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On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons. mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays).
Agreed. Muta regen made the matchup way less diverse/fun. A zerg should be punished for getting all his mutas stormed but 30 seconds later they're all full hp again. You have to wipe them out, getting the stack low does very little. The regen basically forces toss to have a standing phoenix army as templar/stalker/static d just doesn't cut it against a decent switch.
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AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently.
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On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently.
Wasn't it added at the start of HotS, at the same time the WM was introduced?
I always assumed they added it because they could and it was "creative" lol. Same reason for turbovac, altho you could argue it was to "add more flashy micro opportunities" for that one I guess.
Whatever were the reasons, the cons outweigh the pros. Phoenix needed to get a buff so big that it became the most clear hardcounter in sc2, to make mutas fair in PvZ.
Edit: Rereading your reasoning, it does makes sense. I also agree with you that they could have changed the WM instead ofc.
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On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently.
Considering that MMMM vs MLB was the best meta ever to play and to watch with high control micro/macro from both sides at any stage of the game, I feel like it was a very good idea but currently, I don't know.
If they remove the tankivac, nerf the ravagers, the ultras and buff a bit the mine (which I hope), tvz will be solved but zvp... Well, this MU has always caused the most rage and frustration, the situation is not better or worse than before.
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On April 19 2016 23:33 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Considering that MMMM vs MLB was the best meta ever to play and to watch with high control micro/macro from both sides at any stage of the game, I feel like it was a very good idea but currently, I don't know. If they remove the tankivac, nerf the ravagers, the ultras and buff a bit the mine (which I hope), tvz will be solved but zvp... Well, this MU has always caused the most rage and frustration, the situation is not better or worse than before.
Well while I agree that MMMM vs MLB was exciting and might be best meta for TvZ I still think that WM hitting both ground and air didn't make much sense. However it was needed because of oracle rushes. If the oracle rushes were nerfed then I firmly believe that cheaper (both resources and supply wise) WM but without ability to hit air would be much much better for the game. Then no muta regen would be needed -> no range buff to phoenixes etc.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 19 2016 22:28 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 20:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:On April 19 2016 05:57 Tyrhanius wrote:On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons. mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays). ALL Protoss units regen their shield twice faster than mutalisk ! Medivac heals bio 9 times faster than mutalisk ! And VCS can repair any mecanical units faster than mutas regen ! It's just anti-Zerg bias claming mutas regen is OP, but medivac/shield regen are fine... P/T have massive anti-air AOE with WM, Thor, liberators, storm, archons, while Mutas are much more expensive than this units ! 3 mutas more expensive than a thor, 2 mutas more than one liberator or a HT. But you want 1 shot of thor/liberator or a storm will make useless a 10-20 mutas than cost 1000/1000-2000/2000 ! It's just pure whine and anti-Zerg bias rather than a serious demand. But here's the true problem:.A Zerg player can go mass Mutas and trade favorably against mass Stalker in a straight up fight (no lings). That is an imbalance. The Stalker, the alternative to the Phoenix, loses to Mutas across the board in nearly every criteria. The Mutalisk is a harassment unit. It should not trade favorably in straight up fights w/o support. Period. Yet it does. And that is not even factoring in Muta regen. See the problem now? So the problem is that in straigh up engagement, stalkers lose against Mutas? I disagree: 1) With good micro, except if the engagement is in a narrow space, blink stalkers should win just because they have better ups than the muta 2) They are cheaper than the mutas which are T2 unit coming after a long tech (spire...) and can be cost efficient only when they are 10 at the very least so it is not like the zerg pop out a mutas ball easely 3) Stalkers is designed as a very versatile unit so they are not a hardcounter to muta but a softcounter which can be efficient with good micro or support units (sentry, archon, phoenix) 4) Finally, talking about balance with just an unit vs unit example has never been meaningful, the AA zerg unit, the corrupter gets rekt by void ray, skytoss, blabla. (even if skytoss could be op, this argument would still be invalid) So maybe mutas regenerate too much but their overall stats are correct, I do not see a problem in this aspect.
