EPTBug fix says it shouldn't get to 5 range after using lock on, they do inch forward while the ability is activating, but thats just a bit, nowhere near the 2 range difference.
Cyclone Fix Tomorrow - Page 4
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
Bug fix says it shouldn't get to 5 range after using lock on, they do inch forward while the ability is activating, but thats just a bit, nowhere near the 2 range difference. | ||
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realityyy
Germany50 Posts
Being able to kite entire armies witout problem is a really great idea. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On June 17 2016 03:55 realityyy wrote: Great change, played 3 games today and i will quit sc2 again. Being able to kite entire armies witout problem is a really great idea. they can't even kite roaches without taking hits, so not sure what you're getting at. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
The cyclone should also stop moving forward after autocasting, if anyone is seeing instances of it running forward all the way to range 5 after autocasting from an a-move, that's a bug and should be reported. Due to the animation a little slip forward is acceptable, but if it's running into 5 range like before the 3.2.0 patch, that's a big. In this case they should just make the main weapon 7 range to mitigate the slip if they're unwilling to completely fix it . | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
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The_Frozen_Inferno
Canada98 Posts
Two important mechanics to understand about abilities in SC2: 1. There are 2 broad kinds of effect abilities - Instant and Target. - Instant abilities are the ones like Stim. Because they happen 'instantly', they do not enter into the unit's order queue. This is why marines can run and stim while running. Similar mechanics allow banshees to cloak and decloak while on-the-move. Using these abilities does not interrupt the unit's current actions. - Target abilities, like psi storm, are entered into a unit's order queue. The when issued the Storm command, the high Templar drops its current activities (such as moving) and activates its ability that in turn creates various effects. 2. Auto-Cast is a field on abilities that attempt to activate an ability without needing player input (eg. hotkey press); usually there are requirement fields that are added in to determine when the ability should attempt to cast itself. In the case of Forcefield (forcefields are considered units), it auto-casts the [Ability - Instant: Suicide] on itself in the case where a unit with the [Massive] tag is within melee range of it. *** Lock-On is a [Target] type ability. It now has a cooldown of 6 blizzard seconds and a max casting range of 7. It also has a max autocast range of 7. As a Target-type ability, its activation cancels standing orders or must wait for its current queued order to finish. Note that auto-cast is of a lower priority than human input. So auto-cast will NOT override a human-issued Move command for example. The behavior some players are seeing can be explained in these way with these mechanics in mind: Case 1: I. While auto-cast is on, the cyclone is given an attack command directly on the marine bunker (range 6) II. Because the cyclone's basic weapon is range 5, it attempts to close into maximum attack range from the target III. Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because of priority IV. Once the cyclone reaches its weapon attack range of 5, it immediately begins attacking. While attacking, auto-cast still does not have priority; it cannot interrupt the fire sequence V. ONLY once the cyclone 'stops' or 'holds position' or otherwise go idle does an auto-cast ability have a chance to cast itself. Case 2: I. While auto-cast is on, the cyclone is given a Scan-move command NEAR the location of the marine bunker (range 6) II. With Scan-move (or A-move as it is often called) as the current order, it will Move in that direction until the weapon scans a target that it can fire at. III. Because the cyclone's basic weapon is range 5, the scan range is also 5. IV. Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because the manually-issued Scan-move is still priority V. Once the cyclone scans a viable attack target at range 5, it shifts from Scan-move into Attack mode. However, in this briefest of moments in between the two states, Auto-cast can interject itself in the gap of actions and Lock-On will auto-cast itself *** If you attempt to use only a move-command to drive the Cyclone near the bunker, you will find that the Cyclone will never use its Lock-On ability either - whether it's at range 7, 5 or 1. However, the instant you press the 'stop' or 'hold position' then the targeting ability will have an opportunity to auto-cast. AFTER using Lock-On, the Cyclone does not inch forward or attempt to use its basic weapon. In fact, while Lock-On is activated, its normal attack is suppressed or turned off. However, the crux of the matter is that Lock-on is not even being used, nor is it given a chance to be auto-cast when at range 7. *note that the first moment of getting Lock-On to start up and actually 'lock on' is what cannot be used while on the Move; however, the ensuing missile barrage effect can be used on the Move. **** Of course, you can manually cast Lock-on by pressing C. Like with any other Target-type ability, issuing this order cancels any other standing order. Likewise, it can be shift-queued to make the cyclone run as soon as it locks on at maximum range. Interestingly, Lock-On is not set to be a smart-command for Right-click on the Cyclone. Right-clicking on an enemy unit defaults to Attack as usual. It could, however, with the check of a box be made to cast Lock-On instead. