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Introduction
Greetings, dear TL Forums! It's THAT time once again! On the 21st, Blizzard released a Balance Test Map in which they are testing a change to the Thor's Anti-Air Attack Mode (Call to Action: April 21 Balance Testing).
In order to get a clearer picture of the repercusions of this change, I decided to make charts which would showcase the amount of shots that it would take for a Thor to kill the air units of all three races and some structures, considering these two scenarios: the current Thor Anti-Air Attack Mode (The original, with splash and bonus damage against Light units) and the new Attack Mode (Single target with bonus damage against Armored units).
On a more personal note, I am happy that I can share this information with you,I sincerely hope it helps you
draw your conclusions on wether you like it or not and,last but not least, showcase how much of an improvement
(or not) this change proves to be on paper!
New Thor's Anti-Air Damage Chart
Detailed as follows, the amount of shots that a Thor requires to kill a flying unit/structure is a calculation that takes into consideration the following factors: Health Points (HP), Shield points, Base Armor (and Upgraded Armor, when necessary), Thor's Anti-Air Damage (and Vehicle Weapon upgrades). It goes as follows:
# of shots = (HP + Shield Points) / (Damage - Base Armor)
The result of this calculation is an integer number and, in case the result is a fraction, it is always rounded up.
Just for clarification purposes, the cells filled in GREEN indicate that there is an improvement due to the change (in terms of less shots being required to kill a singular unit), whereas the cells filled in RED indicate that there is a decline in the attack's efficiency. Also, I have added notes marked by the symbol *, please make sure to read those as they showcase certain exceptions, give explanations on why it's an improvement or not, or clarify a point.
Without further ado, I am attaching the charts as follows.
- Terran Air Units
+ Show Spoiler +
- Zerg Air Units
+ Show Spoiler +
- Protoss Air Units
+ Show Spoiler +
- Important Notes
+ Show Spoiler +- Thor's new Attack Mode no longer deal SPLASH damage to air units.
- Thor's new Attack Mode no longer becomes affected by PDD.
- Thor's Old Attack Mode stats:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oDV6KYh.jpg)
- Thor's New Attack Mode stats:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f43mkot.jpg)
- One should take into account a couple of things when examinating the values given in the charts.
+ Show Spoiler +- First, most of the armored units that Thors used to be bad against, and the ones that Thors SHOULD be good against, are mostly massive armored units. Massive air units are mostly bulky and they do not clump up as often as Mutas or Phoenixes would. So the scenarios where you would have gotten extra damage from that splash are few, because when units auto attack they tend to separate each other too.
- Second, massive units usually have a big chunk of armor, which diminishes the damage of the Thor's Javelin Missiles (old attack) by a lot, where as the new one doesn't become affected as much.
- Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen.
Conclusions
- Against Light Air Units: the Thor's new Attack Mode performs WAY less efficiently than its previous counterpart. Even though, it generally takes an additional attack, in most cases, to kill Light Air Units, the fact that it does not deal splash damage to them disables the Thor as an option to deal with (mass) Mutalisks or Phoenixes. In this scenario, the unit that would fill this role would be the Liberator.
- Against Armored Air Units:, the Thor's new Attack Mode performs WAY more efficiently than its previous counterpart.One could fairly say that it deals TWICE as much damage in most cases. As a matter of fact, it now takes the Thor from 3 to 4 times less shots to kill Late-game massive/armored units such as Battlecruisers and Liberators, Broodlords and Corruptors, and finally, Carriers and Tempests.
- DISCLAIMER: Please note that this is all theory, and thus in practice there may be a lot more to consider, like how hard it is to transition into them, or their supply being so heavy, if it is supply / resource efficient to make Thors instead of, let's say, Vikings to deal with your opponent's composition.
Credits
Special thanks to Liquipedia, I took the information regarding the unit stats from it, they do a great job keeping the info up to date.
Thanks a lot for reading my post in advance, I hope you can share your thoughts as well here.
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Very nice! Thanks for posting!
One thing I noticed was that for the light air units, the damage values for the reworked Thor are 35 -> 40 -> 50 -> 55.
I'm assuming that this wasn't intentional? Also, are weapon upgrades really just a +5 damage boost? I would have thought it would have been +3 (+2 versus armored).
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10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
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I was hoping someone could do this, thanks for posting such informative post!
Although it seems Thor is in better position versus armored air with this update, I still consider the change as a nerf. In most scenarios, AoE damage is always better than single damage imo. And Terran doesn't need another single anti-armored-air since we have vikings. Although vikings don't do very well in their role, they are still better than Thors for reasons such as mobility, better sync with Terran land armies, etc.
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On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech.
Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever
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On April 27 2016 12:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech. Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever
Herm... you do realise mech isn't happening because ravagers are 3shotting tanks and liberators with the bile, right? Giving AA to mech won't change the fact that you're not able to run away from the trishot of doom. If you go mech, you'll be dead well before any broodlords get out.
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What about the attack animation? Can the projectile be intercepted by PDD, if it is not then Thor is a good choice to snipe PDD. And the range too, this is quite important in TvT
Bonus damage vs armored unit means that it require less viking and more Thor to maintain air control in TvT, if Thor have similar range to Tank (which is 13) then it is much more risky to gain vision by medivac-viking if your opponent have Thor
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On April 27 2016 11:30 Frudgey wrote:
Very nice! Thanks for posting!
