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We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup.
Source
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On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:Show nested quote +We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net
Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc).
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On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc).
Curious, do you also think spore +bio damage is a horrible bandaid?
That said, if you're going to give everything +bio vs air, may as well just nerf muta health
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Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on.
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On April 19 2016 03:50 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). Curious, do you also think spore +bio damage is a horrible bandaid?
ofc ("stupidities")
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On April 19 2016 03:50 Shuffleblade wrote:
Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on.
I agree this is definitely not the way to go for the reason you stated : if the Z managed to get a good number of mutas, no cannon buff will help.
An upgrade giving cannons anti air aoe was suggested at some point, it makes slightly more sense but I still think the problem is the mutas, not their counters.
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WOAH HEY that nerfs Terran drops as well.
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On April 19 2016 03:54 Incognoto wrote:
WOAH HEY that nerfs Terran drops as well.
no (+ AA bio) -unless you lift the bio units with phoenix into cannon range ha ha ha 
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I also want to throw in that I am not a fan of muta regeneration (or super high in general).
ATTENTION! THIS IS OVERSIMPLIFIED:
The reason is it takes strategy out of the game. With regular units you have to calculate whether an attack is worth it or not. You are trading muta hitpoints for damage dealt to enemy economy. Muta hitpoints correspond to spent resources and time.
The question always is: Is it worth to kill X workers if I take Y damage?
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value.
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I have no idea where this feedback is coming from. PvZ in Proleague, GSL and SSL, mutalisks have not been an issue at all.
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On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc).
but then again you run into the problem of mutas being even more shit in ZvT where Zerg can be considered having problems (even if just a tiny bit)
this game is made of bandaids at this point
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On April 19 2016 04:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
I also want to throw in that I am not a fan of muta regeneration (or super high in general).
ATTENTION! THIS IS OVERSIMPLIFIED:
The reason is it takes strategy out of the game. With regular units you have to calculate whether an attack is worth it or not. You are trading muta hitpoints for damage dealt to enemy economy. Muta hitpoints correspond to spent resources and time.
The question always is: Is it worth to kill X workers if I take Y damage?
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value.
Muta regen is one of the worst ideas ever introduced to the game. It has its place in the pantheon of most harmful concepts ever next to mediboost, oracle speed and warp prism long range pick up. Harass should be risky, at least far more than it is right now.
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On April 19 2016 04:04 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). but then again you run into the problem of mutas being even more shit in ZvT where Zerg can be considered having problems (even if just a tiny bit) this game is made of bandaids at this point
I have grieved the loss of muta ling bane styles in ZvT and accepted LotV is probably going to be ravager infestor all day long.
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On April 19 2016 04:04 DonDomingo wrote:
I have no idea where this feedback is coming from. PvZ in Proleague, GSL and SSL, mutalisks have not been an issue at all.
That's exactly what they're addressing. They're not an issue because protoss are forced into stargate openers.
Blizzard wants them to also not be an issue with other openers, so a protoss can do something other than stargate play.
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On April 19 2016 04:04 DonDomingo wrote:
I have no idea where this feedback is coming from. PvZ in Proleague, GSL and SSL, mutalisks have not been an issue at all.
careful here : ofc mutas haven't been a problem since every P and their brother is opening phoenix right now, precisely to deter the Z from ever wanting to switch into mutas. What Blizz is probably trying to address here is variety.
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On April 19 2016 04:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:04 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). but then again you run into the problem of mutas being even more shit in ZvT where Zerg can be considered having problems (even if just a tiny bit) this game is made of bandaids at this point I have grieved the loss of muta ling bane styles in ZvT and accepted LotV is probably going to be ravager infestor all day long.
I, and many of the Zergs I play with, only do MLB into ultra. I don't think I know anyone who primarily does roach ravager anymore, and this is high master/gm level zergs.
Of course, we're also in NA, so yeah
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On April 19 2016 04:10 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:04 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). but then again you run into the problem of mutas being even more shit in ZvT where Zerg can be considered having problems (even if just a tiny bit) this game is made of bandaids at this point I have grieved the loss of muta ling bane styles in ZvT and accepted LotV is probably going to be ravager infestor all day long. I, and many of the Zergs I play with, only do MLB into ultra. I don't think I know anyone who primarily does roach ravager anymore, and this is high master/gm level zergs. Of course, we're also in NA, so yeah
ok
anyway no real point discussing the removal of muta regen, this is their idea and they're far too proud of it to ever think about getting rid of it.
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Russian Federation54 Posts
not cannons, stalkers pls. but this is right direction - less mutalisk switch power
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On April 19 2016 04:13 Couguar wrote:
not cannons, stalkers pls. but this is right direction - less mutalisk switch power
but what would the buff to stalkers be ? They already have +armored air damage which is pretty essential in fending off drops vT. Though if their anti air was changed to be +light while still doing its current damage to armored it would be an interesting move -diminishing the strenght of stargate in PvP and allowing to play blink vs mutas.
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On April 19 2016 04:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
I also want to throw in that I am not a fan of muta regeneration (or super high in general).
ATTENTION! THIS IS OVERSIMPLIFIED:
The reason is it takes strategy out of the game. With regular units you have to calculate whether an attack is worth it or not. You are trading muta hitpoints for damage dealt to enemy economy. Muta hitpoints correspond to spent resources and time.
The question always is: Is it worth to kill X workers if I take Y damage?
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value.
I'm not sure I agree with you here, cause all in all this whole reasoning could be done with spore crawlers and their buff vs Bio worked very well : it countered the mass Muta vs mass Muta meta and didn't change anything else in the game.
Photo canon buff could do the same.
Moreover, that way Muta keep their power in open battles where they a cool tool for zerg but far from being OP.
On April 19 2016 03:50 Shuffleblade wrote:
Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on.
1- show me how they deal with them without massing phoenixes? the whole point of the debate is about allowing Protosses to stop using phoenix in every PvZ, FYI.
2 - that's not true, just look how spore crawler buff changed ZvZ.
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EPT
