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Introduction
Greetings, dear TL Forums! It's THAT time once again! On the 21st, Blizzard released a Balance Test Map in which they are testing a change to the Thor's Anti-Air Attack Mode (Call to Action: April 21 Balance Testing).
In order to get a clearer picture of the repercusions of this change, I decided to make charts which would showcase the amount of shots that it would take for a Thor to kill the air units of all three races and some structures, considering these two scenarios: the current Thor Anti-Air Attack Mode (The original, with splash and bonus damage against Light units) and the new Attack Mode (Single target with bonus damage against Armored units).
On a more personal note, I am happy that I can share this information with you,I sincerely hope it helps you
draw your conclusions on wether you like it or not and,last but not least, showcase how much of an improvement
(or not) this change proves to be on paper!
New Thor's Anti-Air Damage Chart
Detailed as follows, the amount of shots that a Thor requires to kill a flying unit/structure is a calculation that takes into consideration the following factors: Health Points (HP), Shield points, Base Armor (and Upgraded Armor, when necessary), Thor's Anti-Air Damage (and Vehicle Weapon upgrades). It goes as follows:
# of shots = (HP + Shield Points) / (Damage - Base Armor)
The result of this calculation is an integer number and, in case the result is a fraction, it is always rounded up.
Just for clarification purposes, the cells filled in GREEN indicate that there is an improvement due to the change (in terms of less shots being required to kill a singular unit), whereas the cells filled in RED indicate that there is a decline in the attack's efficiency. Also, I have added notes marked by the symbol *, please make sure to read those as they showcase certain exceptions, give explanations on why it's an improvement or not, or clarify a point.
Without further ado, I am attaching the charts as follows.
- Terran Air Units
+ Show Spoiler +
- Zerg Air Units
+ Show Spoiler +
- Protoss Air Units
+ Show Spoiler +
- Important Notes
+ Show Spoiler +- Thor's new Attack Mode no longer deal SPLASH damage to air units.
- Thor's new Attack Mode no longer becomes affected by PDD.
- Thor's Old Attack Mode stats:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oDV6KYh.jpg)
- Thor's New Attack Mode stats:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f43mkot.jpg)
- One should take into account a couple of things when examinating the values given in the charts.
+ Show Spoiler +- First, most of the armored units that Thors used to be bad against, and the ones that Thors SHOULD be good against, are mostly massive armored units. Massive air units are mostly bulky and they do not clump up as often as Mutas or Phoenixes would. So the scenarios where you would have gotten extra damage from that splash are few, because when units auto attack they tend to separate each other too.
- Second, massive units usually have a big chunk of armor, which diminishes the damage of the Thor's Javelin Missiles (old attack) by a lot, where as the new one doesn't become affected as much.
- Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen.
Conclusions
- Against Light Air Units: the Thor's new Attack Mode performs WAY less efficiently than its previous counterpart. Even though, it generally takes an additional attack, in most cases, to kill Light Air Units, the fact that it does not deal splash damage to them disables the Thor as an option to deal with (mass) Mutalisks or Phoenixes. In this scenario, the unit that would fill this role would be the Liberator.
- Against Armored Air Units:, the Thor's new Attack Mode performs WAY more efficiently than its previous counterpart.One could fairly say that it deals TWICE as much damage in most cases. As a matter of fact, it now takes the Thor from 3 to 4 times less shots to kill Late-game massive/armored units such as Battlecruisers and Liberators, Broodlords and Corruptors, and finally, Carriers and Tempests.
- DISCLAIMER: Please note that this is all theory, and thus in practice there may be a lot more to consider, like how hard it is to transition into them, or their supply being so heavy, if it is supply / resource efficient to make Thors instead of, let's say, Vikings to deal with your opponent's composition.
Credits
Special thanks to Liquipedia, I took the information regarding the unit stats from it, they do a great job keeping the info up to date.
Thanks a lot for reading my post in advance, I hope you can share your thoughts as well here.
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Very nice! Thanks for posting!
One thing I noticed was that for the light air units, the damage values for the reworked Thor are 35 -> 40 -> 50 -> 55.
I'm assuming that this wasn't intentional? Also, are weapon upgrades really just a +5 damage boost? I would have thought it would have been +3 (+2 versus armored).
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10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
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I was hoping someone could do this, thanks for posting such informative post!