One thing I noticed was that for the light air units, the damage values for the reworked Thor are 35 -> 40 -> 50 -> 55.
I'm assuming that this wasn't intentional? Also, are weapon upgrades really just a +5 damage boost? I would have thought it would have been +3 (+2 versus armored).
Thanks for pointing that out, it was a mistake by me. Indeed, the new Attack Mode Damage goes like this: 35 -> 40 -> 45 -> 50 against Light Units and 50 -> 55 -> 60 -> 65 against Armored Units (a +5 additional damage per Weapon Upgrade for both).
On April 27 2016 12:49 Yumi-Yari wrote:
What about the attack animation? Can the projectile be intercepted by PDD, if it is not then Thor is a good choice to snipe PDD. And the range too, this is quite important in TvT
Bonus damage vs armored unit means that it require less viking and more Thor to maintain air control in TvT, if Thor have similar range to Tank (which is 13) then it is much more risky to gain vision by medivac-viking if your opponent have Thor
I have tested the new Thor's Air Attack Mode against Raven's PDD and it DOES NOT become affected by it. Thors can shoot through PDD as their attack is not consider a Projectile anymore. Also, I believe Thors are much more competent against Liberators / Vikings / Medivacs and Battlecruisers this way. I will try posting a little summary of the conclusions tomorrow afternoon. Until then, have a good night!
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Does this chart take into account health regeneration for Zerg?
As far as I know, Protoss shields don't regenerate while the unit is in combat, right?
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whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful
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On April 27 2016 14:04 Loccstana wrote:
whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful
thorzain used it to trounce MC and it was promptly removed.
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On April 27 2016 12:37 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 12:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech. Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever Herm... you do realise mech isn't happening because ravagers are 3shotting tanks and liberators with the bile, right? Giving AA to mech won't change the fact that you're not able to run away from the trishot of doom. If you go mech, you'll be dead well before any broodlords get out.
as someone who has tried to make mech work at high masters level I don't think ravagers are the reason mech is not viable. Yes ravagers are strong but you can survive the roach ravager phase if you play well.
The biggest reason mecj is not viable is that broodlord viper is unbeatable unless you somehow emp every single viper before the engagement starts (which only happens if the zerg fucks up)
I don't think the thor buff will do anything btw because thors still get blocked by broodlings and can't attack the broodlords.
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There is a big difference in some cases but where it really matters, BL and Tempests, the mobility and range advantage for these flying units is still to much imo.
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On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
No David Kim probably changes his minds in 1-2 weeks, and then reconsiders it in 2-3 months.
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On April 27 2016 12:37 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 12:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech. Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever Herm... you do realise mech isn't happening because ravagers are 3shotting tanks and liberators with the bile, right? Giving AA to mech won't change the fact that you're not able to run away from the trishot of doom. If you go mech, you'll be dead well before any broodlords get out.
It is not realistic that you can snipe all tanks at once. It takes a long time and that is a big aspect of skill shots. It has a similar effect as limited unit selection. That makes mass ravager less efficient. This is even stronger for tank pick ups.
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On April 27 2016 18:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. No David Kim probably changes his minds in 1-2 weeks, and then reconsiders it in 2-3 months.
Would you like him to put every change suggested into the game? Or would you like him to test and try to understand the game better and only put changes that work?
It is unrealistic what people want. You test because you want to understand something better. If you wanted to change a unit for the sake of the change, why would you even test it?
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On April 27 2016 17:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There is a big difference in some cases but where it really matters, BL and Tempests, the mobility and range advantage for these flying units is still to much imo.
We will see that only if we play the game. Thors can be very mobile with medivacs. It is also difficult to keep the distance, because it takes a lot of attention.
I dont remember that thors could not reach my bls (before the +0.5 range buff which is almost nothing). I think what happens is that bls fly forward when they retarget or that the edges of the concave can get closer. No idea why, but in my 18 bls vs 10 thors games, thors usually won.
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On April 27 2016 18:40 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 17:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There is a big difference in some cases but where it really matters, BL and Tempests, the mobility and range advantage for these flying units is still to much imo. We will see that only if we play the game. Thors can be very mobile with medivacs. It is also difficult to keep the distance, because it takes a lot of attention. I dont remember that thors could not reach my bls (before the +0.5 range buff which is almost nothing). I think what happens is that bls fly forward when they retarget or that the edges of the concave can get closer. No idea why, but in my 18 bls vs 10 thors games, thors usually won.
You might be right about BLs, but with mass Tempests i see no problem kiting Thors (and everything else) to oblivion. Maybe the solution might be reduced range for the Tempest rather then buffed range for Thors, i don't know.
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I don't often use Tanks in ZvT, but I don't understand how Ravagers would ever get close enough to drop biles on tanks, if tanks have vision?
Tanks in general would be nicer if they could get a slight buff in their attack. They're supposed to mess up anything which is dumb enough to get too close; which is so far only the case in TvT mostly, since Zerg and Protoss units are OK tanking the damage generally speaking (especially adepts and immortals).
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On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
That's just not accurate at all.
When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors.
You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game.
To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors?
Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army.
If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9BhgFpT.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YSG9gZ1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HjyYcxM.jpg)
