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On April 19 2016 03:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:50 Shuffleblade wrote:
Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on. I agree this is definitely not the way to go for the reason you stated : if the Z managed to get a good number of mutas, no cannon buff will help. An upgrade giving cannons anti air aoe was suggested at some point, it makes slightly more sense but I still think the problem is the mutas, not their counters.
Sorry, but why should canons save you from an 80 supply army thats worth 4000-4000. Don't understand that point.
80 supply bio is even stronger, 40 blink stalkers can't be stopped by canons either. But it should be different with mutas?
If zerg can do such a mass mutalisk switch, then the player has lost the game long before that.
The canon buff is not against 40 mutas, its against 10-20 mutas max. 2-4 canons will keep you safe against 20 mutas. If mutas still trade, then they will lose a lot more resources than protoss. Thats the goal just as in zvz. Its a very good solution! It removes the problem but keeps the positive.
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On April 19 2016 04:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:29 Draddition wrote:On April 19 2016 04:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
2 - that's not true, just look how spore crawler buff changed ZvZ.
This, 1000x this. You guys mistake the goal here, the same problem so many have with the widow mine. This change would NOT be to have cannons always kill all the muta's. Its to slow the muta player down so that his opponent can respond. Better cannons means the muta player either has to mass muta's before fighting, which gives time for the protoss to tech to pheonix, or it gives a solid defenders advantage to the blink stalkers/templar/etc. I fear the end result would be that : 1- P will still play the same style all over again, with or without phoenix (even if I didn't fear muta switches I would open phoenix every game because of the harass possibilities and the scouting opportunities) ; 2- no PvZ will ever see a muta again. So overall I don't think this is a sensible change -you even lose some variety in the end, even if muta switches are already pretty rare- if you don't combine it with changes to immortals for instance.
We already know the endresult from zvz in hots. Its not about muta switches. If a zerg can switch to 40 mutas, then you have lost the game already.
If zerg plays mutalisks, expanding is very difficult, because he will keep you in your main. If your army is in main, he will attack third and so on. Canons will give protoss a bigger defenders advantage and let him expand against mutalisk openers. But canons wont stop harass because you cant put everywhere a canon. Thats why this change is so great.
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United Kingdom20310 Posts
If zerg can do such a mass mutalisk switch, then the player has lost the game long before that.
It's pretty easy to pop 10-15 mutas and climb to 30-40 in a reasonable amount of time if the game situation is right. My archon partner played a game vs Catz on stream earlier with a non-stargate PvZ opening and that happened - https://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/v/62098409 2:57:15
If you're not preemptively playing stargate and you're not killing the zerg before X timing, muta play comes up very often and is quite strong.
Since Legacy is high econ relative to previous expansions, the window of time where mutas are bad against stalkers seems smaller. Stalkers scale poorly due to their huge size to DPS ratio (can't fit many into a small space) and huge amount of wasted shots, especially on air units - they much prefer a 10v10 fight to a 30v30 fight.
On that subject, i'd like to see a stalker modified to attack air instantly and without overkill like a marine just to experiment and see exactly how much difference it makes. Anyone know the map editor well enough to do that?
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I do not see any real chance of playing against zerg without always having a stargate and phoenix out if this current canon change is the only thing that is going to change. It's funny how terrans have been saying that mutas should not be hard to deal with as protoss since you have blink stalkers etc, but they do not realise how huge the difference between blink stalkers and marines is vs mutas. I have yet to talk with one single protoss who finds mutas "not-too-much-of-a-problem" or "easy-to-handle" without falling behind without phoenix.
Imagine a terran having to keep 4-5x as many marines back hin his base against mutas and turrets both being more expensive, doing less dps vs air, not being able to be repaired and being able to unpower them. This is kinda how it feels as protoss, since keeping like 2 templar with 2-3 canons is getting them sniped for free or losing all in exchange for 2 mutas. :-)
My zerg clanmates keep telling me mutas vs no stargate is a free win, there is a reason every zerg immediatelly is keen on going into mutas upon not seeing a stargate. Unfortunately I never get the chance to make mutas when I 1vs1 as zerg, since everybody and his grandmother goes stargate. :-)
A real solution would be to adjust the stalker anti air vs mutas (be it overkill, dps, splash ... whatever) or adding a robo unit which is very good at handling mutas, then I can see this working. Archons, sentries and templar usually just work against mutas in your army, they just don't work all that well at defending 3-4 bases since in low counts they just get sniped for free, are stuck between buildings (archons), can not catch up with mutas or just get ignored.
In lotv it's kinda a summary of many things, mutas got their speed and regen (this is the most important part) buffed over time, amulet got removed (really old WOL times allowed a very different blink+storm defence), the new eco system making it so that you need to take a 4th decently quickly since you mine out so fast (before you could stay on a healthy 3 base eco for a while without getting totally outmacroed, zerg transitions being stronger (lurker, cracklings, ultras etc).
I think mutas are not really the biggest issue in zvp, they are kinda retardedly good without phoenix but as long as phoenix are out they are just kinda a "never really going to meet them anyways" thing (do not ever lose those phoenix do or remake them blindly even if you do not want them any more). It just pigeonholes playstyles, but there are more restrictions in other matchups as well. The whole hardcounter system ist just bad, phoenix are way too good vs mutas while mutas vs non-phoenix are way too strong as well. Similar with ultras. A high immortal count makes using ultralisks like committing suicide while having non or a very low count out (like after losing them when fighting vs crackling-broodlord etc) the newest expansions get amoved over by crackling-ultra since even a kinda big 3/3/3 gateway army without a big immortal-archon count can not stop them. So while micro and positioning helps, it's a lot about always having the right amount of hardcounter units out which I feel makes them game way worse than it could be. Certain units and compositions can definitely fair better vs other things, but once the hardcounters become too extreme it's no fun any more (even if balance statistics can talk about a 50% winrate).
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On April 19 2016 03:50 Shuffleblade wrote:
Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on.
Come on man, letting zerg use 4000 gas offensively on you unchecked should always kill you
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EPT