In mass vs. mass games stalkers lose not because of their damage but because their shooting range and muta clamping. But why on Earth would someone engaged stalkers with a guardian shield? Better is to fly around and use immobility of stalkers. YES, you read correctly, stalkers are immobile when talking stalkers vs. mutalisks. That's why Protoss needs a helping hand.
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On April 19 2016 23:28 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Wasn't it added at the start of HotS, at the same time the WM was introduced?
accoridng to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/387767-beta-balance-update-9
It was still beta but more like end of it. 3 months later the game was released.
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On April 19 2016 23:52 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:28 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Wasn't it added at the start of HotS, at the same time the WM was introduced? accoridng to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/387767-beta-balance-update-9It was still beta but more like end of it. 3 months later the game was released.
Love how the first two posts on that thread hit the nail on both the muta buff and the widow mine :D
"Cyro: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza)"
"blade55555: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-"
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On April 19 2016 23:43 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:33 stilt wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Considering that MMMM vs MLB was the best meta ever to play and to watch with high control micro/macro from both sides at any stage of the game, I feel like it was a very good idea but currently, I don't know. If they remove the tankivac, nerf the ravagers, the ultras and buff a bit the mine (which I hope), tvz will be solved but zvp... Well, this MU has always caused the most rage and frustration, the situation is not better or worse than before. Well while I agree that MMMM vs MLB was exciting and might be best meta for TvZ I still think that WM hitting both ground and air didn't make much sense. However it was needed because of oracle rushes. If the oracle rushes were nerfed then I firmly believe that cheaper (both resources and supply wise) WM but without ability to hit air would be much much better for the game. Then no muta regen would be needed -> no range buff to phoenixes etc.
I agree that the AA of WM was a bit awkward however without this ability, it would have not fix at all the muta ball problem they were already in WOL even without the muta/regen and speed.
In parallel, I think that the medivacs boost could have been too strong in this situation while with this muta buff, I feel like it was a good addition.
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On April 19 2016 23:59 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:52 egrimm wrote:On April 19 2016 23:28 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Wasn't it added at the start of HotS, at the same time the WM was introduced? accoridng to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/387767-beta-balance-update-9It was still beta but more like end of it. 3 months later the game was released. Love how the first two posts on that thread hit the nail on both the muta buff and the widow mine :D "Cyro: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza)" "blade55555: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-"
haha yeah exaclty  As we can clearly see it is not like nobody could predict the outcome of these changes 
Additionally we can even say which races they do play based on their legitimate fears 
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On April 20 2016 00:01 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:43 egrimm wrote:On April 19 2016 23:33 stilt wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Considering that MMMM vs MLB was the best meta ever to play and to watch with high control micro/macro from both sides at any stage of the game, I feel like it was a very good idea but currently, I don't know. If they remove the tankivac, nerf the ravagers, the ultras and buff a bit the mine (which I hope), tvz will be solved but zvp... Well, this MU has always caused the most rage and frustration, the situation is not better or worse than before. Well while I agree that MMMM vs MLB was exciting and might be best meta for TvZ I still think that WM hitting both ground and air didn't make much sense. However it was needed because of oracle rushes. If the oracle rushes were nerfed then I firmly believe that cheaper (both resources and supply wise) WM but without ability to hit air would be much much better for the game. Then no muta regen would be needed -> no range buff to phoenixes etc. I agree that the AA of WM was a bit awkward however without this ability, it would have not fix at all the muta ball problem they were already in WOL even without the muta/regen and speed. In parallel, I think that the medivacs boost could have been too strong in this situation while with this muta buff, I feel like it was a good addition.