Although it seems Thor is in better position versus armored air with this update, I still consider the change as a nerf. In most scenarios, AoE damage is always better than single damage imo. And Terran doesn't need another single anti-armored-air since we have vikings. Although vikings don't do very well in their role, they are still better than Thors for reasons such as mobility, better sync with Terran land armies, etc.
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On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech.
Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever
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On April 27 2016 12:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech. Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever
Herm... you do realise mech isn't happening because ravagers are 3shotting tanks and liberators with the bile, right? Giving AA to mech won't change the fact that you're not able to run away from the trishot of doom. If you go mech, you'll be dead well before any broodlords get out.
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What about the attack animation? Can the projectile be intercepted by PDD, if it is not then Thor is a good choice to snipe PDD. And the range too, this is quite important in TvT
Bonus damage vs armored unit means that it require less viking and more Thor to maintain air control in TvT, if Thor have similar range to Tank (which is 13) then it is much more risky to gain vision by medivac-viking if your opponent have Thor
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On April 27 2016 11:30 Frudgey wrote:
Very nice! Thanks for posting!
One thing I noticed was that for the light air units, the damage values for the reworked Thor are 35 -> 40 -> 50 -> 55.
I'm assuming that this wasn't intentional? Also, are weapon upgrades really just a +5 damage boost? I would have thought it would have been +3 (+2 versus armored).
Thanks for pointing that out, it was a mistake by me. Indeed, the new Attack Mode Damage goes like this: 35 -> 40 -> 45 -> 50 against Light Units and 50 -> 55 -> 60 -> 65 against Armored Units (a +5 additional damage per Weapon Upgrade for both).
On April 27 2016 12:49 Yumi-Yari wrote:
What about the attack animation? Can the projectile be intercepted by PDD, if it is not then Thor is a good choice to snipe PDD. And the range too, this is quite important in TvT
Bonus damage vs armored unit means that it require less viking and more Thor to maintain air control in TvT, if Thor have similar range to Tank (which is 13) then it is much more risky to gain vision by medivac-viking if your opponent have Thor
I have tested the new Thor's Air Attack Mode against Raven's PDD and it DOES NOT become affected by it. Thors can shoot through PDD as their attack is not consider a Projectile anymore. Also, I believe Thors are much more competent against Liberators / Vikings / Medivacs and Battlecruisers this way. I will try posting a little summary of the conclusions tomorrow afternoon. Until then, have a good night!
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Does this chart take into account health regeneration for Zerg?
As far as I know, Protoss shields don't regenerate while the unit is in combat, right?
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whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful
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On April 27 2016 14:04 Loccstana wrote:
whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful
thorzain used it to trounce MC and it was promptly removed.
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On April 27 2016 12:37 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 12:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech. Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever Herm... you do realise mech isn't happening because ravagers are 3shotting tanks and liberators with the bile, right? Giving AA to mech won't change the fact that you're not able to run away from the trishot of doom. If you go mech, you'll be dead well before any broodlords get out.
as someone who has tried to make mech work at high masters level I don't think ravagers are the reason mech is not viable. Yes ravagers are strong but you can survive the roach ravager phase if you play well.
The biggest reason mecj is not viable is that broodlord viper is unbeatable unless you somehow emp every single viper before the engagement starts (which only happens if the zerg fucks up)
I don't think the thor buff will do anything btw because thors still get blocked by broodlings and can't attack the broodlords.
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There is a big difference in some cases but where it really matters, BL and Tempests, the mobility and range advantage for these flying units is still to much imo.
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On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
No David Kim probably changes his minds in 1-2 weeks, and then reconsiders it in 2-3 months.
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On April 27 2016 12:37 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 12:26 chipmonklord17 wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. I think you're underestimating the effect of needing half the thors you would currently to do the same damage (to corruptors/BL/Vipers) and what that will do to mech. Either way I think the liberator outclasses the thor in most regards but this is as big a step forward for mech as ever Herm... you do realise mech isn't happening because ravagers are 3shotting tanks and liberators with the bile, right? Giving AA to mech won't change the fact that you're not able to run away from the trishot of doom. If you go mech, you'll be dead well before any broodlords get out.
It is not realistic that you can snipe all tanks at once. It takes a long time and that is a big aspect of skill shots. It has a similar effect as limited unit selection. That makes mass ravager less efficient. This is even stronger for tank pick ups.
