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On April 19 2016 09:38 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now? 2-base pushes (which the Protoss did quite a bit versus Zerg in HotS) were intended to force the Zerg to invest gas into units to defend (which weakened any possible Muta switch by pre-emptively forcing the use of the gas). These kinds of 2-base pushes don't work in LotV mainly due to a few things: - Speedlings are cheap and give very fast map-control to the Zerg. They can see any Protoss ground force coming and build units as the forces move across the map. - Ravagers mean that forcefields are much less powerful. - 12-worker start gives faster access to a higher income-rate (which is the main thing required for a mutalisk switch, banked resources) - Fewer resources per base lessens the power of 2-base pushes (esp the low-value minerals which mine out super-fast, taking the wind out of all possible reinforcements to keep up pressure or try to fall back while securing a third) Not all of these things are bad. All of them do, however, contribute to the much faster capability (relatively) to tech-switch into mutalisks. Protoss, on the other hand, still has to have a mass of resources devoted into getting two stargates, production time, and investment into Phoenixes to be able to counter Mutalisks. Protoss' primary investment against a mutalisk switch is time for infrastructure.In HotS, this was more easily possible because (1) the Zerg had less gas due to the Protoss' pressure, (2) if in a really-tight spot, you could fall back to 2-base and still mine somewhat efficiently for a short time, (3) due to (1) the Mutalisks appeared in dribbles and drabs ... you could see the tech switch coming and prepare with a little bit of lee-way before there were 20+ Mutas eating probes. Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario. And that's all Protoss needs too. A better delaying tactic, so that the initial 15 or so mutas easily possible with LotV (or even 20+) can be staved off with existing forces (archons? stalkers? a couple of chrono-boosted phoenix?) and defenses which are slightly-more effective instead of simply dying to the switch. The spore buff helps in 40-muta switches too. With a little splash (fungal ... storm), and a few defenses (spores ... cannons) mutas can be effectively reduced in number to a force you can mop-up -- which allows your army a lot more freedom to try to apply counter-damage or secure other expansions. I still think nerfing muta regen would be a better change, but a cannon buff could work (depending upon numbers).
I disagree with your reasoning.
You make it sound like 2 base attacks in PvZ were designed to hinder mutas, this is not true. Accordning to your reasoning the games that P did not push on 2 base the Z would kill P with mutas, this was not the case. P handled mutas just fine in hots without 2 base pushes by utilizing blinkstalkers and Phoenix. Commonly P opened Oracle to have a stargate on hand if P needed to produce Phoenix against mutas. There were never a need to prematurely build Phoenix, it was done reactionary. In late game scenarios P added a second stargate as a safety precausion that weren't used unless Z Went for the muta switch.
The two base pushs you describe here sounds like all-in pushes to me, standard two base pressure builds work in lotv but all-ins genereally don't for two reasons that you stated.
- Ravagers and their ability to crush FF.
- The bases run out of minerals and thus the all-in fails.
Regarding lings being cheap and giving fast map-control, this is not unique to lotv, zerg has always had fast and cheap lings since wol. Regarding the economy it does not in fact effect muta builds the way that you describe, the economy does not give faster income rate to zerg (compared to terran and protoss). The races are still balanced in that regard, at least the zerg is not favored.
The main reason you don't see protoss being as aggresive in PvZ anymore is because with lotv the macro edge has passed from Z to P. In hots zerg were the macro race, they were the race that could use their defensive advantage to be greedy and get an edge in a macro game. In hots zerg all-ins and pressure builds were rare, instead we got the 3 hatch before pool build. In lotv its actually the protoss that has the strong defensive advantage and the macro edge. In P knows that they can be ahead by macroing why would they pressure or all-in? They don't atm because the meta is currently that P has the advantage in a macro game. Zerg used to need to be ahead a whole base with saturation,, that happens very rarely nowadays. You can argue that it is balanced out since Z has gotten new units that are more cost efficient and that would be partly true. Zerg is more cost efficient atm but their macro position has worsened more than their efficiency has improved.
Its not that 2 base pressure builds do not work, it is that protoss have no reason to properly explore those builds atm.
The reason that mutas came slower or in smaller chunks during hots was because the protoss was pressuring, as you say. Through attacking and scouting they found out what was happening and had time to prepare. I think its rediculous that protoss think that they are supposed to go "fast third nexus, double robo immortal with double forge".... "oh no, he has 20 mutas, obviously I am supposed to be able to defend against these without scouting or actually doing anything else out on the map!!! Yeah, lets buff the the PC so absolutely nothing can kill me while going all out greed with Tech and upgrades!"