Idk, in WoL TvZ seemed fine except of BL/infestor ofc. It is ancient history now though so I cannot say for sure
imho marines + thors + would be sufficient to deal with pre-buff mutas when accompanied with tanks/WM for ground support against ling/banes.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On April 20 2016 00:02 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 23:59 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 19 2016 23:52 egrimm wrote:On April 19 2016 23:28 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Wasn't it added at the start of HotS, at the same time the WM was introduced? accoridng to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/387767-beta-balance-update-9It was still beta but more like end of it. 3 months later the game was released. Love how the first two posts on that thread hit the nail on both the muta buff and the widow mine :D "Cyro: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza)" "blade55555: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-" haha yeah exaclty As we can clearly see it is not like nobody could predict the outcome of these changes Additionally we can even say which races they do play based on their legitimate fears
Hahaha it's a bit weird getting quoted 3 and a half years later
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On April 20 2016 00:05 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 00:01 stilt wrote:On April 19 2016 23:43 egrimm wrote:On April 19 2016 23:33 stilt wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Considering that MMMM vs MLB was the best meta ever to play and to watch with high control micro/macro from both sides at any stage of the game, I feel like it was a very good idea but currently, I don't know. If they remove the tankivac, nerf the ravagers, the ultras and buff a bit the mine (which I hope), tvz will be solved but zvp... Well, this MU has always caused the most rage and frustration, the situation is not better or worse than before. Well while I agree that MMMM vs MLB was exciting and might be best meta for TvZ I still think that WM hitting both ground and air didn't make much sense. However it was needed because of oracle rushes. If the oracle rushes were nerfed then I firmly believe that cheaper (both resources and supply wise) WM but without ability to hit air would be much much better for the game. Then no muta regen would be needed -> no range buff to phoenixes etc. I agree that the AA of WM was a bit awkward however without this ability, it would have not fix at all the muta ball problem they were already in WOL even without the muta/regen and speed. In parallel, I think that the medivacs boost could have been too strong in this situation while with this muta buff, I feel like it was a good addition. Idk, in WoL TvZ seemed fine except of BL/infestor ofc. It is ancient history now though so I cannot say for sure imho marines + thors + would be sufficient to deal with pre-buff mutas when accompanied with tanks/WM for ground support against ling/banes.
TvZ was good even I never really liked the tank and the micro that the zerg must pull off in order to win: focus the tanks with the muta and the bane into the marines, it was not that enjoyable to do and to Watch than the WM stuff however I still remember all the whine on big muta balls in zvt, in term of pure design, I'm pretty sure it was already a concern (at least, it was in PvZ!). And, without buffed mutas and the AA of WM, I think the MU would have been based on tank compo and not WM but here again, we can rewrite history!
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On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas...
Your whole post is based upon some really backwards thinking, not the least is the above.
Protoss players have the greatest incentive to play different builds that everyone else does: winning.
There are obviously your Hases, Stardusts and so on playing SC2. They're just not winning. They're not winning because cheesing is a very, very bad option for Protoss vs Zerg in LotV. What's more, it's not just cheesing that's bad, but 2-base pressure in general (as I pointed out above, though you seemed to miss every single point).
Protoss players aren't all doing the exact same build because it's "too good". They're doing the same build because anything else dies to scouting + muta switches. Even assuming the first were correct, there would still be players doing other things, if for no other reason than the surprise factor allowing them to win versus better opponents. That doesn't happen.
The difference between LotV and HotS for Muta play is this: tech to defeat mutas still takes the same amount of time to get up whereas the resource bank needed to do a muta switch is much faster to achieve due to the new relative safety of zergs in the early-game (barring oracles / phoenix) and the starting workers change.
In HotS, you had a ton of time ... you could do a 2-base pressure (with resources to back it up -- whose point wasn't to prevent mutas, but to economically harm the zerg -- yet the very act of pushing forced resources away from a potential switch, weakening the strategy, allowing more time to react to such a switch), you could go blink (and have time to get cannons up to delay to a stargate switch against mutas because your 2 bases wouldn't run out of resources amassing a defense and [barely] taking a third), you could do tons of things.
