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On August 16 2016 05:45 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2016 04:55 ROOTFayth wrote:
doesn't make a lot of sense that you would stop BECAUSE of these changes if you played from wings of liberty onwards... expansions were bigger changes than these design changes, you never quit I am just not interested to play against mech, so indeed I almost stopped at the end of HOTS but with good maps veto I avoided it most of the time, although I left the game when I scouted it. Now these are big chances that push mech play in the game, it pushes me out. ^^
You'll not be missed, close the door on the way out.
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The new patch for LOTV is a huge moving forward for SC2. The SC2 team finally wants to make some big design and balance changes not just during a expansion release. So I think I will provide my two cents.
In the new patch, the only changes for swarm host are a cost change and swoop range change, which I think are not going to make this useful again. And the dilemma is that if this unit becomes useful again, it will be the same old boring defensive game with passive swarm host play that many complained.
So I think a complete redesign of this unit is very much needed. Small resign change won't make this unit useful to play and fun to watch. It was changed from ground locus to fly locus and it didn't help.
So this idea of swarm host as a baneling launcher is very straight forward and self-explanatory. The swarm host came out without any normal attack or ability. Now, the swarm host can load up 4 banelings, like loading them into overlord. Use an ability on the swarm host to select a target area (like psi-storm). It is long range and has a good AOE. After you release this ability, the swarm host will shoot up one baneling into the air and then fall down into target area for some good AOE damages. You could release the ability up to 4 times to release all four banelings. You could then load another round of banelings again.
With the strong Terran mech army coming, I think this change is good in gameplay and balance as well. In this way, Zerg has a good way to force engagement or retreat from the Terran mech army. This achieves an important goal: to avoid the passive mech play style from Terran. This is very much in line with the philosophy of the Tempest's new ability: to force Terran mech to engage or to retreat so that there will less 1-hour passive mech games.
Also, the setting, art, and animation of swarm host are totally in line with this idea. When the swarm host loads up banelings, he baneling pops out of those holes on the back of swarm host, just like the locus eggs. It's perfectly fit artistically
Hope you guys like it.
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fyi, they are not patching anything yet. They are only making a testmap for now.
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By the way, if you read the reasoning behind why tankivac is being cut (iconic terran unit, clear strength/weakness that shouldn't be dismissed), and look at the very idea of blink DTs, you'll ask yourself if DK is capable of logical thinking.
The DT is iconic. The DT has clear strengths/weaknesses. And adding blink will completely shit all over it.
Overall the changes to protoss feel very gimmicky. I'm not even sure that the tempest nerf is that much of a nerf : right now mech vs toss can work if you tune your composition really well, and if your opponent goes for tempest, a few cyclones can kill them if you attack early enough. With the new cyclone dealing ten times less AA damage, and the tempest spell, I dunno how if the tempest isn't gonna be just as abusive since it can still kite vikings at 15 range. It all depends on the spell, which needs to be changed : if you can blanket an area with 30 sec ground PB, and send another wave 45 secs later, the more tempest you'll have, the more abusive your comp is gonna be, and the less the terran will be able to chase you. Just like right now.
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On August 16 2016 12:23 JackONeill wrote:
By the way, if you read the reasoning behind why tankivac is being cut (iconic terran unit, clear strength/weakness that shouldn't be dismissed), and look at the very idea of blink DTs, you'll ask yourself if DK is capable of logical thinking.
The DT is iconic. The DT has clear strengths/weaknesses. And adding blink will completely shit all over it.
Overall the changes to protoss feel very gimmicky. I'm not even sure that the tempest nerf is that much of a nerf : right now mech vs toss can work if you tune your composition really well, and if your opponent goes for tempest, a few cyclones can kill them if you attack early enough. With the new cyclone dealing ten times less AA damage, and the tempest spell, I dunno how if the tempest isn't gonna be just as abusive since it can still kite vikings at 15 range. It all depends on the spell, which needs to be changed : if you can blanket an area with 30 sec ground PB, and send another wave 45 secs later, the more tempest you'll have, the more abusive your comp is gonna be, and the less the terran will be able to chase you. Just like right now.
best tempest counter now is probably thors imo
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The Tempest change is what still worries me as with the current numbers on the spell, it seems just as abusable as before, but with the added benefit of killing worker lines and infrastructure in seconds, while still only being countered by air, air that it can kite to oblivion with 15 range.
Overall the changes are fantastic and they can't come soon enough.
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Also the Cyclone lock on can not kill a WP? That has to change.
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So drastic, it's like a new expansion almost... I never understand why competitive games undergo such drastic changes, particularly when it's not at the start of a season/year. With Blizzcon coming this is going to change pro metagame quite a lot and will no doubt make it harder for Koreans to simply roll over the foreigners.
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On August 16 2016 13:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Also the Cyclone lock on can not kill a WP? That has to change.
You can do 2 cyclones opening.
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On August 16 2016 13:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Also the Cyclone lock on can not kill a WP? That has to change.
Yeah, it seems to have less anti-air DPS than a Queen (11.42 vs 12.6)
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On August 16 2016 13:32 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2016 13:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Also the Cyclone lock on can not kill a WP? That has to change. You can do 2 cyclones opening.
I guess, since they can be reactored.
But also they talked about reducing WP hp, so maybe that is also a change incoming.
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People will say i'm biased as fuck etc but SC2 needs huge changes. For people saying stuff about mech this or that, i hope you realize 1% of pro games since SC2's release have been mech games. 99% have been bio or marine+tank games. There is something truely wrong with that.
