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BioNova
United States598 Posts
On May 17 2016 21:23 Musicus wrote: Stephano taught us not to take gas too early and how to defend your early third base with the bare minimum of units. As great as Stephano was, Spanishiwa was at the forefront of this movement. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20274 Posts
On May 18 2016 04:28 BioNova wrote: As great as Stephano was, Spanishiwa was at the forefront of this movement. Ahaha that's a name that i have not heard for a looooong time :D | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13959 Posts
On May 18 2016 05:03 Cyro wrote: Ahaha that's a name that i have not heard for a looooong time :D Oh spanishiwa, its been too long  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On May 18 2016 04:36 usethis2 wrote: There was Kyrix_Zenex waaaaaaaay before ST_Life became a thing. His time was admittedly short (I do not think he was into the game that much) but he was one Z who knew how to be aggressive. He just did a dum 2 base baneling all in that had no long time impact on the meta. The only reason it worked was because terran didn't open reactor hellion. | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia237 Posts
On May 17 2016 21:16 Olli wrote: Disagree with the protoss part. I think for the development of protoss as a race and figuring out how to properly play macro games, even during a time when protoss was horribly underpowered, (former) LiquidHerO stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:
And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO. PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo. I am a true and true HerO fanboy, but this in not a fanboy post, its reality. Warp prism was built into the game by Blizzard, but its role was decided by HerO himself | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
i agree with Olli about HerO's contribution | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On May 18 2016 04:28 BioNova wrote: As great as Stephano was, Spanishiwa was at the forefront of this movement. I dunno, maybe if you say so, but Stephano made it work vs the best players in the world. I know that Spanishiwa demonstrated how good queens are, but I don't think he took the third as early as Stephano. Still he was definitely an innovator and fun to watch! | ||
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
It was because of the fruit vendor that all zergs learned to cycle between drone production and unit production. The one player that defied that rule was Life, and that is why he will be the best zerg of sc2. And on the Terran side, MKP invented terran micro, literally. That's half of the terran game, come on. Jinro deserves some credit when it comes to terran macro: more than Mvp, imo. Despite Mvp being the GOAT of sc2, his contributions to terran mechanics are sparse. He was the king of one-off builds and strategy tweaks. But defining terran macro, idk, Jinro for me is the one we should credit for establishing the basis of terran macro, especially in his two semifinals runs at GSL. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
That single map changed the very basic rules of unit interaction in TvT for the rest of time TL writers sure like their hyperboles. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
Jinro deserves some credit when it comes to terran macro: more than Mvp, imo. No not even close. Watch MVP play in 2010 and compare that to Jinro. MVP's playstyle is by far the most modern you'll find of any player in 2010. On the other hand Jinro does some weird ass stuff and often relies on cheesy stuff to get ahead. | ||
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Aiingel
243 Posts
On May 18 2016 02:06 BronzeKnee wrote: I find this article interesting because I've been slowly writing a piece focused on the history of the Mutalisk in SC2 and how each race countered it, displaying how the game has become increasingly easier to play and watered down strategically. The difficulty in playing SC2 now compared to before is that the game is faster. Economies develop quicker, bases mine out faster, and units move literally faster, as compared to WOL. The game at its height, while it was slower, was strategically far richer, in part because it was slower, but also due the lack of hard counters. Unfortunately, WOL reached an impasse strategically due certain unit and abilities being too strong (Fungal, Vortex, ect.) and Blizzard had no idea what to do. To put it into the context of this article, there is a lot less to "figure out" or develop strategically now because of hard counters. And this is because Blizzard's balancing focus has been, and probably always will be, on individual units and not strategies. It is why they could never balance even basic strategies like the 4 Gate, the 1-1-1, Stephanos Roach Max, or the Soul Train as the the units themselves in those individual all-ins weren't "unbalanced" and Blizzard literally spun their wheels. Blizzard's solution to a problem was always to introduce a new unit that was a hard counter. And that is why we have things like Photon Overcharge. I should finish my piece. This sounds really interesting, but how in the world can you balance strategies? That doesn't seem to make sense? We have the units, we devise the strategies, no? | ||
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ZeBigMarn
Australia30 Posts
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Hexe
United States332 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On May 18 2016 11:46 Aiingel wrote: This sounds really interesting, but how in the world can you balance strategies? That doesn't seem to make sense? We have the units, we devise the strategies, no? Difficult things are difficult, but certainly not impossible. You have to understand, predict and plan for the interaction between units and how different matchups will be affected. And then make changes when players use them in different ways. It goes way beyond basic interaction between individual units. It isn't really that difficult in game design honestly, especially if someone like me can do it. But Blizzard's focus has always been on individual units and counters, and the examples are literally endless since it is all Blizzard does (or doesn't do since they've shown a complete inability to balance strategies)... perhaps my favorite was the knee-jerk Thor nerf after Thorzain used Strike Cannons to wreck Immortals in TSL3. Looking only at the individual units certainly made it feel imbalanced, but Protoss had a lot of other choices... but no worries, Blizzard made sure that Immortals would counter Thors as they had intended. In the end, you can only change units, but a unit should be thought of as a part of strategies, and not as an individual unit, since we only use units in a strategic context, no? Blizzard can't see the forest due to the trees. Their thinking starts at stops at the unit level. And that is why they've never been able to balance strategies. Why? PvZ, at it's height of game certainly had more strategic diversity than today. This was before maps allowed Zerg to turtle to Broodlord/Infestor, but after the Void/Colossus/Stalker deathball era. And if you think about the great interactions we have in modern PvZ, it is between units that don't hard counter each other. That is actually true across matchups, the interaction between hard counters is boring. And is especially true with tier 1 units, where the presence of hard counters must be limited due to limited choices in the early game (and this is why the Adept needed to be nerfed). No one wants to watch Immortals versus Thors because skill and positioning are almost not important at all, Immortals just win | ||
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LtCalley
United States244 Posts
also, hands down....it was ForGG who invented the reactor hellion cloak banshee opener tvz and used it as the standard MVP was by far the most influential...but my underlying point still supports your case that there was more than one largely influential figure for Terran in WoL | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 18 2016 15:39 LtCalley wrote: bomber was doing the scv pull against protoss before MVP. also, hands down....it was ForGG who invented the reactor hellion cloak banshee opener tvz and used it as the standard MVP was by far the most influential...but my underlying point still supports your case that there was more than one largely influential figure for Terran in WoL Hellion/banshee was an Mvp build. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On May 17 2016 20:42 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: by Rain heh | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
 It makes little sense -.- | ||
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