it's the greatest game ever and even in 500 years people will appreciate its beauty, but i'm talking about reality
I always like it when people use terms like "reality" to justify whatever on earth they just said. It's like saying "let's be honest". What you said is still bollocks. Good job on constructing a bona fide "reality" by typing a paragraph to yourself though.
I think his paragraph is okay. Why do you not think so? All you did was complain about his use of the term "reality" in a joking closing remark... But I do think that there are crowds for seemingly outdated games. SSB:Melee has made a really impressive comeback. And really, it was never that big to begin with. Now? It's probably the most popular fighting game at this point. Maybe second to SF-V? Maybe..??? And lots of BW players still have hefty fanbases.
I really do not think PL is going to move back to Broodwar, though. There simply is not enough infrastructure there for a team league of this scale. There aren't even teams, really...
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple.
And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well.
I have no idea if this closing actually means anything, but lets pretend it does and its a goodbye because PL is shutting down. Shouldn't they have informed or forewarned the main teams/coaches of this likelihood/possibility. If its sure enough to warrant a closing with that kind of message surely they have informed the teams/coaches?
If the coaches/teams have been informed of the end of SC2 PL why was the JAGW coach fishing so hard for a sponsor for their team? The pieces doesn't fit, call me an ignorant dreamer if you will but I will believe in PL 2017.
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple.
And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well.
BW itself will be bigger but PL won't and deffinitively not as big as SC2, BW was nowhere near as big as SC2 world wide, BW is bigger in korea yes but in the rest of the world no, SC2 its actually much bigger than BW was because of that, except WCG there weren't any tournaments outside korea, theres no way you would have things like DH and IEM in china, poland,etc and things like HSC, Iron squid, etc with BW it just wasn't that popular outside of korea.
On September 04 2016 09:09 Shuffleblade wrote: I have no idea if this closing actually means anything, but lets pretend it does and its a goodbye because PL is shutting down. Shouldn't they have informed or forewarned the main teams/coaches of this likelihood/possibility. If its sure enough to warrant a closing with that kind of message surely they have informed the teams/coaches?
If the coaches/teams have been informed of the end of SC2 PL why was the JAGW coach fishing so hard for a sponsor for their team? The pieces doesn't fit, call me an ignorant dreamer if you will but I will believe in PL 2017.
Let's pretend it will be a bw proleague (i actually don't think so). Then that would still apply, no? JinAir would be kinda fucked though, not gonna lie.
On September 04 2016 09:02 horrypotter wrote: I really hope Korean SC2 player can move to BW smoothly. I won't watch BW proleague, but I hope my SC2 favorite player can make a good result.
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy.
If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure.
On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy.
If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure.
Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc
As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc
I love Maru, herO, Dark, TY. I heard TY/herO was good player in BW too, but I don' know Maru/Dark...
herO wasn't good in BW, he played zerg though. TY surely was decent with potential, never really got far in individual tournaments though. Maru and Dark never played bw afaik. Would be interesting to see how these guys would do though (not that i think a forced switch in any direction is a good thing though)
On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy.
If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure.
Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc
As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc
I think Korea has different standards regarding this. In the end, you have bad mario kart clones being televised.
But you might be right, the PC bang culture might change or get smaller. But if the korean ads at spotv are any indication, it's really just about most played games.
please let there be sc2 or bw proleague please let there be sc2 or bw proleague please let there be sc2 or bw proleague please let there be sc2 or bw proleague please let there be sc2 or bw proleague please let there be sc2 or bw proleague
overwatch can suck a deep fried flash frozen **** stuffed in a bag of **** microwaved and marinaded in **** juice.
Blizzard is everything about money, they saw how Microsoft milked with little effort its Age of Empire franchise by the HD remake and they just want to do the same with BW, it could be a hit in Korea, a massive hit, lets face it, Korea was never into SC2, but Blizz couldnt let the game die there so fast because you know they "forced" an entire organization (Kespa) to move to SC2., now they are by themselves supporting SC2 in Korea because they have to show the masses interest in supporting their games (for the good of Overwatch), SC2 is for Blizz only an investment of marketing right now, and if they can make the same milking the new BW HD why not?.
On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy.
If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure.
Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc
As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc
I think Korea has different standards regarding this. In the end, you have bad mario kart clones being televised.
But you might be right, the PC bang culture might change or get smaller. But if the korean ads at spotv are any indication, it's really just about most played games.
I am not necessarily talking about the quality of a game, i think overwatch is pretty mediocre but that is not the point. It's more about how easy the game is to follow as an esports. If you watch the match is it easy to understand what is happening, is it easy to get the narrative of the match? How easy it is to see the skill of the players. I think OW fails at most of these things pretty badly atm, especially if we compare it to other successful esports.
I mean i absolutely think that there will be an OW tournament in the near future (probably on OGN) simply because it is big in pc bangs and general interest is there. But if people actually like to watch it? That has to be seen i think.
I enjoy playing Overwatch but I have no real interest in watching pros playing it. I haven't played SC2 in five years but I still enjoy watching pros play it.
What this thread seems to forget is that proleague and kespa care about their bottom line, if they think that catering to the bigger bw fanbase in korea is better money thats what they'll do, if they think the foreign sc2 scene will produce more money they'll go with that. They may go with broodwar and overwatch, and then go to HDBW and OW or maybe do that but with SC2 instead of HDBW. If competitive farmville makes them the most money, that's what they'll go with. They care far less about scenes and far more about how those scenes make them money.
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple.
And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well.
Dunno, not that many people care about BW now compare to 1996, just watch Quake, pretty much in the same situation, old popular game with a strong esport history (not as strong as BW but still) but the number for Quakecon are still very low with today streaming capacity. Meele is the only old game that has perfom well, for now it is realy the exception not the norm. I don't see why someone that don't watch sc2 is gonna watch a game that for a good part if them came out before they were born or when they were still young children and on top of that a game that they can't buy or make work that easy. Some will probably do it at first mostly coming from sc2 but I can't see it having number anywhere close to sc2 outside of Korea in the long run. At some point you need people actually playing the game for it to be popular and sc2 still dominate that category.
Could be wrong of course, I hope for all of you bw fans.
On September 04 2016 10:10 Jaaaaasper wrote: What this thread seems to forget is that proleague and kespa care about their bottom line, if they think that catering to the bigger bw fanbase in korea is better money thats what they'll do, if they think the foreign sc2 scene will produce more money they'll go with that. They may go with broodwar and overwatch, and then go to HDBW and OW or maybe do that but with SC2 instead of HDBW. If competitive farmville makes them the most money, that's what they'll go with. They care far less about scenes and far more about how those scenes make them money.
I don't think KeSPA cares about *making* money, they're funded with tax money. Now, obviously they still care about money to some extent because big things like the Proleague need to be sponsored to work but just saying they're not at all looking looking for what they could make money off of.
On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy.
If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure.
Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc
As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc
I think Korea has different standards regarding this. In the end, you have bad mario kart clones being televised.
But you might be right, the PC bang culture might change or get smaller. But if the korean ads at spotv are any indication, it's really just about most played games.
I am not necessarily talking about the quality of a game, i think overwatch is pretty mediocre but that is not the point. It's more about how easy the game is to follow as an esports. If you watch the match is it easy to understand what is happening, is it easy to get the narrative of the match? How easy it is to see the skill of the players. I think OW fails at most of these things pretty badly atm, especially if we compare it to other successful esports.
I mean i absolutely think that there will be an OW tournament in the near future (probably on OGN) simply because it is big in pc bangs and general interest is there. But if people actually like to watch it? That has to be seen i think.
Based on how esports has progressed at this point I'm pretty convinced that people will watch anything that they're playing at the time... Overwatch is anyway less of a chore to watch for me than a Dota clone and I've not even played the game myself.
Just putting it out there that while BW is popular in PC Bangs, most people playing BW are playing Fastest Map or other UMS maps. Not competitive Melee.
On September 04 2016 10:10 Jaaaaasper wrote: What this thread seems to forget is that proleague and kespa care about their bottom line, if they think that catering to the bigger bw fanbase in korea is better money thats what they'll do, if they think the foreign sc2 scene will produce more money they'll go with that. They may go with broodwar and overwatch, and then go to HDBW and OW or maybe do that but with SC2 instead of HDBW. If competitive farmville makes them the most money, that's what they'll go with. They care far less about scenes and far more about how those scenes make them money.
I don't think KeSPA cares about *making* money, they're funded with tax money. Now, obviously they still care about money to some extent because big things like the Proleague need to be sponsored to work but just saying they're not at all looking looking for what they could make money off of.
On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote: The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW.
iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch
I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy.
If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure.
Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc
As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc
I think Korea has different standards regarding this. In the end, you have bad mario kart clones being televised.
But you might be right, the PC bang culture might change or get smaller. But if the korean ads at spotv are any indication, it's really just about most played games.
I am not necessarily talking about the quality of a game, i think overwatch is pretty mediocre but that is not the point. It's more about how easy the game is to follow as an esports. If you watch the match is it easy to understand what is happening, is it easy to get the narrative of the match? How easy it is to see the skill of the players. I think OW fails at most of these things pretty badly atm, especially if we compare it to other successful esports.
I mean i absolutely think that there will be an OW tournament in the near future (probably on OGN) simply because it is big in pc bangs and general interest is there. But if people actually like to watch it? That has to be seen i think.
Based on how esports has progressed at this point I'm pretty convinced that people will watch anything that they're playing at the time... Overwatch is anyway less of a chore to watch for me than a Dota clone and I've not even played the game myself.
Exactly, I know it sounds a little douchy but the reality is that eSports isn't 100% decided by quality (regardless of playing or watching).. It's mostly based on a game's popularity regardless of how that is achieved. This is especially true in Korea where they have tournaments for pretty much everything popular.
Companies use "eSports" to advertise their game all the time and it has benefitted almost all related companies to jump on that train.
So if OW nears 40% market share, kespa would be stupid to not pick it up. Even if that means that it won't be the same experience BW offers.
I've been expecting this since February. There's no money left and Koreans are more interested in watching the old boys play BW. With fresh blood coming in Fish Server I predict another Brood War era.
I wish the SC2 community best of luck. I hope it finds its place somewhere in the foreign scene.
Everyone knows I'm very active in the BW scene, but I've watched almost every korean GSL finals and all of the PL finals. I'd be extremely sad to see them go at the cost of BW reviving. For all pure SC2 fans, this is the somber feeling most BW fans felt half a decade ago. If you truly love your game and stand by it, then it will never go away. BW is proof of that.
On September 04 2016 11:09 WinterViewbot420 wrote: I've been expecting this since February. There's no money left and Koreans are more interested in watching the old boys play BW. With fresh blood coming in Fish Server I predict another Brood War era.
I wish the SC2 community best of luck. I hope it finds its place somewhere in the foreign scene.
So what are the fish stats? Playerbase etc? Do you know?
