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T: Liberator's mode feels a bit redundant, since Tanks are buffed. Though it`s not identical (e.g. you cannot harass with Tanks), it feels quite overlapping. should be redesigned or removed.
Z: Zerg should get air superiority against Terran in order to deal with Tanks. However, it is not easy to use Mutas against Tanks because of Liberators and Vikings. And we know buffing Muta is out of the question, because it`s harassment would be overpowered. Hence, I`d suggest that Swarm Host be redesigned to make scourges with appropriate cost, making it Zerg version of Carriers.
Ravagers are vulnerable for its cost; its health should be 150 or so.
P: Still, Adept needs nerf; its ability is nonsense, forcing opponents to choose bad moves.So I`d say it should be impossible to recall. Or, simply, make Adepts armoured.
Buffing Zealot's health (10 or so) would be great, making this unit more viable.
Tempest's ability sucks; it is gimmicky(I understand some people do not like this expression, but I had to say), not cool and overlaps with storm. It can paralyze a whole base over 30 seconds, which is nonsense.
Just remove its ability and AG attack. In return, buff its AA bonus damage to counter BC.
Blinking DT is not as bad as I thought. But speed upgrade seems better.
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I must say, I don't know if the execution will be good, but I definitely dig the team's mindset for SC2.
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This has been said a lot, but I'm still confused by the redundant units like swarm host / lurker still in the game. I'd like more niche units or something thats more crazy. They don't feel like two distinct tools which units should feel like in an RTS.
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diversity: the possible choises of different strategies. Thats the way we should primarily follow
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Yeah this is why I'm not too sad about few changes to Protoss, even though Zealot+Carrier is massive changes. Protoss is by far the best designed race in LotV, while Terran is severely lacking behind and every matchup with a Terran in it, is mildly frustrating. I really hope Terran becomes super awesome, if this patch makes me wanna play Terran, even though I'm a Protoss, it means they did a damn good job!
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On August 20 2016 18:04 ejozl wrote:
Yeah this is why I'm not too sad about few changes to Protoss, even though Zealot+Carrier is massive changes. Protoss is by far the best designed race in LotV, while Terran is severely lacking behind and every matchup with a Terran in it, is mildly frustrating. I really hope Terran becomes super awesome, if this patch makes me wanna play Terran, even though I'm a Protoss, it means they did a damn good job!
o_O Protoss? That same race that lived with 2 base all-ins at WOL and HOTS, and MSC defense + OP adepts at LOTV? Not that well designed sorry  Zerg is BY FAR the best designed race at the 3 expansions.
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Nice.
However solving the issue "can't chat after game" should be a priority. I can't really play the test map because i have this bug and can't chat with anyone who's not an IG friend
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I would like to see all the units have some kind of utility. Lets give BCs, carriers and SHs a place. The more diverse strategies players have available to them, the more interesting the game will be. Blizz seem to be on the right track.
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Makes sense. The patch can't come soon enough
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I deleted starcraft2 because its so boring to play Terran Bio all the way, fight the survival until unbreakable game as Protoss vs Zerg or do the "ling dance" against other Zergs. You can not deviate from the standard game.
Thats more like Guitar-Hero playing the same Song over and over and over and over and over and over again pressing the right buttons in the right order and time.
I know that this is basicly how you become a pro in Sc...but it is fun to play shitty...ehm creative.
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I'm just going to throw some shit out there. I don't know what my icon says, but I've only been playing random on those rare occasions that I've played SC2 in the past 5 years or so. I started out as a Zerg player in WoL when I borderlined as a low-level master player (I've been in and out of masters during the first season).
Personally, I'm still upset that they didn't remove the macro mechanics. I just feel like it's detrimental to my enjoyment of the game. I never played as much SC2 as I did in that short time period where they reduced the need for macro mechanics. In addition to that, I feel like units such as the Queen and MSC detract from my freedom to pick and choose my strategies, both in offence (playing against those units) and defence (where they are basically 100% necessary to be built). Add to that the economic "defence" of the MULE (which allows Terran to sustain worker damage and recover from it), and we've covered all three races somewhat in this respect, I think.
I would like to see a SC2 where these units just aren't absolutely necessary in order to play the game and at the same time deal with my dislike for the macro mechanics.