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On April 27 2016 18:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. No David Kim probably changes his minds in 1-2 weeks, and then reconsiders it in 2-3 months.
Would you like him to put every change suggested into the game? Or would you like him to test and try to understand the game better and only put changes that work?
It is unrealistic what people want. You test because you want to understand something better. If you wanted to change a unit for the sake of the change, why would you even test it?
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On April 27 2016 17:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There is a big difference in some cases but where it really matters, BL and Tempests, the mobility and range advantage for these flying units is still to much imo.
We will see that only if we play the game. Thors can be very mobile with medivacs. It is also difficult to keep the distance, because it takes a lot of attention.
I dont remember that thors could not reach my bls (before the +0.5 range buff which is almost nothing). I think what happens is that bls fly forward when they retarget or that the edges of the concave can get closer. No idea why, but in my 18 bls vs 10 thors games, thors usually won.
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On April 27 2016 18:40 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 17:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There is a big difference in some cases but where it really matters, BL and Tempests, the mobility and range advantage for these flying units is still to much imo. We will see that only if we play the game. Thors can be very mobile with medivacs. It is also difficult to keep the distance, because it takes a lot of attention. I dont remember that thors could not reach my bls (before the +0.5 range buff which is almost nothing). I think what happens is that bls fly forward when they retarget or that the edges of the concave can get closer. No idea why, but in my 18 bls vs 10 thors games, thors usually won.
You might be right about BLs, but with mass Tempests i see no problem kiting Thors (and everything else) to oblivion. Maybe the solution might be reduced range for the Tempest rather then buffed range for Thors, i don't know.
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I don't often use Tanks in ZvT, but I don't understand how Ravagers would ever get close enough to drop biles on tanks, if tanks have vision?
Tanks in general would be nicer if they could get a slight buff in their attack. They're supposed to mess up anything which is dumb enough to get too close; which is so far only the case in TvT mostly, since Zerg and Protoss units are OK tanking the damage generally speaking (especially adepts and immortals).
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On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull.
That's just not accurate at all.
When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors.
You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game.
To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors?
Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army.
If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game.
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Why did blizzard removed the 250mm strike canon upgrade? (wasnt playing WOL back in the days)
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On April 27 2016 14:04 Loccstana wrote:
whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful
Why? The thor regular attack had higher dps.
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On April 27 2016 21:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Why did blizzard removed the 250mm strike canon upgrade? (wasnt playing WOL back in the days)
Because Thorzain won a finals with it.
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On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game.
1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ?
2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers.
So really, vikings will be better in every aspect.
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On April 27 2016 22:03 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game. 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect.
The problem when you try to use thor as anti-air against zerg as you said is that whether it is thor or viking the answer from the zerg is always viper (abduct for thors and bombs for viking). I think a better option is to change the ground attack so that thor can be a good option against ultra, thor is supposed to be slow but hard-hitting unit and i wish to see them fulfill that role
I'm curious to see how this change work in TvP, can a thor-hellion timing be viable? when voidray cannot deal with thor the only option for the protoss is stalker and immortal which have to stay home or a tons of hellion will surround and kill them if they move out. Furthermore thor is pretty damm good against pylon and mothership core
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On April 27 2016 22:03 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game. 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect.
1) you don't understand what I mean. P and Z are not about "I want 2 different playstyle with separate units and I don't want them to mix up" why Terrans should be different? Mixiing every kind of units during a long macro game is probably the future of terrans.
Morevover :
Banshee and ravens appear in almost every TvT
BC always been useless, it's just here for the "image" and because fans cried when Blizzard wanted to remove it.
Cyclone is still a good early game defense in both TvT and TvP
Hellions and Hellbats : watch Gumiho's game in yesterday's proleague.
Thor : we see none, that's why new solutions are tested to bring it back in game, did you serioulsy miss this point?
2) I don't think you're correct on this point either.
- vipers were not often used in ZvT because the meta was about to stay in tier 2. Whenever tier 3 was hit, Terran would make viking to try and snipe vipers. That doens't work so well in LotV (parasitic bomb) that's why vipers are back in trend.
- you have to realize that thor's never been the counter to muta in LotV. The counter to muta are the liberators, the widow mines and the stimmed 3/3 marines. Nobody makes Thors vs muta in LotV. This balance test is not there to change this.