On September 04 2016 11:15 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone knows I'm very active in the BW scene, but I've watched almost every korean GSL finals and all of the PL finals. I'd be extremely sad to see them go at the cost of BW reviving. For all pure SC2 fans, this is the somber feeling most BW fans felt half a decade ago. If you truly love your game and stand by it, then it will never go away. BW is proof of that.
I will be quite honest, if the ecosystem in korea doesn't allow for sc2 to be played then that's simply the case and people have to accept that. Personally i would love bw and sc2 to be a thing, with team league and individual league but as i said before i doubt that's really doable because both games are rts games fighting for a very similar audience.
At the same time i still don't see if bw really can make a comeback, BW HD will be the decider here i feel like. As i said before there surely are people who know more already, pm me haha
On September 04 2016 07:17 Lordanubis wrote: It's strange to see people saying they can't imagine SC2 without ProLeague, and that it'll be lesser without it, when the strongest SC2 ever was (both in popularity and viewership) was when ProLeague wasn't around - all we had was GSL and, occasionally, GSTL.
It'll be sad if PL doesn't come back, sure, but SC2 is hardly doing well at the moment anyway. The way things are is not popular, and it's not a sustainable situation.
I wonder sometimes, if KESPA had never come over to SC2 and Blizzard hadn't started meddling as much, would we still be in the situation we're in now? I'm not so sure. I guess it's always easier to look back with rose tinted glasses, but the competitive scene now bears very little resemblance to the scene when SC2 was truly hot.
Like it or not though (honestly, I don't really find it enjoyable to watch) ProLeague now pretty much props up the Korean SC2 scene and without it things will likely collapse rapidly. But then, with things as they are, can SC2 really be saved regardless? Irreparable damage has already been done...
I don't think it's irreparable. Sc2 is still pretty big and well established. If anything, as long as we keep the passion there will be a day when RTS or similar genres become popular again like it was in Smash bros I believe. We just have to love the game for our own reasons and hope for best
SC2 can't be fixed by the design team that broke it.
Can we get some game designers who understand game design?
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple.
And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well.
BW itself will be bigger but PL won't and deffinitively not as big as SC2, BW was nowhere near as big as SC2 world wide, BW is bigger in korea yes but in the rest of the world no, SC2 its actually much bigger than BW was because of that, except WCG there weren't any tournaments outside korea, theres no way you would have things like DH and IEM in china, poland,etc and things like HSC, Iron squid, etc with BW it just wasn't that popular outside of korea.
We can't compare raw numbers.
But we can compare %s.
The % of BW players in terms of PC gamers is MUCH higher than SC2 can ever dream off in the western world, like everybody in my school either players BW or CS on school computers. Our school computers had BW and CS pre-installed.
And we have to compare TOTAL raw numbers, the TOTAL amount of people that have played SC1 is SOOO much more than SC2 players, SC2 just can't compare.
On September 04 2016 11:15 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone knows I'm very active in the BW scene, but I've watched almost every korean GSL finals and all of the PL finals. I'd be extremely sad to see them go at the cost of BW reviving. For all pure SC2 fans, this is the somber feeling most BW fans felt half a decade ago. If you truly love your game and stand by it, then it will never go away. BW is proof of that.
On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote: ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should.
Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague
I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have
Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW.
Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple.
And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well.
BW itself will be bigger but PL won't and deffinitively not as big as SC2, BW was nowhere near as big as SC2 world wide, BW is bigger in korea yes but in the rest of the world no, SC2 its actually much bigger than BW was because of that, except WCG there weren't any tournaments outside korea, theres no way you would have things like DH and IEM in china, poland,etc and things like HSC, Iron squid, etc with BW it just wasn't that popular outside of korea.
We can't compare raw numbers.
But we can compare %s.
The % of BW players in terms of PC gamers is MUCH higher than SC2 can ever dream off in the western world, like everybody in my school either players BW or CS on school computers. Our school computers had BW and CS pre-installed.
And we have to compare TOTAL raw numbers, the TOTAL amount of people that have played SC1 is SOOO much more than SC2 players, SC2 just can't compare.
In Korea that might be true, but it's not outside of Korea. Sc2 was more popular outside of Korea then BW ever was. I read (no stats to prove this, just seen a few people state this) that SC2 is doing even better then WC3 in China right now (again this could be wrong and the people saying this making it up idk).
Both games are good and I do want a BW comeback in Korea, but I also hope SC2 can be right beside it.
The problem for SC2 is that even with that all world wide foreign market, is small, the sponsors are there when you have an audience, but SC2 is really shrinking, in Korea has never been alive, but in the foreign department right now is only Blizzard who is interested in pull big tournaments, one exception: that Alibaba thing. The foreign players must be very grateful for all that money that Blizz is throwing to them with the region lock.
P.S: Jaedong was the "zerg" in BW, watching him playing was a wow thing.
A fragmented player base is not a good thing. If SC2 dies off in Korea completely then the game itself will take a massive hit in popularity over the subsequent years. Sponsors will dwindle and the player base will shrink further to the point of being completely unviable as an esport
I watch SC2 as a competitive sport. When the best of the best leave so will i and many other viewers
On September 04 2016 14:35 Shinokuki wrote: lol at foreign views being larger. 5000 foreign view for bw and like 20k for sc2? Well guess what MAX 300k viewers for bw in korea.
If BW could get the viewers as you said, BW proleague and OSL would already revived without any support. 300K? Jesus even Baseball has 70-100K internet views per game. (excluding TV ratings) Considering there are 5 games per day, it's 350~400K overall.
On September 04 2016 14:35 Shinokuki wrote: lol at foreign views being larger. 5000 foreign view for bw and like 20k for sc2? Well guess what MAX 300k viewers for bw in korea.
If BW could get the viewers as you said, BW proleague and OSL would already revived without any support. 300K? Jesus even Baseball has 70-100K internet views per game. (excluding TV ratings) Considering there are 5 games per day, it's 350~400K overall.
Not with Blizzard killing it personally in 2012. How do you expect OSL and PL when all those were taken for SC2 and then OSL just stopped after two seasons. Also, lets not forget that the super stars (Stork / FanTasy / Flash / Bisu / Jaedong.. etc) all were taken for SC2 (Those who bring most viewers). There is no BW scene left to grow new super stars after that disaster.
Perhaps we can see what will really happen in as early as five days. The ASL finals happens then, and it's rumored that BW:HD will be announced in September. What better place for that than during the ASL.
Fuck it my collarbone is broken and I can't afford surgery or pain pills, I'll write this shit.
I'm glad you guys are seeing the end of your game because as a member of the BW community I can't go anywhere without being called a BW elitist, or a BW sucker, or some other offensive term that says I'm supporting a dead game. David Kim is nice but he's the worst balance designer I've ever seen and the game's fucked up at such a low level there's no fixing it without an absolute overhaul, which after six years and two expansions will never happen. I can't say a thing bad about SC2 on the StarCraft subreddit or the SC2 part of TL without having people shit on me. I stopped trying to talk about it here and Reddit just loves to hate on BW as if it's a SC2-only subreddit. SC2 is dying because David Kim is an idiot and instead of taking it into your own hands and breaking the EULA just like Fish, iCCup, Brain, Netcraft, Amazon, or any other Brood War server you guys kept taking it up the ass, while complaining about having to take it up the ass then doing nothing about it. You waited for Blizzard to do something.
I know not everybody is like this and I truly do wish the best of luck for StarCraft II as a game, but as a community you guys are some of the most entitled, elitist, and laziest people I've ever had the distaste of seeing and being a part of. You guys don't even let people talk about other games as if it's a sin to play anything but SC2, even if it's fucking Mario or some shit.
On September 04 2016 17:23 WinterViewbot420 wrote: Fuck it my collarbone is broken and I can't afford surgery or pain pills, I'll write this shit.
I'm glad you guys are seeing the end of your game because as a member of the BW community I can't go anywhere without being called a BW elitist, or a BW sucker, or some other offensive term that says I'm supporting a dead game. David Kim is nice but he's the worst balance designer I've ever seen and the game's fucked up at such a low level there's no fixing it without an absolute overhaul, which after six years and two expansions will never happen. I can't say a thing bad about SC2 on the StarCraft subreddit or the SC2 part of TL without having people shit on me. I stopped trying to talk about it here and Reddit just loves to hate on BW as if it's a SC2-only subreddit. SC2 is dying because David Kim is an idiot and instead of taking it into your own hands and breaking the EULA just like Fish, iCCup, Brain, Netcraft, Amazon, or any other Brood War server you guys kept taking it up the ass, while complaining about having to take it up the ass then doing nothing about it. You waited for Blizzard to do something.
I know not everybody is like this and I truly do wish the best of luck for StarCraft II as a game, but as a community you guys are some of the most entitled, elitist, and laziest people I've ever had the distaste of seeing and being a part of. You guys don't even let people talk about other games as if it's a sin to play anything but SC2, even if it's fucking Mario or some shit.
Just want to state, you are being one of the same entitled elitist people right now by doing the exact same thing you are accusing sc2 people of doing. lol I don't get why people like you (or elitists in general) can't just stfu and let people enjoy both games without having to hate on one you don't like.
On September 04 2016 17:13 mantequilla wrote: maybe when big tournaments end, sc2 can get a big overhaul without the fear of breaking balance
isn't that when the new patch is supposed to hit?
or at least post blizzcon.
On September 04 2016 17:23 WinterViewbot420 wrote: Fuck it my collarbone is broken and I can't afford surgery or pain pills, I'll write this shit.
I'm glad you guys are seeing the end of your game because as a member of the BW community I can't go anywhere without being called a BW elitist, or a BW sucker, or some other offensive term that says I'm supporting a dead game. David Kim is nice but he's the worst balance designer I've ever seen and the game's fucked up at such a low level there's no fixing it without an absolute overhaul, which after six years and two expansions will never happen. I can't say a thing bad about SC2 on the StarCraft subreddit or the SC2 part of TL without having people shit on me. I stopped trying to talk about it here and Reddit just loves to hate on BW as if it's a SC2-only subreddit. SC2 is dying because David Kim is an idiot and instead of taking it into your own hands and breaking the EULA just like Fish, iCCup, Brain, Netcraft, Amazon, or any other Brood War server you guys kept taking it up the ass, while complaining about having to take it up the ass then doing nothing about it. You waited for Blizzard to do something.
I know not everybody is like this and I truly do wish the best of luck for StarCraft II as a game, but as a community you guys are some of the most entitled, elitist, and laziest people I've ever had the distaste of seeing and being a part of. You guys don't even let people talk about other games as if it's a sin to play anything but SC2, even if it's fucking Mario or some shit.
Well, if Proleague ends, we will finally see all the good Koreans in IEM, DH and all international tournaments. Imagine seeing there EG.sOs, Millenium.Maru, Expert.ByuN or Liquid.herO!!!