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because the manually-issued Scan-move is still priority But this isn't true. If you A-move close to a marine (range 5) you can see lock-on triggers before you enter range 5. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
But seriously, the unit still has not been fixed. 4 supply? It's the same supply as a tempest lol. Though that may be more a balance issue of the tempest than the cyclone... But eh...an auto turret has more DPS/health than a cyclone. An auto-turret is zero supply. Why would i ever want to make any more than 1-2 cyclones per game when 2 ravens can basically provide me with the DPS/Health of potentially EIGHT cyclones lol (4 auto turret per raven, every auto-turret is approximately equivalent to 1 cyclone). I don't understand why there's some anti-Terran bias at blizzard "we don't want players making mass cyclones" yet every single pro-game of Z/P is literally 100% roach/ravager spam or adepts @_@ The unit needs a re-design/number changes/supply decrease imo. Great the bug is fixed, the unit itself still is not addressed. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 17 2016 08:43 avilo wrote: Aaaaaaaaand cyclones are still garbage. -_- But seriously, the unit still has not been fixed. 4 supply? It's the same supply as a tempest lol. Though that may be more a balance issue of the tempest than the cyclone... But eh...an auto turret has more DPS/health than a cyclone. An auto-turret is zero supply. Why would i ever want to make any more than 1-2 cyclones per game when 2 ravens can basically provide me with the DPS/Health of potentially EIGHT cyclones lol (4 auto turret per raven, every auto-turret is approximately equivalent to 1 cyclone). I don't understand why there's some anti-Terran bias at blizzard "we don't want players making mass cyclones" yet every single pro-game of Z/P is literally 100% roach/ravager spam or adepts @_@ The unit needs a re-design/number changes/supply decrease imo. Great the bug is fixed, the unit itself still is not addressed. Massable or not doesnt matter.I just want to see them in action in mid game just like blizzard said. Oh wait.....pros still produce 1-2 cyclones in early game and forget it 4ver as usual. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On June 14 2016 22:40 Sapphire.lux wrote: With the fix, we might be able to put much more pressure with Cyclones. Might... | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On June 17 2016 06:19 The_Frozen_Inferno wrote: Case 1: I. While auto-cast is on, the cyclone is given an attack command directly on the marine bunker (range 6) II. Because the cyclone's basic weapon is range 5, it attempts to close into maximum attack range from the target III. Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because of priority IV. Once the cyclone reaches its weapon attack range of 5, it immediately begins attacking. While attacking, auto-cast still does not have priority; it cannot interrupt the fire sequence V. ONLY once the cyclone 'stops' or 'holds position' or otherwise go idle does an auto-cast ability have a chance to cast itself. This is not the normal behavior of the unit. Go into a game or unit tester and see for yourself. It usually autocasts properly when it runs into 7 range. This is expected behavior. However, sometimes it doesn't do that. When I tested it right after the patch it initially took me about 10 tries to replicate where it finally ran into 5 range and started shooting its main weapon without locking on. I did nothing special or different, I was careful to start the cyclone from the same distance away and a-move to the same location. You can use multiple and larger numbers of targets to get it to happen, but the cylcones cycling targets due to other cyclones locking on and bumping into each other seems to mitigate it. Though I did see up to 3 of 6 cyclones decide to fire their main weapons once instead of locking on in testing the unit to see if this bug had been resolved. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Then Cyclones would be more reliable and we could balance from there. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