- You seem to have an issue with vipers abducting thors, but that's a totally legit strategy. What would yo want? Thors being immune? Again, the point of this thor change is to deal with corruptors while liberators deal with ultralisks. If the Zerg mixes vipers in, then it's your move to try and get the proper counter to this particular unit.
So in conclusion and back to what you originally stated, yes, if this damage change is efficient enough, Thors will be in the game again, typically in TvZ as a Bio/mine(or tanks?)/liberator compliment to deal with the infamous lingbane ultra corruptors....
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On April 27 2016 21:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Why did blizzard removed the 250mm strike canon upgrade? (wasnt playing WOL back in the days)
Personally I think that was one of the best moves Blizz did and I'll tell you why. Strike Canon was OP when was a cooldown, and was a weakness when became energy usage (and could be feedbacked). So the removal was the correct middle ground.
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On April 27 2016 23:01 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 22:03 JackONeill wrote:On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game. 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect. 1) you don't understand what I mean. P and Z are not about "I want 2 different playstyle with separate units and I don't want them to mix up" why Terrans should be different? Mixiing every kind of units during a long macro game is probably the future of terrans. Morevover : Banshee and ravens appear in almost every TvT BC always been useless, it's just here for the "image" and because fans cried when Blizzard wanted to remove it. Cyclone is still a good early game defense in both TvT and TvP Hellions and Hellbats : watch Gumiho's game in yesterday's proleague. Thor : we see none, that's why new solutions are tested to bring it back in game, did you serioulsy miss this point?
Making 1 or 2 MAYBE in the entire game is not so different because at the end you just end up making the same 4 units with your bio anyway.
Also P and Z can do that, in pro games both roach/ravager and ling/bane/muta are viable and have different transitions (infestors, brood lords, ultras, vipers dependeing) for example. With terran you get bio and medivacs and then add libs and ghost, everygame.
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Greetings, everyone! I have completed the thread with Conclusions and Important Notes to consider, as well as given it a decent formatting (and learned a lot of coding on the way through, lol).
On April 27 2016 14:03 BoX wrote:
Does this chart take into account health regeneration for Zerg?
As far as I know, Protoss shields don't regenerate while the unit is in combat, right?
Nope, this chart does not take HP regen into account, mainly because there won't any sustantial changes in the result, unless it's a very clutch calculation in which 1-2 HP can make the difference, however, there should already be annotations in those due to the Armor being a much more influential factor.
On April 27 2016 23:23 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 23:01 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 27 2016 22:03 JackONeill wrote:On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game. 1) "bio vs mech is totally obsolete" because there is only one way to play every matchup as terran. It's the terrible state terran is in, which is not to be taken as a grounbreaking novelty, but as a huge strategic regression. Every single facto/sp unit getting pigeonholed into bio support makes it so that maybe only 4 will be used. Who has seen a banshee, a raven, a BC, a cyclone, a thor, a hellion or hellbat (if it's not for a allin) on streams lately ? 2) thors worked back in HOTS because against bio, the zerg had no real interest to go vipers, which are insanely strong now. And thors are just the juiciest target for abducts. So the new thor will not only be very mediocre against mutas, making its mid game use very unreliable, but it'll also be the first target of abducts since zergs have much more reasons to go vipers. So really, vikings will be better in every aspect. 1) you don't understand what I mean. P and Z are not about "I want 2 different playstyle with separate units and I don't want them to mix up" why Terrans should be different? Mixiing every kind of units during a long macro game is probably the future of terrans. Morevover : Banshee and ravens appear in almost every TvT BC always been useless, it's just here for the "image" and because fans cried when Blizzard wanted to remove it. Cyclone is still a good early game defense in both TvT and TvP Hellions and Hellbats : watch Gumiho's game in yesterday's proleague. Thor : we see none, that's why new solutions are tested to bring it back in game, did you serioulsy miss this point? Making 1 or 2 MAYBE in the entire game is not so different because at the end you just end up making the same 4 units with your bio anyway. Also P and Z can do that, in pro games both roach/ravager and ling/bane/muta are viable and have different transitions (infestors, brood lords, ultras, vipers dependeing) for example. With terran you get bio and medivacs and then add libs and ghost, everygame.