Why? Because: 1. I can't imagine Blizzard will stop sponsoring foreign WCS events in 2017. This would mean, they attracted several students to interrupt their studies and go progamer full time and one year later they would be in a scene with no money, no tournaments ... they will continue to push SC2 into the tournaments for one year more for sure.
2. Without a ProLeague and meaningful money in Korean competitions, what reason would the TOP Koreans have to stay in Korea, if there are still reasonable money to be earned abroad? Some will retire, go to military ... but why leave it completely when there are still good money to be earned (point 1)? And I can't imagine the European / US teamhouses would refuse each one TOP Korean into their team ... Also the visa issues should not be that bad if True managed to do that ...
3. Anyway, I would much more prefer Proleague 2017 still existing ...
On September 04 2016 17:23 WinterViewbot420 wrote: Fuck it my collarbone is broken and I can't afford surgery or pain pills, I'll write this shit.
I'm glad you guys are seeing the end of your game because as a member of the BW community I can't go anywhere without being called a BW elitist, or a BW sucker, or some other offensive term that says I'm supporting a dead game. David Kim is nice but he's the worst balance designer I've ever seen and the game's fucked up at such a low level there's no fixing it without an absolute overhaul, which after six years and two expansions will never happen. I can't say a thing bad about SC2 on the StarCraft subreddit or the SC2 part of TL without having people shit on me. I stopped trying to talk about it here and Reddit just loves to hate on BW as if it's a SC2-only subreddit. SC2 is dying because David Kim is an idiot and instead of taking it into your own hands and breaking the EULA just like Fish, iCCup, Brain, Netcraft, Amazon, or any other Brood War server you guys kept taking it up the ass, while complaining about having to take it up the ass then doing nothing about it. You waited for Blizzard to do something.
I know not everybody is like this and I truly do wish the best of luck for StarCraft II as a game, but as a community you guys are some of the most entitled, elitist, and laziest people I've ever had the distaste of seeing and being a part of. You guys don't even let people talk about other games as if it's a sin to play anything but SC2, even if it's fucking Mario or some shit.
On September 04 2016 17:38 xuanzue wrote: my prediction is that the BW HD will be F2P (or really cheap). And the UI improvements from SC2 will stay, so more than 12 units will be selected.
CSGO started really slow and now has amazing numbers, maybe blizzard wants something similar.
unlimited unit selection was possible even back then, it was an intentional design choice to limit it to 12 which means they most likely won't be changing it.
Why is everyone begging about 12 unit selection? Like unlimited selection in BW engine HD or not would be broken af... I play BW for fun from time to time and its actually fun to select limited amount of units and send them elsewhere... but i still like SC2 more...
Also all this crap is double edge sword... you let koreans play in NA and EU and NA/EU players will retire and stop trying... you dont? Well Korean SC2 will maybe die... so yeah u can't fix this probably
On September 04 2016 17:13 mantequilla wrote: maybe when big tournaments end, sc2 can get a big overhaul without the fear of breaking balance
Its happening now . The "avilo" patch is in the works. A patch designed for low apm players which when combined with F2 will allow foreigners to finally compete at the highest level
On September 04 2016 07:17 Lordanubis wrote: It's strange to see people saying they can't imagine SC2 without ProLeague, and that it'll be lesser without it, when the strongest SC2 ever was (both in popularity and viewership) was when ProLeague wasn't around - all we had was GSL and, occasionally, GSTL.
It'll be sad if PL doesn't come back, sure, but SC2 is hardly doing well at the moment anyway. The way things are is not popular, and it's not a sustainable situation.
I wonder sometimes, if KESPA had never come over to SC2 and Blizzard hadn't started meddling as much, would we still be in the situation we're in now? I'm not so sure. I guess it's always easier to look back with rose tinted glasses, but the competitive scene now bears very little resemblance to the scene when SC2 was truly hot.
Like it or not though (honestly, I don't really find it enjoyable to watch) ProLeague now pretty much props up the Korean SC2 scene and without it things will likely collapse rapidly. But then, with things as they are, can SC2 really be saved regardless? Irreparable damage has already been done...
I don't think it's irreparable. Sc2 is still pretty big and well established. If anything, as long as we keep the passion there will be a day when RTS or similar genres become popular again like it was in Smash bros I believe. We just have to love the game for our own reasons and hope for best
SC2 can't be fixed by the design team that broke it. Can we get some game designers who understand game design?
RTS does not generate enough revenue for ATVI to justify taking one of their top guys off of franchises that produce billions for a franchise that has yet to hit even $1 billion after 18 years.
On September 04 2016 17:38 xuanzue wrote: my prediction is that the BW HD will be F2P (or really cheap). And the UI improvements from SC2 will stay, so more than 12 units will be selected.
CSGO started really slow and now has amazing numbers, maybe blizzard wants something similar.
My prediction is that it will be relatively expensive (Blizzard always tries to charge a premium because they can, just look at the latest WoW expansion) and that it won't have basically any changes besides support for high resolution modes and a newer battle.net implementation.
On September 04 2016 17:13 mantequilla wrote: maybe when big tournaments end, sc2 can get a big overhaul without the fear of breaking balance
Its happening now . The "avilo" patch is in the works. A patch designed for low apm players which when combined with F2 will allow foreigners to finally compete at the highest level
There there champ. Don't go off topic in the BW vs SC2 thread (AKA PL discussion) by mech QQ.
On September 04 2016 17:27 Diabolique wrote: Well, if Proleague ends, we will finally see all the good Koreans in IEM, DH and all international tournaments. Imagine seeing there EG.sOs, Millenium.Maru, Expert.ByuN or Liquid.herO!!!
Why? Because: 1. I can't imagine Blizzard will stop sponsoring foreign WCS events in 2017. This would mean, they attracted several students to interrupt their studies and go progamer full time and one year later they would be in a scene with no money, no tournaments ... they will continue to push SC2 into the tournaments for one year more for sure.
2. Without a ProLeague and meaningful money in Korean competitions, what reason would the TOP Koreans have to stay in Korea, if there are still reasonable money to be earned abroad? Some will retire, go to military ... but why leave it completely when there are still good money to be earned (point 1)? And I can't imagine the European / US teamhouses would refuse each one TOP Korean into their team ... Also the visa issues should not be that bad if True managed to do that ...
3. Anyway, I would much more prefer Proleague 2017 still existing ...
Sounds reasonable. I don't know though, how many of the Korean players have it in them to move abroad and change their everyday life significantly for potential income for only one more year. Of course some have it them, but not all for sure.
Play a game that has its financial backing negotiated annually and move abroad or stay in Korea and switch into a more stabilized game? I hope that Blizzard practices transparent enough communication about their long term plans. That way pros have more basis for a best decision.
I've enjoyed proleague a lot during the past few seasons and I rly hope it has a next year. In the meantime I'm also starting to dream about a future RTS-game, which would also have a proscene. A one that would avoid some of the potholes, which SC2 hit.
On September 04 2016 17:38 xuanzue wrote: my prediction is that the BW HD will be F2P (or really cheap). And the UI improvements from SC2 will stay, so more than 12 units will be selected.
CSGO started really slow and now has amazing numbers, maybe blizzard wants something similar.
unlimited unit selection was possible even back then, it was an intentional design choice to limit it to 12 which means they most likely won't be changing it.
QFT.
I'm not gonna respond to the people who quoted me and tried to teach me about BW and Quake as if I hadn't been a part of those scenes literally since the 90s, but I have full confidence that if BW HD is done right it will do well enough to surprise the naysayers.
On September 04 2016 17:27 Diabolique wrote: Well, if Proleague ends, we will finally see all the good Koreans in IEM, DH and all international tournaments. Imagine seeing there EG.sOs, Millenium.Maru, Expert.ByuN or Liquid.herO!!!
Why? Because: 1. I can't imagine Blizzard will stop sponsoring foreign WCS events in 2017. This would mean, they attracted several students to interrupt their studies and go progamer full time and one year later they would be in a scene with no money, no tournaments ... they will continue to push SC2 into the tournaments for one year more for sure.
2. Without a ProLeague and meaningful money in Korean competitions, what reason would the TOP Koreans have to stay in Korea, if there are still reasonable money to be earned abroad? Some will retire, go to military ... but why leave it completely when there are still good money to be earned (point 1)? And I can't imagine the European / US teamhouses would refuse each one TOP Korean into their team ... Also the visa issues should not be that bad if True managed to do that ...
3. Anyway, I would much more prefer Proleague 2017 still existing ...
Sounds reasonable. I don't know though, how many of the Korean players have it in them to move abroad and change their everyday life significantly for potential income for only one more year. Of course some have it them, but not all for sure.
Play a game that has its financial backing negotiated annually and move abroad or stay in Korea and switch into a more stabilized game? I hope that Blizzard practices transparent enough communication about their long term plans. That way pros have more basis for a best decision.
I've enjoyed proleague a lot during the past few seasons and I rly hope it has a next year. In the meantime I'm also starting to dream about a future RTS-game, which would also have a proscene. A one that would avoid some of the potholes, which SC2 hit.
Anyways, let's stay optimistic
Good luck dreaming such a game bc it has to be really popular to make it work
On September 04 2016 20:21 LaLuSh wrote: I think Blizzard will sponsor both SC2 & BW next year.
Why the hell would they do that? They don't sell bw anymore why would they throw money at it for nothing? Well unless there is infact a BW hd remake in the making.
On September 04 2016 17:27 Diabolique wrote: Well, if Proleague ends, we will finally see all the good Koreans in IEM, DH and all international tournaments. Imagine seeing there EG.sOs, Millenium.Maru, Expert.ByuN or Liquid.herO!!!
Why? Because: 1. I can't imagine Blizzard will stop sponsoring foreign WCS events in 2017. This would mean, they attracted several students to interrupt their studies and go progamer full time and one year later they would be in a scene with no money, no tournaments ... they will continue to push SC2 into the tournaments for one year more for sure.
2. Without a ProLeague and meaningful money in Korean competitions, what reason would the TOP Koreans have to stay in Korea, if there are still reasonable money to be earned abroad? Some will retire, go to military ... but why leave it completely when there are still good money to be earned (point 1)? And I can't imagine the European / US teamhouses would refuse each one TOP Korean into their team ... Also the visa issues should not be that bad if True managed to do that ...
3. Anyway, I would much more prefer Proleague 2017 still existing ...
Sounds reasonable. I don't know though, how many of the Korean players have it in them to move abroad and change their everyday life significantly for potential income for only one more year. Of course some have it them, but not all for sure.
Play a game that has its financial backing negotiated annually and move abroad or stay in Korea and switch into a more stabilized game? I hope that Blizzard practices transparent enough communication about their long term plans. That way pros have more basis for a best decision.
I've enjoyed proleague a lot during the past few seasons and I rly hope it has a next year. In the meantime I'm also starting to dream about a future RTS-game, which would also have a proscene. A one that would avoid some of the potholes, which SC2 hit.
