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LotV Design Changes announced - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
907 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 16 17 18 19 20 46 Next All
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-15 08:18:46
August 15 2016 08:11 GMT
#341
The following changes are bad design:

Tanks - Will greatly increase frustration levels especially in TvT which will be even more tilted toward mass tanks and vikings. Turtle and contains will be too strong.

DT blink - Stalkers have blink, copying it to DTs is lazy.

Infestors - Deep tunnel and casting fungal while burrowed is a weird mechanic, and despite having collision they will be difficult to target.

The other changes are fine.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-15 08:13:05
August 15 2016 08:11 GMT
#342
On August 15 2016 16:53 Pandemona wrote:
71 second cooldown for teleport and yamato cooldown seem ermm very long. Obviously there is math behind that but still that is a long time!

Energy regeneration takes place at 0.7875 e/s. The average energy cost of tactical jump and yamato cannon is 112.5. So on average you can use one of them every 142.xx seconds. 71 is half of 142, meaning that you can use the abilities twice (four times if you use both) as often as before, which might be the intention. Of course that's not taking into account energy build up and energy caps which complicates the calculation.

Obviously this is nonsensical speculation, but I thought it was funny. :p
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
August 15 2016 08:22 GMT
#343
40% increase in Tank damage ?

haha
Best joke I heard all year.
*burp*
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
August 15 2016 08:27 GMT
#344
On August 15 2016 17:11 paralleluniverse wrote:
The following changes are bad design:

Tanks - Will greatly increase frustration levels especially in TvT which will be even more tilted toward mass tanks and vikings. Turtle and contains will be too strong.

DT blink - Stalkers have blink, copying it to DTs is lazy.

Infestors - Deep tunnel and casting fungal while burrowed is a weird mechanic, and despite having collision they will be difficult to target.

The other changes are fine.


1) Stronger tanks MIGHT lead to more turtling. They might also lead to more safe aggressive play since it is easier to defend at home.

2) Copying is indeed lazy, but that doesn't make it bad.

3) Why would they be any more difficult to target than any other cloaked unit? Infestors are biiig.
JoeCool
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany2517 Posts
August 15 2016 08:33 GMT
#345
So Blizzard is serious about these changes? I though this was a joke O_o
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-15 08:44:43
August 15 2016 08:42 GMT
#346
On August 15 2016 02:26 Saechiis wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that they're basically resetting tanks to their beta state?

Must say this is a breath of fresh air though

Moreover, I consider that siege tanks must be buffed (to echo the phrase) is something that half of the community has been saying since ancient times. Blizzard recently has taken to trying to give the community what they want, so it's not a surprise that given breathing room David Kim will elect to move it in that direction. It used to be the case that they would rarely revert changes or radically rework units, but that was under Dustin Browder's leadership, David Kim has been more willing to. Revert siege tank pick-up, which is a recent yet unpopular innovation, exploit the gradual power creep the game has suffered from and compensate the siege tank by the only means available: a strong damage increase, which coincidentally is in line with community requests.

By the way, the WoL beta tank was still quite different. It progressed from 60, to 50, to 35(+15) damage. The new suggestion is for 40(+30) damage. Even if you could theorize that there is more similarity because of a spiritual connection to Brood War it should be kept in mind that Blizzard didn't lower the tank damage because of some conceptual decision to move away from Brood War but because of the environment at the time (rush maps, a general concern with strong area of effect damage, lower playing skill resulting in more camping). The more pressing question is not whether Blizzard should have left the siege tank alone back then in order to force players to adjust, which is somewhat pedantic, but to ask why Blizzard didn't take another look at the siege tank when starting with Heart of the Swarm.

By the way, there are more fundamental reasons why even the LotV2.0 siege tank will likely not live up to expectations and that's because of the increased speed and dynamism of the units that lets them easily exploit the immobile siege tank. At the same time, tanks have more potential in SC2 than in BW because of the removal of overkill and the new pathfinding. Powerful tanks will be unstoppable in decent numbers, instantly killing every army that by accident walks into them, unlike Brood War where only the first layer of units would absorb most of the damage. That's not merely a question of balance but also of comfort level for players, it might be that because tanks are beloved units their little problems can be easily forgiven, but it might also lead to annoyance with tanks. It also depends on how easily one can exploit tanks' immobility with tactics, or with spells like blinding cloud.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-15 08:51:14
August 15 2016 08:51 GMT
#347
The more pressing question is not whether Blizzard should have left the siege tank alone back then in order to force players to adjust, which is somewhat pedantic, but to ask why Blizzard didn't take another look at the siege tank when starting with Heart of the Swarm.