I would definitely love to see more Thors here and there, wether it is as a complement in a bio composition to deal with Vipers, Broodlords, Corruptors in TvZ or in a Mech composition (probably a TvP Hellbat Thor all-in, I imagine). Regarding the performance of Vikings vs Thors in Lategame TvZ against Vipers, the fact that you can pull a huge mass of steel over a thick flying stingray looks silly to me xD and it plays so much in favour of the zerg. Jokes aside, losing 300 minerals and 200 gas over an unit's ability you cannot do much counterplay against is very cost-inefficient for the Terran, however, I do believe that if you get 3-4 Thors you may be able to snipe the Vipers before they pull or if you have a couple of Medivacs it may be possible to save the Thors with perfect timing by lifting them up and pulling them back, but that's gotta be a matter of further testing!
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3 Thors with +1 will one shot a viper at range 10 (abduct is range 9), and the Thor AA attack is instant, so, in theory, Thors should be able to zone out single vipers. It's more problematic if the zerg player commits multiple vipers for pulls.
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They need to increase the movement speed and armor of the Thor as well. The real reason why people dont build Thors because tier 1 units counter it hard and it just too slow.
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do I read this correctly, that as long as the splash hits two units, the old and new are comparable against armoured units, and if the splash hits three units, the old version is just plain better?
How large is the splash radius, and is it flat damage over the area?
All in all I feel that a single target attack needs to be a lot more powerful if it is expected to be an improvement over the area of effect.
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PowerOfOne,
Does the damage chart take into account armour and shield upgrades for the units? For instance if we look at Thors with +3 attack upgrades is that versus a Carrier with +3 armour and +3 shields upgrades? Or is it versus units that do not have any upgrades?
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On April 28 2016 15:38 Cascade wrote:
do I read this correctly, that as long as the splash hits two units, the old and new are comparable against armoured units, and if the splash hits three units, the old version is just plain better?
How large is the splash radius, and is it flat damage over the area?
All in all I feel that a single target attack needs to be a lot more powerful if it is expected to be an improvement over the area of effect. Answering to your questions, the splash radius is small enough that if you Magic Box Mutas over them, they will rarely do any splash damage, or if none at all. I believe the splash damage works like the Siege Tanks', the further the unit is from the center of the splash radius, the less damage they take.
However, having said that, you should take into account a couple of things when examinating the values given in the charts.
- First, most of the armored units that Thors used to be bad against, and the ones that Thors SHOULD be good against, are mostly massive armored units. Massive air units are mostly bulky and they do not clump up as often as Mutas or Phoenixes would. So the scenarios where you would have gotten extra damage from that splash are few, because when units auto attack they tend to separate each other too.
- Second, massive units usually have a big chunk of armor, which diminishes the damage of the Thor's Javelin Missiles (old attack) by a lot, where as the new one doesn't become affected as much.
- Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen.
On April 28 2016 16:22 MockHamill wrote:
PowerOfOne,
Does the damage chart take into account armour and shield upgrades for the units? For instance if we look at Thors with +3 attack upgrades is that versus a Carrier with +3 armour and +3 shields upgrades? Or is it versus units that do not have any upgrades? Hey, MockHamill! Do you refer to this scenario in regards to ALL the races? If you do, yes, I have taken into account the same weapon upgrade of the Thor vs. the same armor upgrade of the unit being attacked, such scenarios where the Armor Upgrade makes a difference in the number of attacks required to kill the unit are marked by the [*] symbol. However, when it comes to Protoss, I have taken into consideration only one armor upgrade, Ship Plating.
Why, even though most protosses who go Air Toss tend to choose the Shield Armor Upgrade over the Ship Plating? Because, most Protoss Air Units have more HP than Shield, and thus reducing the attack damage in more instances than the shield would. It is the worst case scenario here.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen.
This actually makes a huge difference, way more than most people realize
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PowerOfOne
People might not care about this but i'll ask, does thor uses anti-air against colossus
This change i think will affect TvT the most as 3 thors will wreck any amount of viking and raven, and gaining air control is not about simply having more viking-raven
Another reason i think about protoss choose armor rather than shield is that in the late game the terran will have a lot of ghost and your army will be EMP anyway
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On April 29 2016 11:40 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen. This actually makes a huge difference, way more than most people realize
Indeed! This is a huge change, to be honest.