Anyways, let's stay optimistic
Good luck dreaming such a game bc it has to be really popular to make it work
On September 04 2016 17:23 WinterViewbot420 wrote: Fuck it my collarbone is broken and I can't afford surgery or pain pills, I'll write this shit.
I'm glad you guys are seeing the end of your game because as a member of the BW community I can't go anywhere without being called a BW elitist, or a BW sucker, or some other offensive term that says I'm supporting a dead game. David Kim is nice but he's the worst balance designer I've ever seen and the game's fucked up at such a low level there's no fixing it without an absolute overhaul, which after six years and two expansions will never happen. I can't say a thing bad about SC2 on the StarCraft subreddit or the SC2 part of TL without having people shit on me. I stopped trying to talk about it here and Reddit just loves to hate on BW as if it's a SC2-only subreddit. SC2 is dying because David Kim is an idiot and instead of taking it into your own hands and breaking the EULA just like Fish, iCCup, Brain, Netcraft, Amazon, or any other Brood War server you guys kept taking it up the ass, while complaining about having to take it up the ass then doing nothing about it. You waited for Blizzard to do something.
I know not everybody is like this and I truly do wish the best of luck for StarCraft II as a game, but as a community you guys are some of the most entitled, elitist, and laziest people I've ever had the distaste of seeing and being a part of. You guys don't even let people talk about other games as if it's a sin to play anything but SC2, even if it's fucking Mario or some shit.
User was banned for this post.
I feel like this should have ended with a cartman "screw you guys, Im going home"
You just have to look at the stats on the right banner. BW stream viewers always outstrip sc2 players as of late. I still play sc2 for fun, not so much BW, but I'll be honest BW is a hell lot more fun to watch.
LotV was the last chance for Blizz to secure SC2's legacy. It should have been a free download with a DLC for the single player Hollywood style campaign and other shit idgaf about. It should have fixed the deathball problem and mobility arms race. It should have made the game about space control and battles of attrition, not tasteless saying 'here we go!' for the 1000th time and game over in 15 secs. Now the changes incoming are good, but not good enough. It needed an overhaul and I understand why Blizzard didn't want to do it. It's easier to push BW HD.
There's like, no live audience for regular proleague games anymore. Overwatch, on the other hand...
We gotta keep it realistic, RTS will always have its hardcore fanboys, but it's never going to be big again. A small sustainable scene is better and BW is the way to go.
On September 05 2016 00:32 shadymmj wrote: You just have to look at the stats on the right banner. BW stream viewers always outstrip sc2 players as of late. I still play sc2 for fun, not so much BW, but I'll be honest BW is a hell lot more fun to watch.
LotV was the last chance for Blizz to secure SC2's legacy. It should have been a free download with a DLC for the single player Hollywood style campaign and other shit idgaf about. It should have fixed the deathball problem and mobility arms race. It should have made the game about space control and battles of attrition, not tasteless saying 'here we go!' for the 1000th time and game over in 15 secs. Now the changes incoming are good, but not good enough. It needed an overhaul and I understand why Blizzard didn't want to do it. It's easier to push BW HD.
There's like, no live audience for regular proleague games anymore. Overwatch, on the other hand...
We gotta keep it realistic, RTS will always have its hardcore fanboys, but it's never going to be big again. A small sustainable scene is better and BW is the way to go.
Yeah, you're right and I'm very sad about this. You know why? Because this means only one thing: actual and forthcoming target players have a very short attention span. Casual, fast, quick gg, goal over path, result over learning. Education and ethics/morale around the occidental world are targeted towards this one very simple thing: results. No insight, no developing abstract vision, no nothing.
I hope you and I are wrong, I really do, cos I love the RTS genre to no end.
Well, when we forget all this BW bullshit, even if the worst case was true and Proleague was over, I am pretty sure, Blizzard would not kill SC2 and would not exclude it from BlizzCon in the coming few years (and I can't imagine any scenario, in which they would introduce BW to BlizzCon). So, SC2 would not be dead anyway and we could look forward at least for BlizzCon every year. And I still hope, they will never ban Koreans from BlizzCon and there will be always a few good old Koreans with the proper skill to "show good games to their fans"!!!
I'm not going to hope for the death of Sc2 as there's plenty of people that love the game, but I do hope the future of brood war, the game I love, gets even brighter. If this is at the expense of Sc2 (in Korea) then so be it.
On September 05 2016 02:33 Diabolique wrote: Well, when we forget all this BW bullshit, even if the worst case was true and Proleague was over, I am pretty sure, Blizzard would not kill SC2 and would not exclude it from BlizzCon in the coming few years (and I can't imagine any scenario, in which they would introduce BW to BlizzCon). So, SC2 would not be dead anyway and we could look forward at least for BlizzCon every year. And I still hope, they will never ban Koreans from BlizzCon and there will be always a few good old Koreans with the proper skill to "show good games to their fans"!!!
What I see is the following:
- KeSPA returns to BW with its teams (PL and individual leagues by Afreeca and OGN sponsored by Blizzard). - SC2 WCS becomes international and no region lock at all.
On September 05 2016 02:33 Diabolique wrote: Well, when we forget all this BW bullshit, even if the worst case was true and Proleague was over, I am pretty sure, Blizzard would not kill SC2 and would not exclude it from BlizzCon in the coming few years (and I can't imagine any scenario, in which they would introduce BW to BlizzCon). So, SC2 would not be dead anyway and we could look forward at least for BlizzCon every year. And I still hope, they will never ban Koreans from BlizzCon and there will be always a few good old Koreans with the proper skill to "show good games to their fans"!!!
What I see is the following:
- KeSPA returns to BW with its teams (PL and individual leagues by Afreeca and OGN sponsored by Blizzard). - SC2 WCS becomes international and no region lock at all.
And the Korean SC2 pros who don't want to switch to BW continue to dominate.
On September 05 2016 02:33 Diabolique wrote: Well, when we forget all this BW bullshit, even if the worst case was true and Proleague was over, I am pretty sure, Blizzard would not kill SC2 and would not exclude it from BlizzCon in the coming few years (and I can't imagine any scenario, in which they would introduce BW to BlizzCon). So, SC2 would not be dead anyway and we could look forward at least for BlizzCon every year. And I still hope, they will never ban Koreans from BlizzCon and there will be always a few good old Koreans with the proper skill to "show good games to their fans"!!!
What I see is the following:
- KeSPA returns to BW with its teams (PL and individual leagues by Afreeca and OGN sponsored by Blizzard). - SC2 WCS becomes international and no region lock at all.
That would not be that bad. Let us hope, at least Afreeca will keep it.
People believing in BW PL, its a pipe dream at best, without Blizzard PL won't be a thing at all and I can't see Blizzard putting money on BW because BW doesn't nets money like SC2 does.
Not to mention that even if BW is a thing korea, its scene is way smaller than SC2 because of SC2s global scene.
On September 05 2016 02:48 B-royal wrote: I'm not going to hope for the death of Sc2 as there's plenty of people that love the game, but I do hope the future of brood war, the game I love, gets even brighter. If this is at the expense of Sc2 (in Korea) then so be it.
And as a sc2 fan, I also wish the best for BW, but if sc2 will get more popular as BW declines, then so be it.
On September 05 2016 03:37 Lexender wrote: People believing in BW PL, its a pipe dream at best, without Blizzard PL won't be a thing at all and I can't see Blizzard putting money on BW because BW doesn't nets money like SC2 does.
Unless... they release an HD version.
On September 05 2016 03:37 Lexender wrote: Not to mention that even if BW is a thing korea, its scene is way smaller than SC2 because of SC2s global scene.
On September 05 2016 03:37 Lexender wrote: People believing in BW PL, its a pipe dream at best, without Blizzard PL won't be a thing at all and I can't see Blizzard putting money on BW because BW doesn't nets money like SC2 does.
On September 05 2016 03:37 Lexender wrote: Not to mention that even if BW is a thing korea, its scene is way smaller than SC2 because of SC2s global scene.
lol
You guys act as if everyone out there is just waiting for BW:HD to happen and that next to texture/graphics updates and compatibility for modern OS, Blizzard will also add ladders/matchmaking, anti-cheat and all that stuff.
The reality is that BW:HD will be a nice overhaul to play the game on modern computers. BW:HD is because Blizzard treats their products well, not because they want to push its eSports scene.
Just think about it: Why would Blizzard invest significant amount of engineering into BW when they already have all that in SC2? I think it's pretty clear that without Blizzard, any StarCraft would be lost. And Blizzard has more financial incentives to push SC2 compared to BW.
Yes, BW was and probably is more popular than SC2 in Korea. But Blizzard is thinking globally.
Projects like the shield battery are far, far more promising ways to make BW eSports more active again.
When will you realize that BW HD is not targeted for global scene? Mark my word. The target is KOREA! Also, it could be very true that BW HD is basically the coming patch for BW (1.17.0).
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
As a company, what they try to make ...
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
How is the chance higher in Korea to throw money in SC2, a game that has barely any fans and viewers there? what you say makes not sense at all, It wasnt and wont be never close in numbers to the fans and viewers that BW can bring , and one more thing: BW HD.
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
How is the chance higher in Korea to throw money in SC2, a game that has barely any fans and viewers there? what you say makes not sense at all, It wasnt and wont be never close in numbers to the fans and viewers that BW can bring , and one more thing: BW HD.
For BW, Blizzard isn't getting any money out of that in Korea. Koreans don't pay money in BW and global fans definitely exist, but on custom servers and also in lower numbers. So the benefit of investing into korean BW is really just "catering to already existing fans" which I can definitely see Blizzard doing, but not to such an extent as to basically kill their game that actually makes them money.
For SC2, Blizzard is seeing money from people being hooked both in Korea and globally. And when they do something in Korea, they also have a "global market" that consumes that, not only koreans. They're even setting up microtransactions so that they will benefit even more from those in the long run...
On September 05 2016 04:35 xuanzue wrote: not like putting to work BW HD demands much money, I mean there are maps in the arcade years ago with that.
The amount of work people expect Blizzard to put into the game definitely demands a lot of money. Starts with finding someone that can work with BW's legacy code, goes over to updating it to modern standards and ends with sealing it against hackers.
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
How is the chance higher in Korea to throw money in SC2, a game that has barely any fans and viewers there? what you say makes not sense at all, It wasnt and wont be never close in numbers to the fans and viewers that BW can bring , and one more thing: BW HD.
For BW, Blizzard isn't getting any money out of that in Korea. Koreans don't pay money in BW and global fans definitely exist, but on custom servers and also in lower numbers.
For SC2, Blizzard is seeing money from people being hooked. And when they do something in Korea, they also have a "global market" that consumes that, not only koreans.
On September 05 2016 04:35 xuanzue wrote: not like putting to work BW HD demands much money, I mean there are maps in the arcade years ago with that.