The good They are fun to use You can use it to put pressure on the opponent in the early midgame. This is good versus Protoss since you be aggressive instead of having to be defensive when using mech in TvP. The bad They produce too slowly They are not good enough to be worth their supply in a battle. Versus Protoss They are hardcountered by Disruptors. If they build Disruptors all your cyclones instantly becomes worthless. Their is no real counterplay to the Disruptors when you have invested much in cyclones. Your Cyclone/hellion force can never reach the Disruptors, all you can do is to run away. Air do not work since you cannot invest enough into banshees or liberators to get to kill their Disruptors before their stalkers kill your air units. If you play bio you could maybe do drops all over the place as a counterplay but if you use mech you have basically lost the game the moment they start building Disruptors and you have 10+ cyclones. Blink stalkers also hard counter cyclones, just blink in to get a surround of the cyclones and you have basically won the game. Versus Zerg Cyclone/hellion does not really work against a Zerg player that make units. Only if Zerg plays very greedy can you overwhelm their forces. Ling/bling/muta hardcounter cyclone/hellion and so does pure roaches and roach/ravager. Basically their is no realistic way for Zerg to lose against Cyclone except if gets very greedy. It i is possible that they could work against Ultras, I do not know since it is hard to survive midgame if you invest in cyclones. Summary: The cyclone is a fun unit to use but it does not really work against opponents that know what they are doing. They have too many counters and are not strong enough in straight up battle. They are basically not worth their supply. Solution Lower their supply cost to 3. Increase their hitponts from 120 to 140. | ||
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ecnahc
United States395 Posts
If it doesn't scale with upgrades it won't be massed so Blizzard would be happy and Terrans would have something new out of the Factory. I just hope they decide to make it either ground to ground or ground to air only so that it is specialized enough to not just be another homogenous hp sponge or source of dps. I think a mobile ground to air rocket battery could be a pretty cool unit if it was handled well. Imagine a grounded anti-armor Valkyrie with Goliath range, that'd definitely mince up some Tempests and Broodlords. An 11 range ground to air "dumb fire" attack similar to how Lurker spines work, fast units could move out of the way, slow units would take a beating. + Show Spoiler + Hell it could even be the Factory spell caster people have been looking for. Perhaps with that armor reduction drone from beta, or any one of a number of campaign abilities. There's an autocast kind of corruption ability from the campaign sentries, as well as an attack speed increase for friendly units. Maybe some kind of siege speed increase, that'd be different and definitely change how Tanks play right now. Imagine if Tanks could siege up in a fraction of the time they do now, they might even edge out the mighty Liberator in zone control. Strong abilities like this would justify the supply and build times and it'd be pretty sweet. Lastly, of all the stats they could possibly increase I pray it is not movement speed. We really do not need any more fast units, it's gotten out of control. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 17 2016 16:32 MockHamill wrote: These are my experience post patch with the Cyclone. The good You can use it to put pressure on the opponent in the early midgame. This is good versus Protoss since you be aggressive instead of having to be defensive when using mech in TvP. The bad They are not good enough to be worth their supply in a battle. [b] I think that's that point and it would be nice if that were the case up to pro play. A tool to put some pressure on when going mech, but not strong enough that you would want to make an army out of. Because it's balanced all around the lock on kiting, i think it's a unit that you HAVE to put pressure with, because as a simple stand and fight unit it's not so good. A sort of reaper if you will. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won. I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote: Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore. In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won. I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Problem is lots of pressure better for less resources. Hellions are better for killing workers for much less investment, banshees forces detection from the opponent, a medicac with marines can do almost anything etc It is also easy to lose the cyclones to speedlings, they really do not give much map control in any matchup except maybe versus Protoss in some instances. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:56 MockHamill wrote: Problem is lots of pressure better for less resources. Hellions are better for killing workers for much less investment, banshees forces detection from the opponent, a medicac with marines can do almost anything etc It is also easy to lose the cyclones to speedlings, they really do not give much map control in any matchup except maybe versus Protoss in some instances. Yeah, it's against Protoss i could see it most useful in early game pressure. Against Zerg Hellions and Tankvacs are great. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Terran already has plenty of units for that. What terran doesnt have is reliable mech anti-air. The design decisions with the Cyclone dont make much sense to me. | ||
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