Seriously, if you are going quick third base no pressure into rouble robo with forge and expect to be safe from all Z openings without scouting properly something is wrong. I think that the way P plays the game atm is not good. I don't Believe that P have to get ahead in macro to have a change against Z but if its true then lurker and possibly ultralisk needs to get nerfed.
Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas...
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On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 09:38 Edowyth wrote:On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now? 2-base pushes (which the Protoss did quite a bit versus Zerg in HotS) were intended to force the Zerg to invest gas into units to defend (which weakened any possible Muta switch by pre-emptively forcing the use of the gas). These kinds of 2-base pushes don't work in LotV mainly due to a few things: - Speedlings are cheap and give very fast map-control to the Zerg. They can see any Protoss ground force coming and build units as the forces move across the map. - Ravagers mean that forcefields are much less powerful. - 12-worker start gives faster access to a higher income-rate (which is the main thing required for a mutalisk switch, banked resources) - Fewer resources per base lessens the power of 2-base pushes (esp the low-value minerals which mine out super-fast, taking the wind out of all possible reinforcements to keep up pressure or try to fall back while securing a third) Not all of these things are bad. All of them do, however, contribute to the much faster capability (relatively) to tech-switch into mutalisks. Protoss, on the other hand, still has to have a mass of resources devoted into getting two stargates, production time, and investment into Phoenixes to be able to counter Mutalisks. Protoss' primary investment against a mutalisk switch is time for infrastructure.In HotS, this was more easily possible because (1) the Zerg had less gas due to the Protoss' pressure, (2) if in a really-tight spot, you could fall back to 2-base and still mine somewhat efficiently for a short time, (3) due to (1) the Mutalisks appeared in dribbles and drabs ... you could see the tech switch coming and prepare with a little bit of lee-way before there were 20+ Mutas eating probes. On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario. And that's all Protoss needs too. A better delaying tactic, so that the initial 15 or so mutas easily possible with LotV (or even 20+) can be staved off with existing forces (archons? stalkers? a couple of chrono-boosted phoenix?) and defenses which are slightly-more effective instead of simply dying to the switch. The spore buff helps in 40-muta switches too. With a little splash (fungal ... storm), and a few defenses (spores ... cannons) mutas can be effectively reduced in number to a force you can mop-up -- which allows your army a lot more freedom to try to apply counter-damage or secure other expansions. I still think nerfing muta regen would be a better change, but a cannon buff could work (depending upon numbers). I disagree with your reasoning. You make it sound like 2 base attacks in PvZ were designed to hinder mutas, this is not true. Accordning to your reasoning the games that P did not push on 2 base the Z would kill P with mutas, this was not the case. P handled mutas just fine in hots without 2 base pushes by utilizing blinkstalkers and Phoenix. Commonly P opened Oracle to have a stargate on hand if P needed to produce Phoenix against mutas. There were never a need to prematurely build Phoenix, it was done reactionary. In late game scenarios P added a second stargate as a safety precausion that weren't used unless Z Went for the muta switch. The two base pushs you describe here sounds like all-in pushes to me, standard two base pressure builds work in lotv but all-ins genereally don't for two reasons that you stated. - Ravagers and their ability to crush FF. - The bases run out of minerals and thus the all-in fails. Regarding lings being cheap and giving fast map-control, this is not unique to lotv, zerg has always had fast and cheap lings since wol. Regarding the economy it does not in fact effect muta builds the way that you describe, the economy does not give faster income rate to zerg (compared to terran and protoss). The races are still balanced in that regard, at least the zerg is not favored. The main reason you don't see protoss being as aggresive in PvZ anymore is because with lotv the macro edge has passed from Z to P. In hots zerg were the macro race, they were the race that could use their defensive advantage to be greedy and get an edge in a macro game. In hots zerg all-ins and pressure builds were rare, instead we got the 3 hatch before pool build. In lotv its actually the protoss that has the strong defensive advantage and the macro edge. In P knows that they can be ahead by macroing why would they pressure or all-in? They don't atm because the meta is currently that P has the advantage in a macro game. Zerg used to need to be ahead a whole base with saturation,, that happens very rarely nowadays. You can argue that it is balanced out since Z has gotten new units that are more cost efficient and that would be partly true. Zerg is more cost efficient atm but their macro position has worsened more than their efficiency has improved. Its not that 2 base pressure builds do not work, it is that protoss have no reason to properly explore those builds atm. The reason that mutas came slower or in smaller chunks during hots was because the protoss was pressuring, as you say. Through attacking and scouting they found out what was happening and had time to prepare. I think its rediculous that protoss think that they are supposed to go "fast third nexus, double robo immortal with double forge".... "oh no, he has 20 mutas, obviously I am supposed to be able to defend against these without scouting or actually doing anything else out on the map!!! Yeah, lets buff the the PC so absolutely nothing can kill me while going all out greed with Tech and upgrades!" Seriously, if you are going quick third base no pressure into rouble robo with forge and expect to be safe from all Z openings without scouting properly something is wrong. I think that the way P plays the game atm is not good. I don't Believe that P have to get ahead in macro to have a change against Z but if its true then lurker and possibly ultralisk needs to get nerfed. Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas...
