EPTThor's Anti-Air Damage Chart - Page 2
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On April 27 2016 14:04 Loccstana wrote: whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful Why? The thor regular attack had higher dps. | ||
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dust7
199 Posts
On April 27 2016 21:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Why did blizzard removed the 250mm strike canon upgrade? (wasnt playing WOL back in the days) Because Thorzain won a finals with it. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote: That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game. 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect. | ||
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Yumi-Yari
4 Posts
On April 27 2016 22:03 JackONeill wrote: 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect. The problem when you try to use thor as anti-air against zerg as you said is that whether it is thor or viking the answer from the zerg is always viper (abduct for thors and bombs for viking). I think a better option is to change the ground attack so that thor can be a good option against ultra, thor is supposed to be slow but hard-hitting unit and i wish to see them fulfill that role I'm curious to see how this change work in TvP, can a thor-hellion timing be viable? when voidray cannot deal with thor the only option for the protoss is stalker and immortal which have to stay home or a tons of hellion will surround and kill them if they move out. Furthermore thor is pretty damm good against pylon and mothership core | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 27 2016 22:03 JackONeill wrote: 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect. 1) you don't understand what I mean. P and Z are not about "I want 2 different playstyle with separate units and I don't want them to mix up" why Terrans should be different? Mixiing every kind of units during a long macro game is probably the future of terrans. Morevover : Banshee and ravens appear in almost every TvT BC always been useless, it's just here for the "image" and because fans cried when Blizzard wanted to remove it. Cyclone is still a good early game defense in both TvT and TvP Hellions and Hellbats : watch Gumiho's game in yesterday's proleague. Thor : we see none, that's why new solutions are tested to bring it back in game, did you serioulsy miss this point? 2) I don't think you're correct on this point either. - vipers were not often used in ZvT because the meta was about to stay in tier 2. Whenever tier 3 was hit, Terran would make viking to try and snipe vipers. That doens't work so well in LotV (parasitic bomb) that's why vipers are back in trend. - you have to realize that thor's never been the counter to muta in LotV. The counter to muta are the liberators, the widow mines and the stimmed 3/3 marines. Nobody makes Thors vs muta in LotV. This balance test is not there to change this. - You seem to have an issue with vipers abducting thors, but that's a totally legit strategy. What would yo want? Thors being immune? Again, the point of this thor change is to deal with corruptors while liberators deal with ultralisks. If the Zerg mixes vipers in, then it's your move to try and get the proper counter to this particular unit. So in conclusion and back to what you originally stated, yes, if this damage change is efficient enough, Thors will be in the game again, typically in TvZ as a Bio/mine(or tanks?)/liberator compliment to deal with the infamous lingbane ultra corruptors.... | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
On April 27 2016 21:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Why did blizzard removed the 250mm strike canon upgrade? (wasnt playing WOL back in the days) Personally I think that was one of the best moves Blizz did and I'll tell you why. Strike Canon was OP when was a cooldown, and was a weakness when became energy usage (and could be feedbacked). So the removal was the correct middle ground. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On April 27 2016 23:01 Gwavajuice wrote: 1) you don't understand what I mean. P and Z are not about "I want 2 different playstyle with separate units and I don't want them to mix up" why Terrans should be different? Mixiing every kind of units during a long macro game is probably the future of terrans. Morevover : Banshee and ravens appear in almost every TvT BC always been useless, it's just here for the "image" and because fans cried when Blizzard wanted to remove it. Cyclone is still a good early game defense in both TvT and TvP Hellions and Hellbats : watch Gumiho's game in yesterday's proleague. Thor : we see none, that's why new solutions are tested to bring it back in game, did you serioulsy miss this point? Making 1 or 2 MAYBE in the entire game is not so different because at the end you just end up making the same 4 units with your bio anyway. Also P and Z can do that, in pro games both roach/ravager and ling/bane/muta are viable and have different transitions (infestors, brood lords, ultras, vipers dependeing) for example. With terran you get bio and medivacs and then add libs and ghost, everygame. | ||
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PowerOfOne
Peru78 Posts
On April 27 2016 14:03 BoX wrote: Does this chart take into account health regeneration for Zerg? As far as I know, Protoss shields don't regenerate while the unit is in combat, right? Nope, this chart does not take HP regen into account, mainly because there won't any sustantial changes in the result, unless it's a very clutch calculation in which 1-2 HP can make the difference, however, there should already be annotations in those due to the Armor being a much more influential factor. On April 27 2016 23:23 Lexender wrote: Making 1 or 2 MAYBE in the entire game is not so different because at the end you just end up making the same 4 units with your bio anyway. Also P and Z can do that, in pro games both roach/ravager and ling/bane/muta are viable and have different transitions (infestors, brood lords, ultras, vipers dependeing) for example. With terran you get bio and medivacs and then add libs and ghost, everygame. I would definitely love to see more Thors here and there, wether it is as a complement in a bio composition to deal with Vipers, Broodlords, Corruptors in TvZ or in a Mech composition (probably a TvP Hellbat Thor all-in, I imagine). Regarding the performance of Vikings vs Thors in Lategame TvZ against Vipers, the fact that you can pull a huge mass of steel over a thick flying stingray looks silly to me xD and it plays so much in favour of the zerg. Jokes aside, losing 300 minerals and 200 gas over an unit's ability you cannot do much counterplay against is very cost-inefficient for the Terran, however, I do believe that if you get 3-4 Thors you may be able to snipe the Vipers before they pull or if you have a couple of Medivacs it may be possible to save the Thors with perfect timing by lifting them up and pulling them back, but that's gotta be a matter of further testing! | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
How large is the splash radius, and is it flat damage over the area? All in all I feel that a single target attack needs to be a lot more powerful if it is expected to be an improvement over the area of effect. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Does the damage chart take into account armour and shield upgrades for the units? For instance if we look at Thors with +3 attack upgrades is that versus a Carrier with +3 armour and +3 shields upgrades? Or is it versus units that do not have any upgrades? | ||
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PowerOfOne
Peru78 Posts
On April 28 2016 15:38 Cascade wrote: Answering to your questions, the splash radius is small enough that if you Magic Box Mutas over them, they will rarely do any splash damage, or if none at all. I believe the splash damage works like the Siege Tanks', the further the unit is from the center of the splash radius, the less damage they take.do I read this correctly, that as long as the splash hits two units, the old and new are comparable against armoured units, and if the splash hits three units, the old version is just plain better? How large is the splash radius, and is it flat damage over the area? All in all I feel that a single target attack needs to be a lot more powerful if it is expected to be an improvement over the area of effect. However, having said that, you should take into account a couple of things when examinating the values given in the charts.