In LotV, without a stargate, you have no way to pressure the zerg (allowing them to bank resources faster), you have more starting workers (allowing them to bank resources faster), and you run out of resources faster (on 2-base ... it's nearly impossible to take and defend a third versus a fast muta switch unless you've gone phoenix in LotV because you don't have the resources to do so).
So, your surprise that everyone is opening up to counter mutas (phoenix) should really be leading you to wonder why ... it's because we have to. Literally all that Protoss needs to be able to open anything else is just a tiny amount of time to be able to survive the initial portion of a muta-switch. Not to be invincible. Not to force mutas to always be bad options versus Protoss ... just enough time to be able to start switching to phoenix.
Again, I really dislike the change. I think it's bad overall for the game. I'd much prefer a change to mutas (why have +bio on spores and cannons instead of just nerfing muta regen, the cause for both of these changes). Mutas are absolutely the reason that everyone opens phoenix, however.
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On April 20 2016 00:18 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 00:02 egrimm wrote:On April 19 2016 23:59 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 19 2016 23:52 egrimm wrote:On April 19 2016 23:28 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 19 2016 23:22 egrimm wrote:
AFAIK mute regen was added in HotS directly because of MMMM reigning supreme in TvZ. The idea was that WM splash hits mutas to hard so instead of idk changing the splash or making WM do not hit air, they decided to add fast regen to mutmut so they can participate in fight more frequently. Wasn't it added at the start of HotS, at the same time the WM was introduced? accoridng to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/387767-beta-balance-update-9It was still beta but more like end of it. 3 months later the game was released. Love how the first two posts on that thread hit the nail on both the muta buff and the widow mine :D "Cyro: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza)" "blade55555: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-" haha yeah exaclty As we can clearly see it is not like nobody could predict the outcome of these changes Additionally we can even say which races they do play based on their legitimate fears Hahaha it's a bit weird getting quoted 3 and a half years later
So much time, so many good sc memories
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On April 19 2016 23:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 22:28 stilt wrote:On April 19 2016 20:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:On April 19 2016 05:57 Tyrhanius wrote:On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons. mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays). ALL Protoss units regen their shield twice faster than mutalisk ! Medivac heals bio 9 times faster than mutalisk ! And VCS can repair any mecanical units faster than mutas regen ! It's just anti-Zerg bias claming mutas regen is OP, but medivac/shield regen are fine... P/T have massive anti-air AOE with WM, Thor, liberators, storm, archons, while Mutas are much more expensive than this units ! 3 mutas more expensive than a thor, 2 mutas more than one liberator or a HT. But you want 1 shot of thor/liberator or a storm will make useless a 10-20 mutas than cost 1000/1000-2000/2000 ! It's just pure whine and anti-Zerg bias rather than a serious demand. But here's the true problem:.A Zerg player can go mass Mutas and trade favorably against mass Stalker in a straight up fight (no lings). That is an imbalance. The Stalker, the alternative to the Phoenix, loses to Mutas across the board in nearly every criteria. The Mutalisk is a harassment unit. It should not trade favorably in straight up fights w/o support. Period. Yet it does. And that is not even factoring in Muta regen. See the problem now? So the problem is that in straigh up engagement, stalkers lose against Mutas? I disagree: 1) With good micro, except if the engagement is in a narrow space, blink stalkers should win just because they have better ups than the muta 2) They are cheaper than the mutas which are T2 unit coming after a long tech (spire...) and can be cost efficient only when they are 10 at the very least so it is not like the zerg pop out a mutas ball easely 3) Stalkers is designed as a very versatile unit so they are not a hardcounter to muta but a softcounter which can be efficient with good micro or support units (sentry, archon, phoenix) 4) Finally, talking about balance with just an unit vs unit example has never been meaningful, the AA zerg unit, the corrupter gets rekt by void ray, skytoss, blabla. (even if skytoss could be op, this argument would still be invalid) So maybe mutas regenerate too much but their overall stats are correct, I do not see a problem in this aspect. In mass vs. mass games stalkers lose not because of their damage but because their shooting range and muta clamping. But why on Earth would someone engaged stalkers with a guardian shield? Better is to fly around and use immobility of stalkers. YES, you read correctly, stalkers are immobile when talking stalkers vs. mutalisks. That's why Protoss needs a helping hand.