You guys are both wrong. It's very simple really. Stalkers + sentries countered every unit in hots.
However in Lotv, Stalkers get shut down so hard by lurkers it's silly. So you don't see stalker based compositions anymore in every single game. That makes mutalisk more attractive because in a lot of games anti air will be limited. Which in turn gets nullified by protoss opening with lots of phoenix.
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On April 19 2016 17:47 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 19 2016 09:38 Edowyth wrote:On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now? 2-base pushes (which the Protoss did quite a bit versus Zerg in HotS) were intended to force the Zerg to invest gas into units to defend (which weakened any possible Muta switch by pre-emptively forcing the use of the gas). These kinds of 2-base pushes don't work in LotV mainly due to a few things: - Speedlings are cheap and give very fast map-control to the Zerg. They can see any Protoss ground force coming and build units as the forces move across the map. - Ravagers mean that forcefields are much less powerful. - 12-worker start gives faster access to a higher income-rate (which is the main thing required for a mutalisk switch, banked resources) - Fewer resources per base lessens the power of 2-base pushes (esp the low-value minerals which mine out super-fast, taking the wind out of all possible reinforcements to keep up pressure or try to fall back while securing a third) Not all of these things are bad. All of them do, however, contribute to the much faster capability (relatively) to tech-switch into mutalisks. Protoss, on the other hand, still has to have a mass of resources devoted into getting two stargates, production time, and investment into Phoenixes to be able to counter Mutalisks. Protoss' primary investment against a mutalisk switch is time for infrastructure.In HotS, this was more easily possible because (1) the Zerg had less gas due to the Protoss' pressure, (2) if in a really-tight spot, you could fall back to 2-base and still mine somewhat efficiently for a short time, (3) due to (1) the Mutalisks appeared in dribbles and drabs ... you could see the tech switch coming and prepare with a little bit of lee-way before there were 20+ Mutas eating probes. On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario. And that's all Protoss needs too. A better delaying tactic, so that the initial 15 or so mutas easily possible with LotV (or even 20+) can be staved off with existing forces (archons? stalkers? a couple of chrono-boosted phoenix?) and defenses which are slightly-more effective instead of simply dying to the switch. The spore buff helps in 40-muta switches too. With a little splash (fungal ... storm), and a few defenses (spores ... cannons) mutas can be effectively reduced in number to a force you can mop-up -- which allows your army a lot more freedom to try to apply counter-damage or secure other expansions. I still think nerfing muta regen would be a better change, but a cannon buff could work (depending upon numbers). I disagree with your reasoning. You make it sound like 2 base attacks in PvZ were designed to hinder mutas, this is not true. Accordning to your reasoning the games that P did not push on 2 base the Z would kill P with mutas, this was not the case. P handled mutas just fine in hots without 2 base pushes by utilizing blinkstalkers and Phoenix. Commonly P opened Oracle to have a stargate on hand if P needed to produce Phoenix against mutas. There were never a need to prematurely build Phoenix, it was done reactionary. In late game scenarios P added a second stargate as a safety precausion that weren't used unless Z Went for the muta switch. The two base pushs you describe here sounds like all-in pushes to me, standard two base pressure builds work in lotv but all-ins genereally don't for two reasons that you stated. - Ravagers and their ability to crush FF. - The bases run out of minerals and thus the all-in fails. Regarding lings being cheap and giving fast map-control, this is not unique to lotv, zerg has always had fast and cheap lings since wol. Regarding the economy it does not in fact effect muta builds the way that you describe, the economy does not give faster income rate to zerg (compared to terran and protoss). The races are still balanced in that regard, at least the zerg is not favored. The main reason you don't see protoss being as aggresive in PvZ anymore is because with lotv the macro edge has passed from Z to P. In hots zerg were the macro race, they were the race that could use their defensive advantage to be greedy and get an edge in a macro game. In hots zerg all-ins and pressure builds were rare, instead we got the 3 hatch before pool build. In lotv its actually the protoss that has the strong defensive advantage and the macro edge. In P knows that they can be ahead by macroing why would they pressure or all-in? They don't atm because the meta is currently that P has the advantage in a macro