On April 29 2016 13:01 Yumi-Yari wrote:
PowerOfOne
People might not care about this but i'll ask, does thor uses anti-air against colossus
This change i think will affect TvT the most as 3 thors will wreck any amount of viking and raven, and gaining air control is not about simply having more viking-raven
Another reason i think about protoss choose armor rather than shield is that in the late game the terran will have a lot of ghost and your army will be EMP anyway
Uhm, if I recall well, Thors have always used their Ground Attack (Thor's Hammer) against Colossus, it would be a great idea if they could use their New Anti-Air Attack if Colossus is out of range of the Ground Attack (Anti-air has more range the anti-ground attack). In that case, they would outrange colossi, lol.
Good night!
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PowerOfOne,
Do the Thors still try to kill interceptors rather than the Carriers? Because if they do so it would be a huge nerf due to the amount of overkill trying to kill a single interceptor.
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On April 29 2016 17:12 MockHamill wrote:
PowerOfOne,
Do the Thors still try to kill interceptors rather than the Carriers? Because if they do so it would be a huge nerf due to the amount of overkill trying to kill a single interceptor.
The new Thor anti-air uses the animation for the flak cannon mode from HotS, so it doesn't seem to overkill from what I've seen.
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On April 29 2016 17:12 MockHamill wrote:
PowerOfOne,
Do the Thors still try to kill interceptors rather than the Carriers? Because if they do so it would be a huge nerf due to the amount of overkill trying to kill a single interceptor.
Hey, Mockhamill! I am not sure about that, the AI tends to attack the closest hostile unit, being that the interceptor rather than the carrier. However, is it really a problem that the Thor could automatically target the Interceptors over the Carrier? I mean, one can always target fire the Carriers with the Thors, and that would be a very positive micro-requirement for the new Thor Attack Mode, even tho Thors have always been slow walkers.
On April 27 2016 20:31 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 11:52 JackONeill wrote:
10/10 for the effort. However, since the change won't probably make it (or in 6 months), and that it won't change anything to any terran play (since mech is crap and that the viking will always synergise better with bio), I don't think it'll be that usefull. That's just not accurate at all. When Mass muta clouds was an issue in HotS TvZ, Thor got buffed (the AI change that made him target sky instead of grount). Result : Terrans put 2-3 Thors in their bio comp when facing mass muta. It was still bio, but with thors. You gotta stop thinking about bio vs mech, it's totally obsolete in the state of the game. To me the question is about : what you do in TvZ when your opponent has fully upgraded ling banes, ultralisk and corruptors? Liberators can't deal with ultra and corruptors at the same time, and 8-10 corruptors will kill sieged liberators in no time. Currently, it's very hard to find a good way to engage this army. If Thors can 4 shot corruptors, then you can zone the corruptors out and protect the liberators. Suddenly, you have a more stable way to deal with Zerg's ultra late game.
I didn't realize the importance of what you just said until I read it twice, if Thor's become a reliable backing unit for the Liberator, and viceversa, adding up supply depots/turrets/command centers/planetaries, it could definitely be as you say! Add some hellbats to the composition to deal with 3/3 cracklings, too!
(May 4th) EDIT: The patch is cancelled and won´t go live for now!
Community Feedback Update - May 3
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United States572 Posts
Yes, Thors prioritize interceptors over the carriers if the balance test mod is how it will be implemented on live. It's expected behavior, but I don't know how you can try to construe that happening into a good thing though, that's silly.
While the numbers are good to know, using this to judge the air attack's effectiveness doesn't work. You have to consider splash effects and what removing that does to the effective dps of the thor in multiple unit situations rather than 1v1. Once you get to larger numbers of corruptors, the old attack will easily outscale it in situations where the zerg grabs their corruptors and tries to snipe liberators.
On April 27 2016 21:37 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 14:04 Loccstana wrote:
whatever happened to the 255mm cannon ability of the thor? They need to give the thor that ability back if they want to be useful Why? The thor regular attack had higher dps.
You used it for the stun.
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OMG. When I looked up those replies, they never take consideration of the situation of units combination and the fight scene in the game.
In the mid-game, a corruptor takes only 2 supply while thor takes 6 supply. And zerg normally makes a brunch of them. How long would a thor take to kill a corruptor with the attack speed of 2.14? Ridiculous!
With a brunch of corruptor, vikings need to be produced because libs nerfed to 4 damage x2 which basically useless against corruptor.