They actually did. They adjusted some stuff like removing the research on seige mode, but the widow mine (new child of HOTS) quickly took over through balance changes as being "the thing" to support bio.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
August 15 2016 08:56 GMT
#348
70 dmg tank ? And players say it's good for the game ?

Why not lurker with 13 range +30 vs armor and no upgrade to lurker den required if positionnal play if so good !


Creating a no man's land of 13 range around the unit isn't good for the game.

The unit comes way earlier than its counter.

And while 70 dmg is already OP they nerf ravager so it will take 70 dmg /shot or decrease broodlords range for no reason.

And bio still OP as before with larvas nerf.

Sadly a make terran op patch cause they give way more to T than they give to Z/P.
Asturas
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Finland587 Posts
August 15 2016 08:58 GMT
#349
I like that they are ready to introduce radical changes. However I don't believe it's good. The problem is going to be same as usually. All these "new" units are now designed to be overpowered, one way or the other. In the process of balancing the game they will require a lot of nerfing.

Secondly, I am not a big fan of OP units. I understand that this kind of design implies that OP units are countered by other OP units, but I simply don't enjoy this kind of solutions.

Of course, this is just my initial thought. I hope that I am all wrong and this SC2.5 will be really fun to play
There are no boundaries, that's the final conclusion.
MiCroLiFe
Profile Joined March 2012
Norway264 Posts
August 15 2016 09:01 GMT
#350
On August 15 2016 17:56 Tyrhanius wrote:
70 dmg tank ? And players say it's good for the game ?

Why not lurker with 13 range +30 vs armor and no upgrade to lurker den required if positionnal play if so good !


Creating a no man's land of 13 range around the unit isn't good for the game.

The unit comes way earlier than its counter.

And while 70 dmg is already OP they nerf ravager so it will take 70 dmg /shot or decrease broodlords range for no reason.

And bio still OP as before with larvas nerf.

Sadly a make terran op patch cause they give way more to T than they give to Z/P.



about time terran got a patch zerg been 2 stronk in lotv
Im Terran. Yes i will balance whine somethimes. And thats how we terrans survive, Hoping for balance patches<3
KaiserJohan
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1808 Posts
August 15 2016 09:07 GMT
#351
When doing this anyway why on earth not do something about sentries and forcefields!?!?
England will fight to the last American
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
August 15 2016 09:07 GMT
#352
Mech is thier top priority goal right now.That why z/p got redesigned around it.
But new DT is kinda weird tho.
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
August 15 2016 09:09 GMT
#353
If some stuff turns out to be too strong, they can always nerf things from there.
I'd rather they do radical changes, find out X and Y are a bit OP and bring them back into line as opposed to never doing changes at all or doing very minor ones.

At the very least we could probably learn a lot from such changes since we'll actually get a chance to try out 70 damage tanks. Maybe it IS hugely OP, but how can we really know that for sure without trying it out?

As said, I'd rather that they give tanks 70 damage now and then later reduce it to 60 damage if 70 turned out to be OP, rather than giving them a minor change like +5 damage vs armored only and never looking at the tank again afterwards.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-15 09:15:57
August 15 2016 09:12 GMT
#354
On August 15 2016 17:51 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
The more pressing question is not whether Blizzard should have left the siege tank alone back then in order to force players to adjust, which is somewhat pedantic, but to ask why Blizzard didn't take another look at the siege tank when starting with Heart of the Swarm.


They actually did. They adjusted some stuff like removing the research on seige mode, but the widow mine (new child of HOTS) quickly took over through balance changes as being "the thing" to support bio.

Myeah, but it wasn't really a serious attempt and they had been removing other upgrades around that time. The small attack speed increase was mostly for show too.

But it's true that the widow mine seemed a superior alternative better suited to SC2's quick pace and the demands of bio armies. The game is actually full of units that have been overshadowed by their younger, more attractive cousins. It's not at all obvious what should be done with them (send them to a farm upstate?).
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
WhosQuany
Profile Joined June 2013
Germany257 Posts
August 15 2016 09:21 GMT
#355
The only change I love is the Tank change (im Protoss btw) Tankyvac is just to gimmicky in my eyes.

The other Terran changes we will have to see.

Dont like the fact the Stalkers get rekt by Cyclones...so now we need Immortal to fight cyclones slow ass Immortal? and Imagine if they get the faster banshees with Cyclones and Tanks

Cyclone < Stalker (no more AA) Banshee < Protoss army gg`s (oh yeah landed Vikings < Stalkers too)

But i still I hope we will see a Terran Mech Army Turteling with mass Siege Tanks, Turrets (and i guess Thors & Cyclones???) slow pushing the map. (Like BW) so you never know if the Terran is going Mech or Bio without scouting

Don't like Battlecruiser change no more Feedback or EMP? Strong buff they way i see it

Raven change is ok i think

The Protoss changes are so lame really just lame

TEMPEST CHANGE:

PLS Just REMOVE the TEMPEST and make other Stargate units viable again (yes too Carrier change)

Tempest are too expensive and now they have to get in a Tanks face? or a Thors face? and now Tempest can`t even Counter LURKER anymore cause they have to get in their face?