game. Zerg used to need to be ahead a whole base with saturation,, that happens very rarely nowadays. You can argue that it is balanced out since Z has gotten new units that are more cost efficient and that would be partly true. Zerg is more cost efficient atm but their macro position has worsened more than their efficiency has improved. Its not that 2 base pressure builds do not work, it is that protoss have no reason to properly explore those builds atm. The reason that mutas came slower or in smaller chunks during hots was because the protoss was pressuring, as you say. Through attacking and scouting they found out what was happening and had time to prepare. I think its rediculous that protoss think that they are supposed to go "fast third nexus, double robo immortal with double forge".... "oh no, he has 20 mutas, obviously I am supposed to be able to defend against these without scouting or actually doing anything else out on the map!!! Yeah, lets buff the the PC so absolutely nothing can kill me while going all out greed with Tech and upgrades!" Seriously, if you are going quick third base no pressure into rouble robo with forge and expect to be safe from all Z openings without scouting properly something is wrong. I think that the way P plays the game atm is not good. I don't Believe that P have to get ahead in macro to have a change against Z but if its true then lurker and possibly ultralisk needs to get nerfed. Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas... You guys are both wrong. It's very simple really. Stalkers + sentries countered every unit in hots. However in Lotv, Stalkers get shut down so hard by lurkers it's silly. So you don't see stalker based compositions anymore in every single game. That makes mutalisk more attractive because in a lot of games anti air will be limited. Which in turn gets nullified by protoss opening with lots of phoenix.
I don't really get where you are coming from. Blinkstalkers alone(or with sentries) were very rarely a late game composition. Colossus ruled PvZ in hots. Mass stalkers have never been the late game go-to composition, they have Always been a stepping stone and they still are. Even if zerg gets lurkers (which is mid-late game) blinkstalkers can stall for time and transition.
Ofc stalkers are not core every single game with adepts in the game and immortal being so powerful, this is exactly what I've been saying -_-
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adepts shoot air problem solved
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Flat 14 damage against air for stalkers would help both PvZ and PvP. Protoss has lacked good anti-air ground units since WoL day one. Buffing the cannon does nothing against a muta tech switch because mutas kill the protoss army and it's gg anyway.
Pretty much everyone agrees most air units are too strong and harassment should not be so easy. I would remove muta health regen, nerf the oracle speed and ranged prism pickup. Lower the turbo speed duration of medivacs (or remove it) and nerf phoenix speed. And ofc nerf the liberator AG range and AA damage 
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On April 19 2016 18:55 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 17:47 Comedy wrote:On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 19 2016 09:38 Edowyth wrote:On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now? 2-base pushes (which the Protoss did quite a bit versus Zerg in HotS) were intended to force the Zerg to invest gas into units to defend (which weakened any possible Muta switch by pre-emptively forcing the use of the gas). These kinds of 2-base pushes don't work in LotV mainly due to a few things: - Speedlings are cheap and give very fast map-control to the Zerg. They can see any Protoss ground force coming and build units as the forces move across the map. - Ravagers mean that forcefields are much less powerful. - 12-worker start gives faster access to a higher income-rate (which is the main thing required for a mutalisk switch, banked resources) - Fewer resources per base lessens the power of 2-base pushes (esp the low-value minerals which mine out super-fast, taking the wind out of all possible reinforcements to keep up pressure or try to fall back while securing a third) Not all of these things are bad. All of them do, however, contribute to the much faster capability (relatively) to tech-switch into mutalisks. Protoss, on the other hand, still has to have a mass of resources devoted into getting two stargates, production time, and investment into Phoenixes to be able to counter Mutalisks. Protoss' primary investment against a mutalisk switch is time for infrastructure.In HotS, this was more easily possible because (1) the Zerg had less gas due to the Protoss' pressure, (2) if in a really-tight spot, you could fall back to 2-base and still mine somewhat efficiently for a short time, (3) due to (1) the Mutalisks appeared in dribbles and drabs ... you could see the tech switch coming and prepare with a little