On April 28 2016 16:22 MockHamill wrote: Hey, MockHamill! Do you refer to this scenario in regards to ALL the races? If you do, yes, I have taken into account the same weapon upgrade of the Thor vs. the same armor upgrade of the unit being attacked, such scenarios where the Armor Upgrade makes a difference in the number of attacks required to kill the unit are marked by the [*] symbol. However, when it comes to Protoss, I have taken into consideration only one armor upgrade, Ship Plating.PowerOfOne, Does the damage chart take into account armour and shield upgrades for the units? For instance if we look at Thors with +3 attack upgrades is that versus a Carrier with +3 armour and +3 shields upgrades? Or is it versus units that do not have any upgrades? Why, even though most protosses who go Air Toss tend to choose the Shield Armor Upgrade over the Ship Plating? Because, most Protoss Air Units have more HP than Shield, and thus reducing the attack damage in more instances than the shield would. It is the worst case scenario here. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen. This actually makes a huge difference, way more than most people realize | ||
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Yumi-Yari
4 Posts
People might not care about this but i'll ask, does thor uses anti-air against colossus This change i think will affect TvT the most as 3 thors will wreck any amount of viking and raven, and gaining air control is not about simply having more viking-raven Another reason i think about protoss choose armor rather than shield is that in the late game the terran will have a lot of ghost and your army will be EMP anyway | ||
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PowerOfOne
Peru78 Posts
On April 29 2016 11:40 Cyro wrote: This actually makes a huge difference, way more than most people realize Indeed! This is a huge change, to be honest. On April 29 2016 13:01 Yumi-Yari wrote: PowerOfOne People might not care about this but i'll ask, does thor uses anti-air against colossus This change i think will affect TvT the most as 3 thors will wreck any amount of viking and raven, and gaining air control is not about simply having more viking-raven Another reason i think about protoss choose armor rather than shield is that in the late game the terran will have a lot of ghost and your army will be EMP anyway Uhm, if I recall well, Thors have always used their Ground Attack (Thor's Hammer) against Colossus, it would be a great idea if they could use their New Anti-Air Attack if Colossus is out of range of the Ground Attack (Anti-air has more range the anti-ground attack). In that case, they would outrange colossi, lol. Good night! | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Do the Thors still try to kill interceptors rather than the Carriers? Because if they do so it would be a huge nerf due to the amount of overkill trying to kill a single interceptor. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On April 29 2016 17:12 MockHamill wrote: PowerOfOne, Do the Thors still try to kill interceptors rather than the Carriers? Because if they do so it would be a huge nerf due to the amount of overkill trying to kill a single interceptor. The new Thor anti-air uses the animation for the flak cannon mode from HotS, so it doesn't seem to overkill from what I've seen. | ||
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PowerOfOne
Peru78 Posts
On April 29 2016 17:12 MockHamill wrote: PowerOfOne, Do the Thors still try to kill interceptors rather than the Carriers? Because if they do so it would be a huge nerf due to the amount of overkill trying to kill a single interceptor. Hey, Mockhamill! I am not sure about that, the AI tends to attack the closest hostile unit, being that the interceptor rather than the carrier. However, is it really a problem that the Thor could automatically target the Interceptors over the Carrier? I mean, one can always target fire the Carriers with the Thors, and that would be a very positive micro-requirement for the new Thor Attack Mode, even tho Thors have always been slow walkers. On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote: That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game. I didn't realize the importance of what you just said until I read it twice, if Thor's become a reliable backing unit for the Liberator, and viceversa, adding up supply depots/turrets/command centers/planetaries, it could definitely be as you say! Add some hellbats to the composition to deal with 3/3 cracklings, too! >>>Upcoming Balance Update - Tuesday, May 3rd<<< The change made its way through! We will be able to test this in practice in all regions now! Have a good day~~ (May 4th) EDIT: The patch is cancelled and won´t go live for now! Community Feedback Update - May 3 | ||
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