Disruption Sphere: lol? PSI STORM from a Tempest? no thanks Trash the Tempest even though this could counter LURKER play

VOIDRAYS:
Give us back our Speed Voids FLUX VANES Upgrade wiki.teamliquid.net

Zealot:
yeah Zealot speed finally "Hell, its about damn time"

Dark Templar:

Don't know about giving them "Blink" doesn't feel right

How about not having a Dark Shrine for the requirement of Dark Templar

Remove Dark Shrine like in BW Dark Templar can be built from Templar Archives

this way an you never now if a Protoss is going Storm or getting Dark Templar or both

#Zerglife

Ravager:

Think is ok (due to Hydra Bane buff)

Swarm Host:

I think this is like the Tempest JUST TRASH IT

Hydralisk:

kinda like the zealot change: "Hell, its about damn time"

Baneling:

tbh i never really liked the Baneling - building a unit that self destructs is just not my Style but the Change seems fine

Infestor:

I Like it having burrowed Spell Caster is awesome!

Broodlord:

Logical

Cant wait to try these things!
Goin back to Cali
Gen.Rolly
Profile Joined September 2011
United States200 Posts
August 15 2016 09:22 GMT
#356
[B]

Zerg changes are kind of bleh but I play Zerg and we're getting mostly nerfs or minor changes so whatever. The Hydralisk changes looks totally phenomenal, Hydralisks are total crap against units that they should be strong against, all of the crying Protoss players need only see that almost every unit in the Protoss arsenal shits on Hydralisks and they will realize they are just being race biased. Zealots, Adepts (omg), Archons, Carriers, Phoenix (rofl), Colossus, High Templar, if it wasn't that they turned into Lurkers nobody would even build Hydralisks in ZvP and already nobody builds them in ZvT, the unit needed and deserved a buff.



You forgot Immortals, Blink Stalkers, and Disruptors also shit on Hydralisks.
Vector locked in.
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
August 15 2016 09:26 GMT
#357
Armor and Weapon upgrades are going to be downright critical on the Cyclone.
I used to the think the Reaper suffered from this vs Zealots but with the Cyclones firing so fast for only 3 damage (6 vs armored), it's going to be interesting times when you get behind or ahead in upgrades.

I wonder if rushing to +2 attack on the armory to get fast 5 damage Cyclones could be a thing.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
Isualin
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1903 Posts
August 15 2016 09:43 GMT
#358
On August 15 2016 18:21 WhosQuany wrote:
Disruption Sphere: lol? PSI STORM from a Tempest? no thanks Trash the Tempest even though this could counter LURKER play

I think this ability could be utilized really well.
13 cast range, 14 dps for 32 seconds and 43 second cooldown(~75% uptime)
| INnoVation | The literal god TY | ByuNjwa | LRSL when? |
althaz
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1001 Posts
August 15 2016 09:44 GMT
#359
Tank damage buff!

6 years too late, but it's finally here!

Now, if only they'd reduce it to 2 supply.

On the other hand, I've played way more Broodwar than SC2 for some reason this year .
The first rule we don't talk about race conditions. of race conditions is
althaz
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1001 Posts
August 15 2016 09:54 GMT
#360
On August 15 2016 18:22 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Show nested quote +
[B]

Zerg changes are kind of bleh but I play Zerg and we're getting mostly nerfs or minor changes so whatever. The Hydralisk changes looks totally phenomenal, Hydralisks are total crap against units that they should be strong against, all of the crying Protoss players need only see that almost every unit in the Protoss arsenal shits on Hydralisks and they will realize they are just being race biased. Zealots, Adepts (omg), Archons, Carriers, Phoenix (rofl), Colossus, High Templar, if it wasn't that they turned into Lurkers nobody would even build Hydralisks in ZvP and already nobody builds them in ZvT, the unit needed and deserved a buff.



You forgot Immortals, Blink Stalkers, and Disruptors also shit on Hydralisks.

Stalkers are absolutely destroyed by Hydras for cost. Blink Stalkers can be great if the micro and positioning is spot on and you aren't expecting them. As a core part of an army, they are pretty bad vs Hydras. Immortals also lose to Hydras for cost, so not sure what you are talking about there either .
The first rule we don't talk about race conditions. of race conditions is
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