Ok so, when your mass of stalkers do not reach the muta because of their lack of rang, it is the fault of a bad engagement in which you're not supposing to profit. And no, stalkers with blink are pretty mobile and with "helping hand" such as Archon/Storm/pheonix in support they can repel efficiently a harass (didn't count the MSC). And once again, mutas are not a cheap investissment, a opening in muta in zvp is pretty riscky against all sort of timing and a muta switch is a gamble which paid off with at least 2000/2000 min and gaz so it is not as if the strat was easy to pull off because a counter Attack would be devastating, this is always a tricky spot, moreover, if the spire is scouted before it ends, it will rarely works, if the first phoenix are well microed, they are really good supporting unit by forcing little engagement of a probably no upgraded muta ball.
Making the stalkers a hardcounter of the mutas will probably solve the muta problem in zvp but will erase a large part of the tactical depht of this MU in a strat which is currently not heavely use in the current meta. (I watched a lot of Stream with TLO, Firecake, True, Snute or the gm commentator Yogo and maybe I didn't watch at the good time but I didn't watch many mutas in zvp even without pheonix)
Edit: I think I can add a point to the use of phoenix, when you want to make a push Hydras/ lurkers, if the guy has 10 phoenix or more, you seriously must balance the proportion nicely because if Something goes wrong, you gave no retreat and the hydras fall rapidly under a lift.
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This is where the chrono nerf really hurt. In HoTS you could put up a reactionary stargate to mutas, save up chrono, and push out a few phoenixes quick. In LOTV, with chrono being much slower and unable to be banked, you need to have a stargate (preferably 2) already in place by the time you get a hint that mutas are coming.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
The chrono nerf hurt early game too, like pre-warpgate. Your ability to change what you are doing and emphasize units or emphasize warpgates or a few of your first tech unit is hurt, openings generally look more similar to each other.
I'm susprised that warpgate hasn't been reduced in research time by 10 or 15 seconds given the weakness of protoss pre-warpgate. Timing attacks that would hit the exact second that warpgate research finished (to be affected by this change) are weaker than ever against all three races, yet warpgate research is absolutely critical for defensive play. 10 seconds would be felt there.
Excellent post @Edowyth
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On April 20 2016 00:20 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas...
