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United Kingdom20326 Posts
The mass adepts nonsense should also be adressed. Yes, the unit is used, so it's ok. But I don't think it's fun to play against
I don't think that Marines are fun to play against and they're objectively much more central to the game than Adepts and have been for more than 10x longer
It's not a good enough argument for significant balance or design changes
and adepts are far too tanky
Keeping the same rough balance, would you choose to increase their DPS* further in order to lower HP?
*either just raw DPS or ability to maintain it, such as having better range, speed or less overkill
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The beginning was quite interesting, even promising, but that only made the last paragraphs more painful :
1/ the photon cannon change looks good ? To whom ? So you want to definitely kill muta play ? At least if you push this change test a +light bonus that would help in PvP for the phoenix wars or the 14 vs air AA stalkers.
2/ Terran changes look good. Jesus. T are arguably already struggling in high level TvP and you nerf their core unit ? For a banshee on steroids that will be frustrating as hell with 0 counterplay (but such a "cool kill workers harass yeah" factor)... I'm quite puzzled.
3/ since when are mutas central in ZvP ?
A very confusing ending and somewhat disappointing outlooks even though the rest of the community update was rather interesting.
A quick comment about the numerous recent balance test maps and the overall change policy : personally I don't really like it. On a related note I'm unsure weekly community updates are as useful and relevant as they were in beta, especially since the recent ones lacked a firm direction. I'd rather you took more time maturing your suggestions and updates, even if that means only getting one per month or even less.
That being said, I like the game as it is currently and I believe it still has a lot of potential to grow -though probably not with the proposed changes, you can do better than that David 
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I still thank that they keep talking to the community despite it seems not to work pretty much. Blizzard seems to be very afraid about changing the game because they consider: a) the game is almost finished, and b) heavy or usual changes may scare away players.
But they haven't consider another risk: a) they may be wrong and the game still needs many changes, and b) if that's true, doing nothing or introduce changes very slowly will scare away players.
If they introduce changes faster, they'll reach faster to the unknown afar point where the game will be properly balanced. It's disturbing to know that they consider that the units should be changed the lesser because "mastery them is part of the fun" while EVERY PLAYER consider much more important game balance.
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On April 22 2016 07:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
2/ Terran changes look good. Jesus. T are arguably already struggling in high level TvP and you nerf their core unit ? For a banshee on steroids that will be frustrating as hell with 0 counterplay (but such a "cool kill workers harass yeah" factor)... I'm quite puzzled.
The liberator nerf just nerfs their AA vs armored so it makes basically no difference in tvp. It's not like libs can kill tempests currently.
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On April 22 2016 07:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
2/ Terran changes look good. Jesus. T are arguably already struggling in high level TvP and you nerf their core unit ? For a banshee on steroids that will be frustrating as hell with 0 counterplay (but such a "cool kill workers harass yeah" factor)... I'm quite puzzled.
The liberator nerf just nerfs their AA vs armored so it makes basically no difference in tvp. It's not like libs can kill tempests currently.
Aren't they talking about the 5->4 radius change ?
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On April 22 2016 07:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:51 Charoisaur wrote:On April 22 2016 07:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
2/ Terran changes look good. Jesus. T are arguably already struggling in high level TvP and you nerf their core unit ? For a banshee on steroids that will be frustrating as hell with 0 counterplay (but such a "cool kill workers harass yeah" factor)... I'm quite puzzled.
The liberator nerf just nerfs their AA vs armored so it makes basically no difference in tvp. It's not like libs can kill tempests currently. Aren't they talking about the 5->4 radius change ?
No
us.battle.net
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What about cannon rushes? What about Protoss turtling with cannons while teching to unstoppable carrier deathball? This patch is getting ridiculous.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
What about cannon rushes?
The change is +damage to biological air, not to biological
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On April 22 2016 08:30 Cyro wrote:The change is +damage to biological air, not to biological
The second part is a legit concern though, cannons that do bonus damage vs corruptors would make lategame tempests + storm even more problematic. I really think this would be an extremely bad change for a number of reasons (kills mutas but does nothing to promote diversity in the end since every P will still mass immortals, makes air + storm even more of a checkmate...). I really hope they reconsider their stance on that one, and if they don't well I'll take the free wins on Dusk Towers but I'll be very sad for my Z brothers and the overall state of the game.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I agree & want stuff like better stalker-aa-light damage instead
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Man, I havent been able to play a lot of LoTV yet as I'm workin a new job. Watch as much as I can and they are pretty fun and entertaining games. Majority of interviews I see they say it's way better than HotS/WoL, but reading the feedback is just allllllll over the place. And reading Blizzards community updates, they do seem to be a bit lost on what to do next.
I understand wanting to take the best course of action, but at some point you gotta make a decisive decision, for better or worse. The balance test maps only give so much feedback...
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On April 22 2016 08:30 Cyro wrote:The change is +damage to biological air, not to biological
Indeed, its only vs zerg.
But it would be nice if Pylons can only hit units and not buildings, like the liberator.
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On April 22 2016 08:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 08:30 Cyro wrote:What about cannon rushes? The change is +damage to biological air, not to biological Indeed, its only vs zerg. But it would be nice if Pylons can only hit units and not buildings, like the liberator.
Except then you wouldn't be able to hold a cannon rush with PO.
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Sorry but cannons can't move with my army. Fix stalkers to be decent vs light air units such as mutalisks. I can't see a problem with that. It'll even be helpful vs mass phoenix abuse.
Also, why the heck do air units need to be overpowered vs ground? Mutalisks, liberators..