Maybe increase the natural larvae spawn of hatcheries to the point where queens aren't necessary, or at least not quite as prolific. Remove the spawn larvae ability of queens or reduce it to 1 larva per inject to make it an optional boost if you want more zerglings for your strategy of choice and increase the cost of the queen (maybe 200/50?) and her abilities (50 energy?) so that maybe you'll just have one or two if you really want to spread creep fast or something.
Change the MULE into something where it can provide a boost to the Terran economy without making it necessary to be dropped constantly. Perhaps allow it to be dropped and convert into a building at a faster rate than normal SCVs build them instead of the harvest-resources-at-an-increased-rate ability.
I'm not sure how to handle the MSC at all. It just seems like such an incredible mess of a unit, as you absolutely 100% cannot go around this unit in any shape way or form when you are playing Protoss. I basically hated sentries throughout WoL and HotS for the same reason. Stuff like that just disgusts me as someone who likes to get a choice in where I invest my resources.
It's bad enough that we have to make all these workers all the time (joke!).
Ah well, it's never gonna happen, I guess.
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Zerg has by far the least number of strategic options in each matchup, yet got the least changes.
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On August 20 2016 19:50 a_flayer wrote:
I'm not sure how to handle the MSC at all. It just seems like such an incredible mess of a unit, as you absolutely 100% cannot go around this unit in any shape way or form when you are playing Protoss. I basically hated sentries throughout WoL and HotS for the same reason. Stuff like that just disgusts me as someone who likes to get a choice in where I invest my resources.
It's bad enough that we have to make all these workers all the time (joke!).
Ah well, it's never gonna happen, I guess.
My knowledge on LotV is rather scant but it used to be the case that protoss early game progression was quite forced with many resources dedicated to warpgate research, building the mothership core and somehow building and defending an expansion with sentries and cannons. And I think that if you look at protoss relative to the other two races that you are more locked into certain choices when you build e.g. a stargate.
I recall watching Minigun stream in HotS and he was talking about how he put a lot of effort into completely obscuring his choice of opening from his opponent, to create a set-up where all outwardly observable aspects of his base and army were the exact same every game no matter what he was doing.
And that seems very clever, if annoying to an opponent who might have to guess whether to prepare for air or ground units, but it's also aided by the fact that so much of what protoss is doing is forced and there isn't that much choice.
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i tested the balance map mod for about 20 games, i think the game is a lot more interesting now with the tank and ravager changes, i think those two are the most important changes and they make the game totally diferent.
i would nerf ground cyclone attack and buff anti air lockon damage a bit.
early speed ferrari banshee is maybe too good.
tempest energy ball is not bad for the game IF they make the damage not stackable, because if u stack a couple of balls it becomes almost like a permanent storm dps.
i still hate adepts.
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On August 20 2016 13:11 Thouhastmail wrote:
T: Liberator's mode feels a bit redundant, since Tanks are buffed. Though it`s not identical (e.g. you cannot harass with Tanks), it feels quite overlapping. should be redesigned or removed.
Z: Zerg should get air superiority against Terran in order to deal with Tanks. However, it is not easy to use Mutas against Tanks because of Liberators and Vikings. And we know buffing Muta is out of the question, because it`s harassment would be overpowered. Hence, I`d suggest that Swarm Host be redesigned to make scourges with appropriate cost, making it Zerg version of Carriers.
Ravagers are vulnerable for its cost; its health should be 150 or so.
P: Still, Adept needs nerf; its ability is nonsense, forcing opponents to choose bad moves.So I`d say it should be impossible to recall. Or, simply, make Adepts armoured.
Buffing Zealot's health (10 or so) would be great, making this unit more viable.
Tempest's ability sucks; it is gimmicky(I understand some people do not like this expression, but I had to say), not cool and overlaps with storm. It can paralyze a whole base over 30 seconds, which is nonsense.
Just remove its ability and AG attack. In return, buff its AA bonus damage to counter BC.
Blinking DT is not as bad as I thought. But speed upgrade seems better.
lib AG just add one shot for each unit that counters it, so instead of one or two shot, two to three shot and dmg becomes spell
mutas should be viable in TvZ again, vikings are fine, some tweaks to lib AA splash radius to fix this (light bonus already removed)
with the way units bunch in SC2 and so many hard counters for it, zealots need to close faster and need more health to be useful in main armies again
leg upgrade for zealots also for DTs would be nice
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Not a fan of the Tempest ability. How about making it channeling (the tempest has to stand still and cannot attack while casting)? Buff the radius a little and prevent stacking.