Your whole post is based upon some really backwards thinking, not the least is the above. Protoss players have the greatest incentive to play different builds that everyone else does: winning. There are obviously your Hases, Stardusts and so on playing SC2. They're just not winning. They're not winning because cheesing is a very, very bad option for Protoss vs Zerg in LotV. What's more, it's not just cheesing that's bad, but 2-base pressure in general (as I pointed out above, though you seemed to miss every single point). Protoss players aren't all doing the exact same build because it's "too good". They're doing the same build because anything else dies to scouting + muta switches. Even assuming the first were correct, there would still be players doing other things, if for no other reason than the surprise factor allowing them to win versus better opponents. That doesn't happen. The difference between LotV and HotS for Muta play is this: tech to defeat mutas still takes the same amount of time to get up whereas the resource bank needed to do a muta switch is much faster to achieve due to the new relative safety of zergs in the early-game (barring oracles / phoenix) and the starting workers change. In HotS, you had a ton of time ... you could do a 2-base pressure (with resources to back it up -- whose point wasn't to prevent mutas, but to economically harm the zerg -- yet the very act of pushing forced resources away from a potential switch, weakening the strategy, allowing more time to react to such a switch), you could go blink (and have time to get cannons up to delay to a stargate switch against mutas because your 2 bases wouldn't run out of resources amassing a defense and [barely] taking a third), you could do tons of things. In LotV, without a stargate, you have no way to pressure the zerg (allowing them to bank resources faster), you have more starting workers (allowing them to bank resources faster), and you run out of resources faster (on 2-base ... it's nearly impossible to take and defend a third versus a fast muta switch unless you've gone phoenix in LotV because you don't have the resources to do so). So, your surprise that everyone is opening up to counter mutas (phoenix) should really be leading you to wonder why ... it's because we have to. Literally all that Protoss needs to be able to open anything else is just a tiny amount of time to be able to survive the initial portion of a muta-switch. Not to be invincible. Not to force mutas to always be bad options versus Protoss ... just enough time to be able to start switching to phoenix. Again, I really dislike the change. I think it's bad overall for the game. I'd much prefer a change to mutas (why have +bio on spores and cannons instead of just nerfing muta regen, the cause for both of these changes). Mutas are absolutely the reason that everyone opens phoenix, however.
I'm convinced, thanks for enlightening me. ^_^ Very well written
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On April 20 2016 01:44 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 00:20 Edowyth wrote:On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas...
Your whole post is based upon some really backwards thinking, not the least is the above. Protoss players have the greatest incentive to play different builds that everyone else does: winning. There are obviously your Hases, Stardusts and so on playing SC2. They're just not winning. They're not winning because cheesing is a very, very bad option for Protoss vs Zerg in LotV. What's more, it's not just cheesing that's bad, but 2-base pressure in general (as I pointed out above, though you seemed to miss every single point). Protoss players aren't all doing the exact same build because it's "too good". They're doing the same build because anything else dies to scouting + muta switches. Even assuming the first were correct, there would still be players doing other things, if for no other reason than the surprise factor allowing them to win versus better opponents. That doesn't happen. The difference between LotV and HotS for Muta play is this: tech to defeat mutas still takes the same amount of time to get up whereas the resource bank needed to do a muta switch is much faster to achieve due to the new relative safety of zergs in the early-game (barring oracles / phoenix) and the starting workers change. In HotS, you had a ton of time ... you could do a 2-base pressure (with resources to back it up -- whose point wasn't to prevent mutas, but to economically harm the zerg -- yet the very act of pushing forced resources away from a potential switch, weakening the strategy, allowing more time to react to such a switch), you could go blink (and have time to get cannons up to delay to a stargate switch against mutas because your 2 bases wouldn't run out of resources amassing a defense and [barely] taking a third), you could do tons of things. In LotV, without a stargate, you have no way to pressure the zerg (allowing them to bank resources faster), you have more starting workers (allowing them to bank resources faster), and you run out of resources faster (on 2-base ... it's nearly impossible to take and defend a third versus a fast muta switch unless you've gone phoenix in LotV because you don't have the resources to do so). So, your surprise that everyone is opening up to counter mutas (phoenix) should really be leading you to wonder why ... it's because we have to. Literally all that Protoss needs to be able to open anything else is just a tiny amount of time to be able to survive the initial portion of a muta-switch. Not to be invincible. Not to force mutas to always be bad options versus Protoss ... just enough time to be able to start switching to phoenix. Again, I really dislike the change. I think it's bad overall for the game. I'd much prefer a change to mutas (why have +bio on spores and cannons instead of just nerfing muta regen, the cause for both of these changes). Mutas are absolutely the reason that everyone opens phoenix, however. I'm convinced, thanks for enlightening me. ^_^ Very well written
If you nerf muta regen that will kill them even harder in ZvT. That will give protoss more options but will kill mutas in both ZvP and ZvT. (To be fair they are quite dead in ZvP at this point)
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EPT