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On April 22 2016 08:56 angrybacon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 08:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 22 2016 08:30 Cyro wrote:What about cannon rushes? The change is +damage to biological air, not to biological Indeed, its only vs zerg. But it would be nice if Pylons can only hit units and not buildings, like the liberator. Except then you wouldn't be able to hold a cannon rush with PO.
Good point! didnt thought of that, i play terran and zerg, forgot about the canon rush in pvp.
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Can anyone link to the proposed changes? They talk about it but I can't find the changes.
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I feel that this cannon buff will indirectly effect TvP which will make bio pushes a non-option when they have photon overcharge + one cannon if they are playing very defensive. This will also encourage cannon rushers even more than normal and it's already a plague on team ladders, seriously every 1/3 game is a cannon rush.
swarm host cost decrease is very nice, because it's such a shitty unit it deserves a cheaper price but will people ever make them? I doubt it, they have no place in the meta where mutas, nydus, drops or ravagers could do what they do but better. If swarm hosts are harass units or built to force the opponent into a bad position, ravagers and lurkers fill that role and mutas and nydus fill the role for harass. I'll build a few if this change goes live, I don't mind the unit design, I just never ever find a time to build them.
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On April 22 2016 06:27 terrantosaur wrote:
No mention of mech remaining utterly unviable. It is very hard to remain positive when
a) laddering is just 75% defending all-ins as a terrran (Masters). Will it be reapers in TvT, roach/rav in TvZ or fucking Pylons under your ramp (or 15 other "all-ins" available to Protoss while they take their third base)
b) tankivacs are just stupid. SC2 is an RTS game - for those people without 500APM, WOL and HOTS allowed people to play a positional/more strategic game of SC2. TvT often defaults to who can doom drop most effectively and has a "coin-flip" quality to it nowadays.
c) Protoss is too strong vs T. Zest has been showing it for weeks and showcases at the highest level what most Terrans on ladder already know. Cmon. Tempest supply/adepts/immortals. I saw a GM game the other day where a protoss proxied 2 robos outside the terran's natural. It was scouted early and was still impossible to stop. Perhaps Maru could stop it (if he got lucky with the scout) but let me tell you that 99% of ordinary players can't. The difference in skill required to be the protoss and do the attacking (while expanding!) vs being the terran and defending is a joke - especially with the WP pick-up range. I convinced myself of this by off-racing with the build and it's stupid how easy it is to win.
d) Zerg... sigh. Where to start. Ultras, invincible nydus, ravager nonsense. Tankivacs and liberators are the only things making tvz playable. Tankivacs shouldn't be in the game and liberators are being nerfed.
e) the design of some of the terran's new units are just bizarre. Cyclones are all but never used except sometimes in early game tvt/tvp - where you build one. And that's it. Reaper grenades - what is the point of these except to encourage all-ins in tvt?
There is a reason why, when you take a look at viewing figures on TL for Brood War vs SC2, SC2's viewership is behind and falling: the game is just not fun to play. LotV is a poor cousin of HotS and IMO there needs to be radical redesign. I agree entirely with those above who lament that week after week we get procrastination. Could we not see a "radical" test-map where tankivacs are removed and mech is buffed. At least those of us interested in mech could then try to ascertain what needs to change (ie terran needs proper anti-air from the ground + cyclone needs complete redesign).
Agree with all of that, and it will only be worse when liberators suck more and Zerg essentially gets another unit in LOTV while Terran's only new unit, the liberator (cyclone doesn't count until it's fixed), is nerfed.
Why is it of sudden priority to buff the swarmhost rather than fixing all of the actual problems with the game? Invincible nydus, pylon cannon, 8 armor ultra, para bomb, tankivac, reaper grenade, tempest supply...list goes on. Oh, and of course - THE MAP POOL PLEASE this needs a change asap.
For me every game right now is like this:
TvT - you reaper all-in/attack or meta the reapers. Randomness, especially on new maps, because reaper grenade is just promoting players to all-in like this. It's really bad =/
TvZ - opponent masses 100% roach ravager into ultras into they probably won or you managed to amass enough liberators and ghosts to not die and you can only win if you emp the vipers, even then it's very hard.
TvP - this match-up is currently not playable. It seems to me throughout LOTV i never have played a game where i am ahead of the Protoss in any way, shape, or form. Protoss gets the 3rd nexus + defends with pylons and i am behind in tech, economy, production, units. You're basically forced to turtle on 2-3 base in this match-up, which then exacerbates the mass tempest issue. Since you are stuck on 2-3 base economy, and probably taking damage from bullshit prism+adept, Protoss has 3-4 sometimes a 5 base economy and just simply masses pure tempest with high templar or anything underneath. It's incredibly frustrating to play this match-up knowing i am behind every single game before anything even happens.
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On April 22 2016 07:28 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The mass adepts nonsense should also be adressed. Yes, the unit is used, so it's ok. But I don't think it's fun to play against I don't think that Marines are fun to play against and they're objectively much more central to the game than Adepts and have been for more than 10x longer It's not a good enough argument for significant balance or design changes Keeping the same rough balance, would you choose to increase their DPS* further in order to lower HP? *either just raw DPS or ability to maintain it, such as having better range, speed or less overkill
Well I like playing against marines they're strong but can be killed... the problem with adepts or new reapers or phoenixes is that it is very tough to kill them once they're in high numbers and even so, you have to build a strategy around their destruction.
To me the fun aspect is essential, and DK also said it, we need the game to be enjoyable by players of all skill levels, but still allow skill to express itself and let good players distinguish themselves.
I would not increase their dps, still less overkill would maybe be a good idea to maintain balance.
The problem is that I don't know how to solve the early game zerg shenanigans now that they don't want to nerf the ravager, and then nerfs regarding the immortal or the adept would not seem fair.
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EPT