Tank "buff" is essentially a revert of the old tank nerf that entirely killed mech itself out of viability. Mech is only forced to turtle because of all of the previous nerfs and still not having good anti-air. You're forced to turtle because moving tanks onto the map means you 100% will lose them and they don't even trade with basic units like zealots or zerglings or even marines.
If tanks can trade for their cost...mech games won't just be "sit there till you have 20 ravens" type of games.
The tempest ability is pretty bad they're adding - it's basically psi storm that stays in place for 40 seconds ....tempest + high templar was already bad enough i highly doubt they'll follow through with literally just giving tempests their own free psi storm as that will just re-invent the "mass tempest + high templar" problem without even needing high templar anymore lol.
Besides that i'mt not even gonna comment on the rest of the changes till i play with them myself on the test map. The only worrying thing to me is that they didn't mention anything about 8 armor ultras, viper parasitic bomb, invincible nydus, and mass adepts, which a lot of people will probably agree are ridiculous balance issues that still are in the game. Also i highly doubt it's a good idea to make bio unplayable with a baneling buff, the core unit that fights versus bio lol.
Anyways, my main thoughts about all those changes are - hallelujah. Who gives a fuck if some of the changes are too good or too bad. The point is they're changes that actually change the way we'll play the game rather than this game slowly dying off while every single caster pretends like the same exact 2 rax stim into 16 marine drop into the Terran dying to ultras is the epitome of SC2 strategic gameplay.
I'm sure the SC2 community will give feedback on the changes. We should be happy blizzard finally is making big changes. We should be encouraging blizzard to do exactly shit like this because even if the changes are wrong blizzard finally seems to have the balls to be wrong and then hopefully actually iterate upon those changes and tune them up or down correspondingly.
How can there be any iteration if you're unwilling to make changes in the first place? Imo this patch / re-design announcement is the best thing i've heard in the last 5 yrs for SC2.
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I think that Blizz should make the following changes to Terran:
Make the scan animation a mere shimmer (like cloak) so that it is difficult to guess where the scan range is.
Do a similar thing for the liberation zone.
One of the things that is completely taken for granted is the immense advantage it is having observers that are small and permanently cloaked. It's one thing to see what they opponent is doing. It is another thing entirely to be able to do so WITHOUT the opponent knowing that you're looking at them. That's actually a gigantic passive advantage...
Also, Ravens should be cheaper and quicker to build. Even if they have to take away/displace some abilities. Because, having a permanently cloaked detector unit or creep spanning half the map is way more effective than having the ability to sacrifice ~240 minerals in order to see one area for a few seconds...
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On August 16 2016 13:51 avilo wrote:
How can there be any iteration if you're unwilling to make changes in the first place? Imo this patch / re-design announcement is the best thing i've heard in the last 5 yrs for SC2.
If there's one thing I agree with avilo about it's this.
For those who say the game doesnt need to be changed you need to open your eyes and see how many others have been clamoring for a major redesign. The hesitant, minor tweaks are annoyingly inept when tbh the game design as a whole feels lacklustre.
I still wish they made it less easy to massacre worker lines OR somehow made losing a handful of workers less impactful, but that's a pipe dream obviously. Imo by far the biggest problem with sc2 for getting new players is how quickly you can lose workers and how dire the consequences are.
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When are they looking at implementing these changes? After Blizzcon??
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Workers hover over ground. Perhaps make it so the tempest ability cant damage units that hover.
Just like spidermines cant touch workers in broodwar.
There are rules to be added to the game.
Something i found cool at the same time is if widowmines could shoot stealth units. It just adds another dimension to openings imo which is just fun.
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This is an enormous post. I wish there were an official thread with questions, links, and references. There is just so much information to analyze.
Also, I was surprised that there was no mention of Adepts or Ultralisks. Maybe those units are supposed to be better countered by the other changes?
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On August 16 2016 13:31 Khai wrote:
I never understand why competitive games undergo such drastic changes, particularly when it's not at the start of a season/year.
This. But i guess DK is in the state where "SC2 is only getting worse everyday so let's turn everything on its head we got nothing to lose". I've been saying this for ages: "leave this game alone". It's not healthy for an esport to be changed drastically every half a year. But people continue to drag in their "the more changes the better" casual attitude. It's keeping the game fresh the say. "i'll definitely gonna play after these changes". They said this before the LoTV release, they are saying this now. But the truth is LoTV has A HALF of HoTS playerbase http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=1&r=-2&sx=a&sy=c . Where are you guys, you promised me to play the game, you hyped so much, i believed you. But it all turned out that changes didnt attract new players or make old ones to come back but instead scared off the huge number of dedicated players. I myself did go through a long period of apathy and irritation, and finally overcame that and adapted. But seems like half of the players where lost in the process. Now they are gonna do it again. And all i see is people hyping that w/o even understanding how this will turn out lead by avilo who's only purpose is to attract attention to his person.
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On August 16 2016 10:45 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2016 05:45 Vanadiel wrote:On August 16 2016 04:55 ROOTFayth wrote:
doesn't make a lot of sense that you would stop BECAUSE of these changes if you played from wings of liberty onwards... expansions were bigger changes than these design changes, you never quit I am just not interested to play against mech, so indeed I almost stopped at the end of HOTS but with good maps veto I avoided it most of the time, although I left the game when I scouted it. Now these are big chances that push mech play in the game, it pushes me out. ^^ You'll not be missed, close the door on the way out.
I will keep enjoying the game while it stays like it is right now, and hope they'll do different changes or that the patch proves me wrong when it comes out. So I won't leave right now, so please remains polite and civilized. 
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EPT