The amount of work people expect Blizzard to put into the game definitely demands a lot of money. Starts with finding someone that can work with BW's legacy code, goes over to updating it to modern standards and ends with sealing it against hackers.
Don't pay money for BW contents?
Bullshit!
Have you seen how much those Koreans pay the streamers?
Sharp got 10K USD just for advancing to the final.
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
How is the chance higher in Korea to throw money in SC2, a game that has barely any fans and viewers there? what you say makes not sense at all, It wasnt and wont be never close in numbers to the fans and viewers that BW can bring , and one more thing: BW HD.
For BW, Blizzard isn't getting any money out of that in Korea. Koreans don't pay money in BW and global fans definitely exist, but on custom servers and also in lower numbers.
For SC2, Blizzard is seeing money from people being hooked. And when they do something in Korea, they also have a "global market" that consumes that, not only koreans.
On September 05 2016 04:35 xuanzue wrote: not like putting to work BW HD demands much money, I mean there are maps in the arcade years ago with that.
The amount of work people expect Blizzard to put into the game definitely demands a lot of money. Starts with finding someone that can work with BW's legacy code, goes over to updating it to modern standards and ends with sealing it against hackers.
Don't pay money for BW contents?
Bullshit!
Have you seen how much those Koreans pay the streamers?
Sharp got 10K USD just for advancing to the final.
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
How is the chance higher in Korea to throw money in SC2, a game that has barely any fans and viewers there? what you say makes not sense at all, It wasnt and wont be never close in numbers to the fans and viewers that BW can bring , and one more thing: BW HD.
For BW, Blizzard isn't getting any money out of that in Korea. Koreans don't pay money in BW and global fans definitely exist, but on custom servers and also in lower numbers. So the benefit of investing into korean BW is really just "catering to already existing fans" which I can definitely see Blizzard doing, but not to such an extent as to basically kill their game that actually makes them money.
For SC2, Blizzard is seeing money from people being hooked both in Korea and globally. And when they do something in Korea, they also have a "global market" that consumes that, not only koreans. They're even setting up microtransactions so that they will benefit even more from those in the long run...
On September 05 2016 04:35 xuanzue wrote: not like putting to work BW HD demands much money, I mean there are maps in the arcade years ago with that.
The amount of work people expect Blizzard to put into the game definitely demands a lot of money. Starts with finding someone that can work with BW's legacy code, goes over to updating it to modern standards and ends with sealing it against hackers.
Microsoft to make the new xpac HD remake of Age of Empires even hired a group of community developers, so in fact it doesnt demand a lot of money, wrong again.
On September 04 2016 04:31 LongShot27 wrote: No one's fault but our own. And a few shady sponsorships...and matchfixers, but mostly us
Agreed. So much talk of loving sc2 and so few activity/supporting the scene/streamers etc, a game with enough people to sustain a community and a ladder is enough for people who want to play that game. All the rest was on top, and yes this is all a business to blizz and the $ faucet is about to run out.
Once blizzard leaves sc2 to its community the game will be allowed to flourish, as bw did.. as to how big those communities have to be to sustain themselves (i would argue that they can be very small and can last forever).
Rts such as sc (bw or 2) is not for everyone and indeed 10/20k viewership is not interesting for big moguls that like lol or other because they think it pays.. let them! And be part of a community that will take the game you like past its author's shortcomings.
On September 05 2016 04:15 KeksX wrote: Blizzard is not making money off of korea's BW scene. Why would they invest into that?
Why wouldn't they.
Blizzard is a company.
Or to be more clear: They can't afford to just throw money into a bottomless pit. Something has to come out of it. And the chance to get something out of SC2 is much higher.
How is the chance higher in Korea to throw money in SC2, a game that has barely any fans and viewers there? what you say makes not sense at all, It wasnt and wont be never close in numbers to the fans and viewers that BW can bring , and one more thing: BW HD.
For BW, Blizzard isn't getting any money out of that in Korea. Koreans don't pay money in BW and global fans definitely exist, but on custom servers and also in lower numbers. So the benefit of investing into korean BW is really just "catering to already existing fans" which I can definitely see Blizzard doing, but not to such an extent as to basically kill their game that actually makes them money.
For SC2, Blizzard is seeing money from people being hooked both in Korea and globally. And when they do something in Korea, they also have a "global market" that consumes that, not only koreans. They're even setting up microtransactions so that they will benefit even more from those in the long run...
On September 05 2016 04:35 xuanzue wrote: not like putting to work BW HD demands much money, I mean there are maps in the arcade years ago with that.
The amount of work people expect Blizzard to put into the game definitely demands a lot of money. Starts with finding someone that can work with BW's legacy code, goes over to updating it to modern standards and ends with sealing it against hackers.
Microsoft to make the new xpac HD remake of Age of Empires even hired a group of community developers, so in fact it doesnt demand a lot of money, wrong again.
It took two development studios to get AoE2:HD going. Just because they hired off of the community doesn't mean it doesn't cost any money to develop.
Anyway, lets assume Microsoft already went with a cheap route - do you think that will be enough to get going what people hope for BW:HD?
Also, AoE2:HD is a completely different situation with it being released on Steam and the devs working very closely with the community as you said. Something Blizzard isn't really known for.
Also, AoE2:HD is a completely different situation with it being released on Steam and the devs working very closely with the community as you said. Something Blizzard isn't really known for.
AoE devs working close to the community? in what alternative reality am I?
I had less lag playing with a 56k modem 16 years ago than the lag there is now in aoe HD. microsoft released it to grab some money from a lot of nostalgia guys.
Also by the things the Koreans had said BW HD will be more like a SC2 with BW units. The thing blizzard probably wants is numbers, just like valve and riot have many numbers to maintain their esports scene-
A new BW with old sprites for 640x480 will not bring many number
Also, AoE2:HD is a completely different situation with it being released on Steam and the devs working very closely with the community as you said. Something Blizzard isn't really known for.
AoE devs working close to the community? in what alternative reality am I?
I had less lag playing with a 56k modem 16 years ago than the lag there is now in aoe HD. microsoft released it to grab some money from a lot of nostalgia guys.
Also by the things the Koreans had said BW HD will be more like a SC2 with BW units. The thing blizzard probably wants is numbers, just like valve and riot have many numbers to maintain their esports scene-
A new BW with old sprites for 640x480 will not bring many number
Where are the rumors that BW HD is more like SC2 with BW units?
According to an official, “Blizzard once inquired me about upgrading Starcraft early this year. The most noticeable changes were graphics, but the core point was the structure of Battle.net.”
TL is not reddit, it is not 4Chan, it is not just some random internet forum. Pleas stop using YouTube videos in a humorous intent to get your point across.
On September 05 2016 06:25 Seeker wrote: TL is not reddit, it is not 4Chan, it is not just some random internet forum. Pleas stop using YouTube videos in a humorous intent to get your point across.
Yeah because no one on TL ever posts a funny pic/youtube video to lighten up a discussion. I didn't use it to get my point across, I used it to complete my sentence.
On September 05 2016 06:25 Seeker wrote: TL is not reddit, it is not 4Chan, it is not just some random internet forum. Pleas stop using YouTube videos in a humorous intent to get your point across.
Yeah because no one on TL ever posts a funny pic/youtube video to lighten up a discussion. I didn't use it to get my point across, I used it to complete my sentence.
But alright, I'll stop.
If we've missed something, then feel free to report it. We'll take care of it.
It's stupid, but I report youtube posts just because people report my posts when I have a youtube link. It's a shame teamliquid has this policy because it's sometimes used in a nice way.
On topic:
I think these PL messages are so vague that not much could be concluded. Some people have turned this into BW vs SC2 and even fantasied it's going to lead to BW PL. While it could happen, there isn't enough information that it will.
Let's say there is no sc2 proleague anymore, is there even any motivation for KT, SKT, etc to sponsor teams? Sure there still might be GSL/SSL but is that really enough? :/
On September 05 2016 12:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: Let's say there is no sc2 proleague anymore, is there even any motivation for KT, SKT, etc to sponsor teams? Sure there still might be GSL/SSL but is that really enough? :/
On September 05 2016 06:43 Shield wrote: It's stupid, but I report youtube posts just because people report my posts when I have a youtube link. It's a shame teamliquid has this policy because it's sometimes used in a nice way.
On topic:
I think these PL messages are so vague that not much could be concluded. Some people have turned this into BW vs SC2 and even fantasied it's going to lead to BW PL. While it could happen, there isn't enough information that it will.
Love thy neighbor as thyself. Never submit petition that comes from no harm. Our overlords and their policies are silly.
On topic:
Yeah, why the heck don't we have a BW vs SC2 megathread to hold all the gold? TF TL?
Why are so many people asking for a BW vs SC2 megathread? It's not like you wanna have an honest discussion, all you wanna do is bash the other game and be assholes to their fans without getting banned...
On September 05 2016 13:14 Silvana wrote: Why are so many people asking for a BW vs SC2 megathread? It's not like you wanna have an honest discussion, all you wanna do is bash the other game and be assholes to their fans without getting banned...
With the mega thread:
- Eliminate any discussion outside the forum by redirecting them there (The ultimate toilet) - have giggles from reading the posts there.
Hoping the rumored return of Brood War proleague is true. I dunno who was saying no one watches the ASL earlier in the thread but they get a hell of a lot more people than SC2 tourneys there from what I've seen. stay bitter m8
Blizz would have interest in helping the scene as well with BW HD announced.
On September 04 2016 17:23 WinterViewbot420 wrote: Fuck it my collarbone is broken and I can't afford surgery or pain pills, I'll write this shit.
I'm glad you guys are seeing the end of your game because as a member of the BW community I can't go anywhere without being called a BW elitist, or a BW sucker, or some other offensive term that says I'm supporting a dead game. David Kim is nice but he's the worst balance designer I've ever seen and the game's fucked up at such a low level there's no fixing it without an absolute overhaul, which after six years and two expansions will never happen. I can't say a thing bad about SC2 on the StarCraft subreddit or the SC2 part of TL without having people shit on me. I stopped trying to talk about it here and Reddit just loves to hate on BW as if it's a SC2-only subreddit. SC2 is dying because David Kim is an idiot and instead of taking it into your own hands and breaking the EULA just like Fish, iCCup, Brain, Netcraft, Amazon, or any other Brood War server you guys kept taking it up the ass, while complaining about having to take it up the ass then doing nothing about it. You waited for Blizzard to do something.
I know not everybody is like this and I truly do wish the best of luck for StarCraft II as a game, but as a community you guys are some of the most entitled, elitist, and laziest people I've ever had the distaste of seeing and being a part of. You guys don't even let people talk about other games as if it's a sin to play anything but SC2, even if it's fucking Mario or some shit.
User was banned for this post.
I mean this is what most broodwar players think but wouldn't say out loud because of fear of getting banned on the only english speaking BW forum there is.
However we now have to post these things in a passive-aggressive manner.