In the late-game, i noticed you consider that massive units not clumbed up. But in the real fight, brood lord or tempest just zoned your thor. With a lot of zerg units or protoss units, your thor is not going to do damage to those air units. Even do damage, thor is not that useful as before which can fight muta or phoenix. Now, libs can be an answer now. Overall, thor is not a practical unit.
Let's talk back about ZvT, late game, zerg just make ultralisk and force terran to go mass libs to counter. And terran can still win against zerg because libs can kill corruptor. But now, corruptor counter libs and force to make vikings which make terran has no answer to duel with ultralisk. I don't see a chance that a terran can build ghost as well as air army together. Zerg late game unit combination will have few infestors ultralisk and so many corruptor, and those infestors will fungal those ghost actually and ghost is so clumped up. This lend to making ghost to counter ultralisk is not a really good idea.
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i mean we all know they nerfed it to keep liberators as the preferred unit. why the need for all this math?
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On April 29 2016 11:40 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Third, the fact that the new anti-air Attack Mode is not a projectile anymore, means Thor's AI will fire more efficiently as well, where less situations of overkill are going to happen. This actually makes a huge difference, way more than most people realize
No protejectile means no more overkill and highly efficient, instant damage.
It's like marines are now riding the thor now
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On May 04 2016 06:47 monkeymarco001 wrote:
OMG. When I looked up those replies, they never take consideration of the situation of units combination and the fight scene in the game. Whose replies do you refer to? Mine, somebody else's? Regarding the unit composition and in-game fight scenes, this is not an in-game combat simulator, it's a 1v1 chart that showcase and compares the performance of the new and old attack mode.
On May 04 2016 06:47 monkeymarco001 wrote:
In the mid-game, a corruptor takes only 2 supply while thor takes 6 supply. And zerg normally makes a brunch of them. How long would a thor take to kill a corruptor with the attack speed of 2.14? Ridiculous!
With a brunch of corruptor, vikings need to be produced because libs nerfed to 4 damage x2 which basically useless against corruptor. Regardless of that situation, I do agree that Thors could not be supply efficient, even though their attack has improved against armored units. Also, isolating the units from the reality does not show everything about the performance of both Thor attacks (Splash damage being a factor and number of units), I believe I already made that clear in the OP.
On May 04 2016 06:47 monkeymarco001 wrote:
In the late-game, i noticed you consider that massive units not clumbed up. But in the real fight, brood lord or tempest just zoned your thor. With a lot of zerg units or protoss units, your thor is not going to do damage to those air units. Even do damage, thor is not that useful as before which can fight muta or phoenix. Now, libs can be an answer now. Overall, thor is not a practical unit. If we take into consideration Thors are still bulky, clumsy and incredibly slow, they may not be efficient units, they may get zoned out by your opponent units/spells, but that is the case for both attack modes. And if they get to do damage, it is going to be more damage against Broodlords and Tempests than it used to be before.
On the other hand, are Thors produced to counter Mutas anymore? That's the Liberators job now. We're talking about a change that could potentially grant the Thor a new place in the game.
On May 04 2016 06:47 monkeymarco001 wrote:
Let's talk back about ZvT, late game, zerg just make ultralisk and force terran to go mass libs to counter. And terran can still win against zerg because libs can kill corruptor. But now, corruptor counter libs and force to make vikings which make terran has no answer to duel with ultralisk. I don't see a chance that a terran can build ghost as well as air army together. Zerg late game unit combination will have few infestors ultralisk and so many corruptor, and those infestors will fungal those ghost actually and ghost is so clumped up. This lend to making ghost to counter ultralisk is not a really good idea. The question is: is it ever a good idea to make only ghosts to counter Ultras? ZvT Late-game is tough, undoubtably. However, it feels like the scenario you're presenting is dire for the Terran. You're not taking into consideration Terran can build walls with Depots, Turrets, Command Centers and Planetary Fortresses, protecting your Liberators and Ghosts with those, turtling and zoning away the Ultras / Infestors. Also, if you want to move out on the map to harass the zerg, that's when your bio-medivac comes into play.
On May 04 2016 08:17 Powermoo wrote:
i mean we all know they nerfed it to keep liberators as the preferred unit. why the need for all this math? While I do agree that the intention of the patch is to keep the Liberator as the counter to Light Air units, do you believe it is really a nerf?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9BhgFpT.jpg)
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