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Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 00:02 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote:
Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore.
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won.
I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Terran already has plenty of units for that. What terran doesnt have is reliable mech anti-air. The design decisions with the Cyclone dont make much sense to me.
I agree but Blizz has been very stubborn about not introducing a Goliath 2.0 and it's happy to see air being the main counter to air. It's an awful decision IMO but it's not going to change.
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On June 18 2016 00:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2016 00:02 RoomOfMush wrote:On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote:
Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore.
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won.
I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Terran already has plenty of units for that. What terran doesnt have is reliable mech anti-air. The design decisions with the Cyclone dont make much sense to me. I agree but Blizz has been very stubborn about not introducing a Goliath 2.0 and it's happy to see air being the main counter to air. It's an awful decision IMO but it's not going to change.
Because fucking viking still exists.Viking and corruptor were a mistake.
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Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 00:25 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2016 00:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 18 2016 00:02 RoomOfMush wrote:On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote:
Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore.
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won.
I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Terran already has plenty of units for that. What terran doesnt have is reliable mech anti-air. The design decisions with the Cyclone dont make much sense to me. I agree but Blizz has been very stubborn about not introducing a Goliath 2.0 and it's happy to see air being the main counter to air. It's an awful decision IMO but it's not going to change. Because fucking viking still exists.Viking and corruptor were a mistake.
The entire idea that air should be the best counter to air was a mistake. They are holding on to that with 2 expansions now, so they are not going to change it. Air wars are here to stay.
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On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote:
Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore.
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won.
I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention.
When David Kim was introducing cyclone to genealogy public, it was said it was intended to be factory AA
Don't know why it isn't some kind of long range AA or something.
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Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 03:04 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote:
Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore.
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won.
I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. When David Kim was introducing cyclone to genealogy public, it was said it was intended to be factory AA Don't know why it isn't some kind of long range AA or something.
Yeah but, when they introduced HOTS they said for Terran the goal was to make mech viable in al 3 MUs, never happened. When they introduced LOTV they said the same. Not to long ago they said "do we really want mech?"
So, what they say and what they do are 2 very different things.
They will say anything when there is something to sell, but when it becomes clear that the goal is not in reach, instead of admitting it and working on it, they deflect and rewrite intentions.
So the Cyclone, it should have been a goliath. What it is, IMO, IF mech ever becomes viable, is a unit that can put pressure. Since Hellions are extremely limited compared to Vultures, it's a sort of replacement.
It's amazing how 6 factory units in SC2 have so much less use and synergy compared to 3 factory units of BW. Ego or design fail? Probably both.
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Air to ground is just way too ridiculous. That used to be reserved for capital ships and well controlled Mutalisks. It's not even an air to air issue, it's the fact that units like the Banshee, Medic, Oracle and Voidray exist combined with unlimited unit selection and you get easy to control extremely high dps air balls. I wonder what would happen to sc2 if nothing but Mutas, Scourge, Dropships, Wraith, and Corsair were ported over. Combine that with a Capital ship rebalance and you'd have an interesting dynamic.
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Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 04:05 ecnahc wrote:
Air to ground is just way too ridiculous. That used to be reserved for capital ships and well controlled Mutalisks. It's not even an air to air issue, it's the fact that units like the Banshee, Medic, Oracle and Voidray exist combined with unlimited unit selection and you get easy to control extremely high dps air balls. I wonder what would happen to sc2 if nothing but Mutas, Scourge, Dropships, Wraith, and Corsair were ported over. Combine that with a Capital ship rebalance and you'd have an interesting dynamic.
I agree with the idea but not the specifics. Banshees Oracles, Voids, Mutas, can be fought by ground easily. It's Libs, BLs, Tempests that are the problem IMO. These 3 in numbers become impossible to counter with ground, and force air vs air.
Bah, words wasted in a forum. I don't know what DK sees as great in air battles, but i know i'l never see it.
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That's what I meant with the capital ship comment, Tempest, Liberator and Brood Lord all count as big guns to me. The units I named I feel are too easily accessible for the amount of power they have, minus Mutalisks, especially with the sped up economy.
The simple fact that the other four units exist and possess the power they do greatly influences the game. The amount of viable openings you have if you can actually take terrain into account is absurd.
Air play should be an investment, not a requirement five minutes into half of the matchups. MSC could be safely removed, Mutalisk regeneration reverted and Tanks put back on the ground where they belong.
The flip side of slowing air play down is that the option to drop or take advantage of a greedy build with a clever all in still exists. Giving you more diverse strategies as well.
SC2 in its current state is essentially a rush to your most efficient composition, outside of a few situations, this drastically lowers the number of options you have. Currently you are shackled by the fact that crippling, game ending damage can come from any direction after a certain amount of time has passed.
I'm not saying the option to avoid terrain shouldn't exist I'm just saying that 3:30 Oracles, 5:15 Prisms, and 5:15 mine drops should not be a matter of course, rather a conscious decision you make.
Putting Dropship afterburner at Fusion Core and suddenly the standard Terran win condition of queueing rally car speed drops while Zerg runs around in circles defending whIle they pray they can reach Hive intact and pop out their own nonsense no longer exists. Put Warp tech at Beacon and suddenly maps become a whole lot bigger. Expansion choice becomes far more important! Choke points become relevant!
This is quite similiar to how ZvZ plays out currently, you have multiple openings and multiple defensive and aggressive strategies because as long as you scout that Spire Mutalisks are entirely defendable with Spores and Queens while you progress towards your own answer to prevent the critical mass of Mutalisks and the map control they provide from overwhelming you. Of course there are tons of other things going on that influence ZvZ, it's hard to deny how different the game state feels when you do not have to think about that 5 minute nuke coming your way and dictating your every movement.
I agree with the words on a forum thing, but I also feel that the more you get this kind of shit out the less it bothers you in the actual game. Stress relief if you will.
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On June 18 2016 03:04 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote:
Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore.
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won.
I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. When David Kim was introducing cyclone to genealogy public, it was said it was intended to be factory AA Don't know why it isn't some kind of long range AA or something.
Don't know why they nerfed both air + ground and didn't keep its AA capability and turn it into AA specialist.
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would be cool if cyclone had a transformation mode just like hellion into hellbat
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EPT