I wish teamliquid would just keep teamliquid.net BW only, and create teamliquidsc2.net instead. Just look at how biased the community news section is. Basically after 2010, 99% of posts are SC2 related even if they are barely newsworthy, while most news about BW are not even mentioned.
Starcraft is not just starcraft, but TL.net tries so hard to accommodate both. It's like having a website about football and american football because they share the same name.
I think it's unfair for TL.net to almost completely ignore BW, considering that BW is what made TL.net big.
On September 05 2016 12:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: Let's say there is no sc2 proleague anymore, is there even any motivation for KT, SKT, etc to sponsor teams? Sure there still might be GSL/SSL but is that really enough? :/
On September 05 2016 13:14 Silvana wrote: Why are so many people asking for a BW vs SC2 megathread? It's not like you wanna have an honest discussion, all you wanna do is bash the other game and be assholes to their fans without getting banned...
With the mega thread:
- Eliminate any discussion outside the forum by redirecting them there (The ultimate toilet) - have giggles from reading the posts there.
On September 05 2016 13:14 Silvana wrote: Why are so many people asking for a BW vs SC2 megathread? It's not like you wanna have an honest discussion, all you wanna do is bash the other game and be assholes to their fans without getting banned...
With the mega thread:
- Eliminate any discussion outside the forum by redirecting them there (The ultimate toilet) - have giggles from reading the posts there.
If people want something.. it exists.. you have your mega thread right here.. just like others got the "am i crazy for voting trump" blog going.. asking for more is really weird?! dyafollow?
On September 05 2016 16:26 fluidrone wrote: If people want something.. it exists.. you have your mega thread right here.. just like others got the "am i crazy for voting trump" blog going.. asking for more is really weird?! dyafollow?
On topic: so much off topic :/
To be fair, the source material is extremely vague and doesn't have any actual value. So naturally the disussion around it will be all over the place.
All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
This is very spot on. Although in theory to the hardcore BW lovers this sounds like a way to reinvigorate the General RTS scene without some drastic quality of play changes to BW you'd have trouble pulling in new or casual players, even more so than SC2. BW HD would need to include features like unlimited unit selection, mbs, worker rally, etc to have a shot at appealing to a newer gaming generation and then it will frustrate the die hards.
Not that BW HD couldn't be a cool thing to do but the business strategy makes little sense if it includes some sort of abandonment of any part of SC2. That's admitting failure not something Blizzard likes to do.
I feel either way Blizzard is pushing the eSport part of all of this way too much. If they focused more on investing in the quality of the game the scene would thrive, instead of trying to force an eSport scene while the game itself is lacking.
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: I feel either way Blizzard is pushing the eSport part of all of this way too much. If they focused more on investing in the quality of the game the scene would thrive, instead of trying to force an eSport scene while the game itself is lacking.
This. DK is the one who should be responsible for this.
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: I feel either way Blizzard is pushing the eSport part of all of this way too much. If they focused more on investing in the quality of the game the scene would thrive, instead of trying to force an eSport scene while the game itself is lacking.
This. DK is the one who should be responsible for this.
For what? DK is a balance designer, nothing more. If he doesn't get the order to redesign the game, he won't do it.
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
Well i saw MC streaming on afreeca and twitch simultaneously. In theory you would think he gets lots of viewers (dancing and singing + sc2) The truth is he was averaging about <100 viewers on afreeca, on twitch 500 - 1000. Why is byun, the famous terran player not streaming on afreeca?
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
they are not even on par. I'm korean and sc2 is completely irrelevant. Afreeca stream pretty much tells rest of the story. The fact that RAIN, one of biggest sc2's star, came to afreeca and got 100 viewers AFTER flash buffed him up with popularity basically summarize sc2's state. Rain chose to not even play sc2 but bw for viewers as well. Idk how you think sc2 is on par. PC bang statistics indicate that bw is 10 times more popular than sc2. (2.5% vs .23%). Afreeca streams also indicate that bw is way more popular because Afreeca is like the "twitch" of korea where all gamers stream.If Maru or Dark streams then they'll get 300 viewers max at best. NO ONE KNOWS WHO THEY ARE IN KOREA. THEY'RE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. When life was caught MATCH FIXING, koreans were like WHO IS HE?
@insitelol, well the last year BW starleague in OGN (sponsored by Sonic) was top three of the most watched programs on Cable in Korea, and there is a lot of data which in fact support that BW is not only bigger but for a great margin than SC2 in Korea (just use the search funtion on TL dont be lazy). I agree that BW PL revival wouldnt be realistic right now but in reality Blizz has not reason for throwing money in SC2 Korea, and they are doing it, I dont like to say that a game is dead because it is never dead to the people who likes to play it, but SC2 in Korea is a niche inside a niche, get your data clear and make your conclussions.
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
they are not even on par. I'm korean and sc2 is completely irrelevant. Afreeca stream pretty much tells rest of the story. The fact that RAIN, one of biggest sc2's star, came to afreeca and got 100 viewers AFTER flash buffed him up with popularity basically summarize sc2's state. Rain chose to not even play sc2 but bw for viewers as well. Idk how you think sc2 is on par. PC bang statistics indicate that bw is 10 times more popular than sc2. (2.5% vs .23%). Afreeca streams also indicate that bw is way more popular because Afreeca is like the "twitch" of korea where all gamers stream.If Maru or Dark streams then they'll get 300 viewers max at best. NO ONE KNOWS WHO THEY ARE IN KOREA. THEY'RE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. When life was caught MATCH FIXING, koreans were like WHO IS HE?
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
they are not even on par. I'm korean and sc2 is completely irrelevant. Afreeca stream pretty much tells rest of the story. The fact that RAIN, one of biggest sc2's star, came to afreeca and got 100 viewers AFTER flash buffed him up with popularity basically summarize sc2's state. Rain chose to not even play sc2 but bw for viewers as well. Idk how you think sc2 is on par. PC bang statistics indicate that bw is 10 times more popular than sc2. (2.5% vs .23%). Afreeca streams also indicate that bw is way more popular because Afreeca is like the "twitch" of korea where all gamers stream.If Maru or Dark streams then they'll get 300 viewers max at best. NO ONE KNOWS WHO THEY ARE IN KOREA. THEY'RE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. When life was caught MATCH FIXING, koreans were like WHO IS HE?
On September 05 2016 22:04 insitelol wrote: All this BW hype is just becoming hilarious. Next time you guys should making an assumption based on how stars alligned during bisu stream. And for certain this assumption should be encrypted. Sc2 players mass switching to bw, BW HD incoming and rumors about BW PL, everything can happen while you dream. In reality there is NO reason for any party (kespa/blizzard) to switch Sc2 for BW for PL format or their main title. "BW is bigger than SC2 in korea" is ridiculous and plain wrong statement with no real evidence in the first place. At best they are on par. And don't even start with stream viewership numbers stuff with no kespa players allowed to stream. Save you breath for the day you see Maru/Dark/SoS/hero stream along with bisu and flash. About the technical side of the things: how on earth do you imagine a BW PL w/o a single pro kespa team and even a single kepsa pro player? This "switch" would require an enormous investment and i doubt it's even remotly possible in the nearest future. And for what? Change one B-title for another B-title discipline. Ditching SC2 for BW looks like an awfull and counterintuitive decision for both blizzard and kespa. It's just "not worth it" in a common sense.
they are not even on par. I'm korean and sc2 is completely irrelevant. Afreeca stream pretty much tells rest of the story. The fact that RAIN, one of biggest sc2's star, came to afreeca and got 100 viewers AFTER flash buffed him up with popularity basically summarize sc2's state. Rain chose to not even play sc2 but bw for viewers as well. Idk how you think sc2 is on par. PC bang statistics indicate that bw is 10 times more popular than sc2. (2.5% vs .23%). Afreeca streams also indicate that bw is way more popular because Afreeca is like the "twitch" of korea where all gamers stream.If Maru or Dark streams then they'll get 300 viewers max at best. NO ONE KNOWS WHO THEY ARE IN KOREA. THEY'RE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. When life was caught MATCH FIXING, koreans were like WHO IS HE?
I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
that doesn't say anything about fish server players. Its 2am in korea monday. It's more like 15-20k
I didn`t say anything about it; BW has concrete 3% share and that`s it.
My stance is always same: I do not think the current state of SC2 is good. (nor like LotV. check my threads)
However, bashing SC2 through fantasising BW in 2016 is ridiculous.
I`m the one who have seen great BW games since Thrunet supported this scene; but this is just ridiculous.
Well said . There certainly are a few of these overly optimistic people around, I think the most likely result of SC2 proleague ending would be simply no proleague or KeSPA presence in either Starcraft title. I'd love to be proven wrong by BW returning to it's former glory and surpassing the likes of LoL of course, I'm just not holding my breath because nothing seems to support that idea.
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
that doesn't say anything about fish server players. Its 2am in korea monday. It's more like 15-20k
I didn`t say anything about it; BW has concrete 3% share and that`s it.
My stance is always same: I do not think the current state of SC2 is good. (nor like LotV. check my threads)
However, bashing SC2 through fantasising BW in 2016 is ridiculous.
I`m the one who have seen great BW games since Thrunet supported this scene; but this is just ridiculous.
This is only about pc bang stats though, no? I get that pc bangs are a big deal in korea, but i would imagine that a lot of players play at home as well, no? Especially 1vs1 games. I mean if we look at pc bangs fifa online is kinda big, is the interest in fifa online esports really bigger than for bw/sc2 for example? How relevant are pc bang stats in the grand scheme of things in 2016? These stats get posted over and over again, but is it really the most important stat you can bring up these days when talking about esports/general popularity. I wonder
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
that doesn't say anything about fish server players. Its 2am in korea monday. It's more like 15-20k
I didn`t say anything about it; BW has concrete 3% share and that`s it.
My stance is always same: I do not think the current state of SC2 is good. (nor like LotV. check my threads)
However, bashing SC2 through fantasising BW in 2016 is ridiculous.
I`m the one who have seen great BW games since Thrunet supported this scene; but this is just ridiculous.
This is only about pc bang stats though, no? I get that pc bangs are a big deal in korea, but i would imagine that a lot of players play at home as well, no? Especially 1vs1 games. I mean if we look at pc bangs fifa online is kinda big, is the interest in fifa online esports really bigger than for bw/sc2 for example? How relevant are pc bang stats in the grand scheme of things in 2016? These stats get posted over and over again, but is it really the most important stat you can bring up these days when talking about esports/general popularity. I wonder
pretty true. I mean boxer went to korean "white house" to meet the president back in 2002. There are millions of old bw fans with their wives and jobs. What would happen if blizzard really advertised and pushed forward bw HD remaster. Won't it spike a lot of interest? BW can get at least a small scene. How was it that completely irrelevant sc2 had a scene since 2014? lol
On September 06 2016 02:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't really care for this post tbh I am just curious if these pc bang stats are the be-all and end-all in the year 2016
reciprocal. the interest in fifa online esports is not bad, with decent main sponsor like Adidas.