Then the tempest becomes a zone control unit like the liberator, but without stacking and high supply cost hopefully less of a core unit.
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Completely Changing the Fundamentals of the Game
We’ve seen some international feedback requesting that we make drastic, sweeping changes to how the game functions. Though this isn’t representative of the feedback we’re seeing most often, we wanted to make it clear that our goal is to keep StarCraft II similar to the game it is now, while making big improvements within it.
We strongly believe that the worst thing we can do to StarCraft II is make changes that turn it into a completely different type of game. Therefore, we’d like to ask everyone to keep focused on keeping the core fun of StarCraft II while making improvements within the game.
See this is so vague, what are "drastic changes" really? Would be a high ground advantage already fall under that definition? New pathing probably would i guess.
The problem i have with this is that it basically means that blizzard is 100% happy with the basis of sc2, nothing will ever change in that regard. It's actually quite disappointing to me because i don't think that the basis is as good as it could be.
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On August 20 2016 18:10 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2016 18:04 ejozl wrote:
Yeah this is why I'm not too sad about few changes to Protoss, even though Zealot+Carrier is massive changes. Protoss is by far the best designed race in LotV, while Terran is severely lacking behind and every matchup with a Terran in it, is mildly frustrating. I really hope Terran becomes super awesome, if this patch makes me wanna play Terran, even though I'm a Protoss, it means they did a damn good job! o_O Protoss? That same race that lived with 2 base all-ins at WOL and HOTS, and MSC defense + OP adepts at LOTV? Not that well designed sorry Zerg is BY FAR the best designed race at the 3 expansions.
That's a problem of the Protoss early game being fucked by a series of design decisions that have been carried since the ALPHA of SC2. Protoss has always been balanced around the WoL beta version of Chronoboost (burst speed increase, available since the very first moment of each game instead of behind a tech requirement), slow production on gateways ( to balance the combinaison of rushes + chronoboost), and surviving until Warpgate gets completed. I compiled some nerfs related to Warpgate timings and the strength of early game of Protoss back in the very first days of SC2. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jAQ1k4mxCXm654cvQlrcVBXm_uuOtjjjNbv5zzRhrsA/edit?usp=sharing)
We also have to consider that Protoss lacked of a good early game unit that countered Light units (Bio and Hydras).
Since warpgate has always been a very strong mechanic and with the old chronoboost, it had perfect synergy for all-ins. And instead of fixing this vicious relationship between Gateway, Warpgate and Chronoboost, they kept it in HotS because they didn't introduce a good anti-light unit at Gateways to deal with bio, and they bandaided the early game weakness with MSC. In consequence, you had a "turtle with hero unit" design early game, followed by a powerful early-midgame peak (Warpgate completed and a research). Since turtling made early game safer for Protoss, it achieved the exactly opposite objective: It didn't make Protoss much more consistent, but just accelerated the tempo of Warpgate and all-ins at the cost of building a 100/100 unit.
Now that in LotV we've got a good early game unit (Adepts) and Chronoboost was reworked to be research-oriented being a single target, slow-boost mechanic, it is time to rework the vicious relationship of Gateway/Warpgate (caused by the design of Chornoboost) and the need of MSC (caused by having a bad early game production and lacking of a good core unit againt early aggression).
It is pretty simple indeed.
- Using Chronoboost now requires CyberCore (every race has their macroboosters under a paywall). This.
- Reduce build times at Gateways by 10-15s. Maybe reduce build times of some midgame techs like Robo too by 10-5s.
- Study a rebalance of Warpgate, maybe as a mid-game tech, delaying all-in potential (but protoos can straight up be very active with Gateways too).
- Reevaluate the need of MSC and Photon Overcharge, making them a situational need or just straight rework them.
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Am I the only one who feels the Liberator AG is basically redundant with the tank buff?
I would love for the lib's AG to be massively nerfed and the unit remade as a mostly anti-air option. Maybe tech-labbed with 6 damage? So we can actually push with mech before we have 12 turrets and 5 thors.
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EPT