(most audience are there because of in-game giveaways tho)
SC2 is exceptional, because it is an heir to BW's esports system and super pro-scene.
Anyway, SC2's pro scene is bigger than that of fifa online. Otherwise, it is relative to PC bang stats.
On you question, I do not know the reason but every media use PC bang stats as a measure of game's popularity. No one quotes counting that includes 'house-gamers'.
Well one reason to look at PC bang stats is that they're probably the best thing that's available. I don't think there's even anything comparable for the west because nobody has a complete view of the home gamers (Steam comes closest) unless I'm not aware of some company that does it which is entirely possible. I've seen some estimates of western league playerbase by some analysts but I have no idea what their method is. I guess it would be totally feasible to do it just like TV does though by selecting a sample that represents the overall playerbase well.
PC bang stats might be biased towards overrepresenting younger gamers I guess, only someone who knows the PC bang demographics can say for sure though. Gaming still has a fairly young following though and people seem to move on to newer titles really quickly which is sad for esports so it may not be too far off even if that's the case.
On September 06 2016 01:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I still would be interested in some fish server stats, if anybody who speaks korean could provide this it would be great (why did you ban winterviewbot -.- )
that doesn't say anything about fish server players. Its 2am in korea monday. It's more like 15-20k
I didn`t say anything about it; BW has concrete 3% share and that`s it.
My stance is always same: I do not think the current state of SC2 is good. (nor like LotV. check my threads)
However, bashing SC2 through fantasising BW in 2016 is ridiculous.
I`m the one who have seen great BW games since Thrunet supported this scene; but this is just ridiculous.
This is only about pc bang stats though, no? I get that pc bangs are a big deal in korea, but i would imagine that a lot of players play at home as well, no? Especially 1vs1 games. I mean if we look at pc bangs fifa online is kinda big, is the interest in fifa online esports really bigger than for bw/sc2 for example? How relevant are pc bang stats in the grand scheme of things in 2016? These stats get posted over and over again, but is it really the most important stat you can bring up these days when talking about esports/general popularity. I wonder
pretty true. I mean boxer went to korean "white house" to meet the president back in 2002. There are millions of old bw fans with their wives and jobs. What would happen if blizzard really advertised and pushed forward bw HD remaster. Won't it spike a lot of interest? BW can get at least a small scene. How was it that completely irrelevant sc2 had a scene since 2014? lol
"Jobs" and "Marriage" are both things that work extremely against someone's willingness to play or pay towards a new videogame.
Developers have been trying to advertise towards these people for ages. Candy Crush & co have the best results.
Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other? Why it can work in smaller game like Quake ... ? Like there was Quake Live and QuakeWorld (Something like BW:HD) and it was sponsored by Intel..?
There is noone from Blizzard to blame... the amout of negativity overwhelm TL, Reedit, Blizzard forums, it's not even worth it for new players to come when they come and see all the negativity
Btw look.. they even reskin one of the maps to fit the intel, while players can actually turn it off ingame.. How hard is do that in SC2? This might attract some sponsors in.
And DON'T even talk about the viewership, u can hardly see quake anywhere on twitch or youtube
The point is that there is still strong passioned scene around the quake, meanwhile in SC2 there is none (and quake is older than SC2, hell even QW is older than BW)
On September 06 2016 11:16 Arceus wrote: The sad thing is that potential sponsors would probably shake their head at Sc2 after watching that kind of grandfinal.
LotV isn't even 1 year old yet and the outlook already looks grim. I blame developers who didnt take their chance to revive Sc2
It's a good thing that the quality of the final doesn't determine sponsorships then, or ESPORTS in general would have a lot of problems.
On September 06 2016 11:16 Arceus wrote: The sad thing is that potential sponsors would probably shake their head at Sc2 after watching that kind of grandfinal.
LotV isn't even 1 year old yet and the outlook already looks grim. I blame developers who didnt take their chance to revive Sc2
It's a good thing that the quality of the final doesn't determine sponsorships then, or ESPORTS in general would have a lot of problems.
I think he meant the quality of the finals as the viewers numbers not quality of games. Finals are where the viewers spike.
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: The point is that there is still strong passioned scene around the quake, meanwhile in SC2 there is none (and quake is older than SC2, hell even QW is older than BW)
Not sure I understand... How exactly are you measuring the scene to arrive at quake scene being strong and SC2 not? There are people passionate about Quake but there aren't many of them around which is why there is no real pro scene left for QL, there's just Quakecon and even that's dependent on what Zenimax *shudder* thinks is best nowadays...
Does anyone know what the live audience numbers were for this proleague final? Look quite big. And how does this compare historically (both in sc2 and broodwar)?
Thanks a lot for the info, guys, especially coming from the natives. Will take that into considiration. Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions...
On September 07 2016 04:40 rednusa wrote: Does anyone know what the live audience numbers were for this proleague final? Look quite big. And how does this compare historically (both in sc2 and broodwar)?
This year seems to have the smallest crowd for PL ever. Last year looked bigger. I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
On September 07 2016 04:40 rednusa wrote: Does anyone know what the live audience numbers were for this proleague final? Look quite big. And how does this compare historically (both in sc2 and broodwar)?
Don't really know the exact numbers but i watched all of SC2 PL finals and the last one definitely wasn't the best. But any of them pale in comparison of BW godlen era PL. Just search for the videos of 2007-2010 on youtube.
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all.
They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window.
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other?
This is what bugs me most.
I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway.
I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it.
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other?
This is what bugs me most.
I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway.
I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it.
This is mostly a revenge story.
Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ".
And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned.
Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today.
On September 07 2016 18:20 insitelol wrote: Thanks a lot for the info, guys, especially coming from the natives. Will take that into considiration. Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions...
That's how esports works in general though, with the assumption that supporting the scene will produce more sales. Of course for non-f2p titles that connection may be more suspect. It's true that putting their money in a region that isn't really bringing in the cash (Korea) is fairly unique about the SC2 situation but then again the Korean pro scene is and was followed by the western audience. The pro gamers aren't the ones that will make it profitable with just their own purchases in any region anyway.
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all.
They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window.
Why? To make us money, of course".
I think SC2 absolutely needed this long term commitment to making even large changes from them to developing it as WoL was very rough at the start. It did get much better but more was still needed and this continued with HotS. LotV isn't perfect either but I think many of the changes introduced with the expansions have been for the better.
What I won't disagree with is that the traditional cardboard box model of monetization doesn't fit esports very well. The development could have gone better if it had been more gradual instead of holding off big changes until an expansion drops. It's just that making the changes required some way to make money and I'm not sure which other model, if any, would've worked.
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other?
This is what bugs me most.
I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway.
I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it.
This is mostly a revenge story.
Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ".
And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned.
Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today.
Where is this "forced" coming from? While there was a previous legal battle it did result in an agreement for continuing the BW broadcasts. is there any evidence that when the switch occurred they didn't choose themselves to gamble and try to go with SC2? Of course Blizzard probably promised monetary support but that's not something you'd call "forcing".
On September 07 2016 18:20 insitelol wrote: Thanks a lot for the info, guys, especially coming from the natives. Will take that into considiration. Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions...
That's how esports works in general though, with the assumption that supporting the scene will produce more sales. Of course for non-f2p titles that connection may be more suspect. It's true that putting their money in a region that isn't really bringing in the cash (Korea) is fairly unique about the SC2 situation but then again the Korean pro scene is and was followed by the western audience. The pro gamers aren't the ones that will make it profitable with just their own purchases in any region anyway.
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all.
They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window.
Why? To make us money, of course".
I think SC2 absolutely needed this long term commitment to making even large changes from them to developing it as WoL was very rough at the start. It did get much better but more was still needed and this continued with HotS. LotV isn't perfect either but I think many of the changes introduced with the expansions have been for the better.
What I won't disagree with is that the traditional cardboard box model of monetization doesn't fit esports very well. The development could have gone better if it had been more gradual instead of holding off big changes until an expansion drops. It's just that making the changes required some way to make money and I'm not sure which other model, if any, would've worked.
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other?
This is what bugs me most.
I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway.
I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it.
This is mostly a revenge story.
Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ".
And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned.
Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today.
Where is this "forced" coming from? While there was a previous legal battle it did result in an agreement for continuing the BW broadcasts. is there any evidence that when the switch occurred they didn't choose themselves to gamble and try to go with SC2? Of course Blizzard probably promised monetary support but that's not something you'd call "forcing".
At the semi-finals of the last BW OSL, they hold interviews with Blizzard executive where Blizzard executive said: "We know that BW made huge contribution to eSport but not it is the time to make the switch."
And ever since, no BW broadcast took place after BW PL ended (and before SBenu), effectively forcing BW to end.
On September 07 2016 18:20 insitelol wrote: Thanks a lot for the info, guys, especially coming from the natives. Will take that into considiration. Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions...
That's how esports works in general though, with the assumption that supporting the scene will produce more sales. Of course for non-f2p titles that connection may be more suspect. It's true that putting their money in a region that isn't really bringing in the cash (Korea) is fairly unique about the SC2 situation but then again the Korean pro scene is and was followed by the western audience. The pro gamers aren't the ones that will make it profitable with just their own purchases in any region anyway.
On September 07 2016 19:11 Jae Zedong wrote:
On September 07 2016 18:40 insitelol wrote:
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all.
They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window.
Why? To make us money, of course".
I think SC2 absolutely needed this long term commitment to making even large changes from them to developing it as WoL was very rough at the start. It did get much better but more was still needed and this continued with HotS. LotV isn't perfect either but I think many of the changes introduced with the expansions have been for the better.
What I won't disagree with is that the traditional cardboard box model of monetization doesn't fit esports very well. The development could have gone better if it had been more gradual instead of holding off big changes until an expansion drops. It's just that making the changes required some way to make money and I'm not sure which other model, if any, would've worked.
On September 07 2016 20:51 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 07 2016 19:11 AbouSV wrote:
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other?
This is what bugs me most.
I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway.
I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it.
This is mostly a revenge story.
Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ".
And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned.
Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today.
Where is this "forced" coming from? While there was a previous legal battle it did result in an agreement for continuing the BW broadcasts. is there any evidence that when the switch occurred they didn't choose themselves to gamble and try to go with SC2? Of course Blizzard probably promised monetary support but that's not something you'd call "forcing".
At the semi-finals of the last BW OSL, they hold interviews with Blizzard executive where Blizzard executive said: "We know that BW made huge contribution to eSport but not it is the time to make the switch."
And ever since, no BW broadcast took place after BW PL ended (and before SBenu), effectively forcing BW to end.
Yes, I watched that and the choice of words was very unfortunate. Neither of those facts really point to Blizzard really forcing the issue though.
On September 07 2016 18:20 insitelol wrote: Thanks a lot for the info, guys, especially coming from the natives. Will take that into considiration. Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions...
That's how esports works in general though, with the assumption that supporting the scene will produce more sales. Of course for non-f2p titles that connection may be more suspect. It's true that putting their money in a region that isn't really bringing in the cash (Korea) is fairly unique about the SC2 situation but then again the Korean pro scene is and was followed by the western audience. The pro gamers aren't the ones that will make it profitable with just their own purchases in any region anyway.
On September 07 2016 19:11 Jae Zedong wrote:
On September 07 2016 18:40 insitelol wrote:
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all.
They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window.
Why? To make us money, of course".
I think SC2 absolutely needed this long term commitment to making even large changes from them to developing it as WoL was very rough at the start. It did get much better but more was still needed and this continued with HotS. LotV isn't perfect either but I think many of the changes introduced with the expansions have been for the better.
What I won't disagree with is that the traditional cardboard box model of monetization doesn't fit esports very well. The development could have gone better if it had been more gradual instead of holding off big changes until an expansion drops. It's just that making the changes required some way to make money and I'm not sure which other model, if any, would've worked.
On September 07 2016 20:51 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 07 2016 19:11 AbouSV wrote:
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other?
This is what bugs me most.
I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway.
I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it.
This is mostly a revenge story.
Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ".
And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned.
Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today.
Where is this "forced" coming from? While there was a previous legal battle it did result in an agreement for continuing the BW broadcasts. is there any evidence that when the switch occurred they didn't choose themselves to gamble and try to go with SC2? Of course Blizzard probably promised monetary support but that's not something you'd call "forcing".
At the semi-finals of the last BW OSL, they hold interviews with Blizzard executive where Blizzard executive said: "We know that BW made huge contribution to eSport but not it is the time to make the switch."
And ever since, no BW broadcast took place after BW PL ended (and before SBenu), effectively forcing BW to end.
Yes, I watched that and the choice of words was very unfortunate. Neither of those facts really point to Blizzard really forcing the issue though.
We know that both parties settled and by Blizz's statement there, it is probably included in one of the settlement cause.
And I remember there being a post with OGN renewal with Blizzard and one of the contract line was "can now broadcast both SC2 and SC1."
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e).
I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all.
They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window.
Why? To make us money, of course".
I wouldn't say it's because they don't take it seriously. I would say there is too many cooks in the kitchen and when they try to listen to everyone plus their granny things get muddled. SC2 early success was a given considering Blizzard's following.
Some might say a game's self life has diminished with the excess of consoles and F2P model games being releashed today. Even in NES's heyday there were new games were being released all the time.
With the constant changes and kiboshing the Korean market. This was coming from a mile away. It could have happened a lot sooner and with that said all things must come to an end someday.
I haven't posted in a long time but as a korean myself, if BW came into life again it'd still be huge in Korea no question about it. It speaks volumes about just the kind of history this game had including so many good games, rivalries, stories etc. Thinking about it, most viewers (imo) didn't play BW even during its heyday but regardless many watched the games because they were just that good unlike SC2. Its probably the reason why they drew massive crowds that SC2 can only even dream of.
Just like a couple of posters have already said, SC2 is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT in Korea and has been for awhile. You go to famous gaming websites in Korea that have SC2 arcticles and barely any discussion nor comments unlike the BW days. Zero interest. No one plays this except for a very minor few. Just like the rest of the world, they have pointed out to the exact same problems regarding this game e.g. the hard counters, volatility etc etc the game just doesn't have longeivity because of the way its designed.
The reason why Korean watch proleague is because their favorite KeSPA player is plyaing, not because they love SC2. If proleague switch to BW again, so many fan will back.
Ultimately Blizzard focused to Hard on making an eSport game. SC2 wasn't going to get the viewers of LoL etc and probably not the same as BW at its height either. If they focused on making a great game the eSport would have grew organically. There just isn't enough money right now in making a game specifically as an eSport and hoping people watch. A game should be enjoyed and consumed by the masses that will then tune in to see the best of the best play the game they enjoy. Same reason why people tune into certain Twitch channels. If Blizzard spent the same amount of money they've thrown at the eSport Scene for SC2 as they did in development and the game itself, bnet features, etc there would be a larger player base and private companies supporting the eSport scene with money coming in.
They are trying to force something that isn't there just to try and compete with other games.
On September 07 2016 04:40 rednusa wrote: Does anyone know what the live audience numbers were for this proleague final? Look quite big. And how does this compare historically (both in sc2 and broodwar)?
This year seems to have the smallest crowd for PL ever. Last year looked bigger. I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV.
the matchfixing scandal is probably the main factor for that.
Here comes my opinion, as a watcher : I almost never play.
Always hurts me when I read all the angry BW vs SC2 comments. I never got into BW before simply because it was just too hard for my little brain to understand and was way too hard to follow without some good english commentaries (back in the day. Got hooked by SC2 during WoL, watched a lot of it, played a ton... got bored after a while tho (overdose).
Got back into it recently (when I realised I could actually watch the GSL vods for free directly from twitch, never occured to me before for some reasons.), LotV is really not the best to watch sadly (for my taste : I hate tankivac, I love PvP tho, don't know why), but I still have a blast.
Discovered the joy of BW with ASL casted in english, super fun to watch. At the peak of SC2, there was just way too much content for me to follow anyway. I know the scene is not in the best of shape and I hope it doesn't die anytime soon, but weirdly enough, it's actually the most fun I even had as a casual watcher : I get to watch two different RTS, both casted by fantastic casters in english, both played at the highest level there is, both easily available in vod format in HQ.
I hope Proleague doesn't die off. If it's only SC2 again next season, i'm gonna be happy. If it goes back to BW because the Korean scene is bigger and because of the rumored BW HD, i'm gonna be happy that proleague still exist. If they switch, it's probably because it's the only way for them to survive.
Is it so hard to just enjoy a scene the way it is? Just accept that it will probably never be as big, simply because of how hard RTS is to play/understand? For aspiring pro players, I understand how frustrating that could be. For viewers tho... i'm not sure how long it will last, but isn't it a great time to be a SC fan? I know i'm having a blast watching PL/GSL/ASL and since the numbers (for possibly the worst timezone of all for us, foreigners) are pretty good on twitch for these three tournaments, I can't be the only one.
On September 08 2016 12:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: So yeah without sc2 proleague i doubt there will be a reason for kespa teams to sponsor teams, which means no korean sc2 in the long run.
W/e happens it doesnt feel wrong for me for some reason. I'd even say i would like "everything" to settle down eventually. Something's clearly not right here. I mean, its obvious that SC2 situation in korea is far from being healthy (comparing to other esport, bw comparison aside). If SC2PL must come to an end, so be it. I would really like to see SC2 living it's own life w/o artificial blizzard support.
Each round, you could see in a short time frame so many world's best players with their different strategies, micros, macros, cheeses, all the story lines of each team match with surprises, upsets, one sided victories ... You could have become a fan of a team and then live through with its victories and losses ... Each Proleague round, each Proleague match, you could see a lot. For me, Proleague was much more entertaining than e.g. GSL, SSL or any WCS tournament. As you could see so much in one place. Mixed together.
In 2015, I was so hyped for the Proleague finals, I was trying to attract some friends to watch it ... wrote extensive summaries about SC2, about the competitive scene, about Proleague, the two finalists ... Nobody was interested ... They liked HearthStone ... I gave up ... This year, hyped again, I came 10 minutes late and saw ONLY 6500 viewers on Twitch. Ten minutes after the beginning of Proleague finals! How sad ... This must be the end ...
The mediocre results of SKT seemed to me to be some kind of "when they were told, there would be no next year for their team, they stopped training ... giving any effort ... When CJ had only 4 players and did not want to hire any new player, that was another sign ... Then they hired MC, which was a simple solution for them as they knew, he will not mind playing just for one more year ... last year ... True was the smart one when he gave up his GSL spot ... It was not for WCS, it was for the future ... Jin Air coach crying after the finals ... How sad ...
I am just interested in - what will they do? All the SC2 players, when their teams will disband ... No money ... fewer competitions ... It will be interesting to observe it, but very, very sad ...
WCS Clown Fiesta ravaged the Korean scene. Even less exposure and fewer chances of winning. This looks like Proleague setting itself up for a closure announcement, and WCS is to blame. If Western audience is forced to lose the best chance to connect with Koreans, interest in Korean leagues goes down (Faceless Korean?), this is a logical result.
On September 09 2016 01:55 SC2Toastie wrote: WCS Clown Fiesta ravaged the Korean scene. Even less exposure and fewer chances of winning. This looks like Proleague setting itself up for a closure announcement, and WCS is to blame. If Western audience is forced to lose the best chance to connect with Koreans, interest in Korean leagues goes down (Faceless Korean?), this is a logical result.
On September 03 2016 23:45 Akara12345 wrote: It's about time. Maybe Brood War will replace it?
itll be interesting if BW makes a comeback. i have no interest in watching it personally, but it would probably create hype that would draw a lot of people in. the problem as i see it is that the BW fanbase would be eating itself inside out - there's almost no chance of drawing in viewers who weren't either around for BW or simply curious enough because of SC2, and that's a limited base. SC2 is fighting a losing battle against other esports, but it at least had its own modern appeal. no one from the current generation is going to want to sit down and watch a game that looks like BW unless the HD remaster is mindblowing
cue a thousand insane BW acolytes telling me how it's the greatest game ever and even in 500 years people will appreciate its beauty, but i'm talking about reality
On September 03 2016 23:45 Akara12345 wrote: It's about time. Maybe Brood War will replace it?
itll be interesting if BW makes a comeback. i have no interest in watching it personally, but it would probably create hype that would draw a lot of people in. the problem as i see it is that the BW fanbase would be eating itself inside out - there's almost no chance of drawing in viewers who weren't either around for BW or simply curious enough because of SC2, and that's a limited base. SC2 is fighting a losing battle against other esports, but it at least had its own modern appeal. no one from the current generation is going to want to sit down and watch a game that looks like BW unless the HD remaster is mindblowing
cue a thousand insane BW acolytes telling me how it's the greatest game ever and even in 500 years people will appreciate its beauty, but i'm talking about reality
On September 08 2016 12:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: So yeah without sc2 proleague i doubt there will be a reason for kespa teams to sponsor teams, which means no korean sc2 in the long run.
W/e happens it doesnt feel wrong for me for some reason. I'd even say i would like "everything" to settle down eventually. Something's clearly not right here. I mean, its obvious that SC2 situation in korea is far from being healthy (comparing to other esport, bw comparison aside). If SC2PL must come to an end, so be it. I would really like to see SC2 living it's own life w/o artificial blizzard support.
Everyone uses "artificial support". E-sports in 2016 in the vast majority of cases is marketing, paid for by the developers/publishers. The sooner people start seeing this as wrong somehow, the better.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1NuGXvx.png)
is still the best ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MsxcOXX.png)
This is the only game i follow since moba tournaments suck.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fQmvr4e.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BxvX4eL.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/W2hQJ1G.jpg)