bit of lee-way before there were 20+ Mutas eating probes. On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario. And that's all Protoss needs too. A better delaying tactic, so that the initial 15 or so mutas easily possible with LotV (or even 20+) can be staved off with existing forces (archons? stalkers? a couple of chrono-boosted phoenix?) and defenses which are slightly-more effective instead of simply dying to the switch. The spore buff helps in 40-muta switches too. With a little splash (fungal ... storm), and a few defenses (spores ... cannons) mutas can be effectively reduced in number to a force you can mop-up -- which allows your army a lot more freedom to try to apply counter-damage or secure other expansions. I still think nerfing muta regen would be a better change, but a cannon buff could work (depending upon numbers). I disagree with your reasoning. You make it sound like 2 base attacks in PvZ were designed to hinder mutas, this is not true. Accordning to your reasoning the games that P did not push on 2 base the Z would kill P with mutas, this was not the case. P handled mutas just fine in hots without 2 base pushes by utilizing blinkstalkers and Phoenix. Commonly P opened Oracle to have a stargate on hand if P needed to produce Phoenix against mutas. There were never a need to prematurely build Phoenix, it was done reactionary. In late game scenarios P added a second stargate as a safety precausion that weren't used unless Z Went for the muta switch. The two base pushs you describe here sounds like all-in pushes to me, standard two base pressure builds work in lotv but all-ins genereally don't for two reasons that you stated. - Ravagers and their ability to crush FF. - The bases run out of minerals and thus the all-in fails. Regarding lings being cheap and giving fast map-control, this is not unique to lotv, zerg has always had fast and cheap lings since wol. Regarding the economy it does not in fact effect muta builds the way that you describe, the economy does not give faster income rate to zerg (compared to terran and protoss). The races are still balanced in that regard, at least the zerg is not favored. The main reason you don't see protoss being as aggresive in PvZ anymore is because with lotv the macro edge has passed from Z to P. In hots zerg were the macro race, they were the race that could use their defensive advantage to be greedy and get an edge in a macro game. In hots zerg all-ins and pressure builds were rare, instead we got the 3 hatch before pool build. In lotv its actually the protoss that has the strong defensive advantage and the macro edge. In P knows that they can be ahead by macroing why would they pressure or all-in? They don't atm because the meta is currently that P has the advantage in a macro game. Zerg used to need to be ahead a whole base with saturation,, that happens very rarely nowadays. You can argue that it is balanced out since Z has gotten new units that are more cost efficient and that would be partly true. Zerg is more cost efficient atm but their macro position has worsened more than their efficiency has improved. Its not that 2 base pressure builds do not work, it is that protoss have no reason to properly explore those builds atm. The reason that mutas came slower or in smaller chunks during hots was because the protoss was pressuring, as you say. Through attacking and scouting they found out what was happening and had time to prepare. I think its rediculous that protoss think that they are supposed to go "fast third nexus, double robo immortal with double forge".... "oh no, he has 20 mutas, obviously I am supposed to be able to defend against these without scouting or actually doing anything else out on the map!!! Yeah, lets buff the the PC so absolutely nothing can kill me while going all out greed with Tech and upgrades!" Seriously, if you are going quick third base no pressure into rouble robo with forge and expect to be safe from all Z openings without scouting properly something is wrong. I think that the way P plays the game atm is not good. I don't Believe that P have to get ahead in macro to have a change against Z but if its true then lurker and possibly ultralisk needs to get nerfed. Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas... You guys are both wrong. It's very simple really. Stalkers + sentries countered every unit in hots. However in Lotv, Stalkers get shut down so hard by lurkers it's silly. So you don't see stalker based compositions anymore in every single game. That makes mutalisk more attractive because in a lot of games anti air will be limited. Which in turn gets nullified by protoss opening with lots of phoenix. I don't really get where you are coming from. Blinkstalkers alone(or with sentries) were very rarely a late game composition. Colossus ruled PvZ in hots. Mass stalkers have never been the late game go-to composition, they have Always been a stepping stone and they still are. Even if zerg gets lurkers (which is mid-late game) blinkstalkers can stall for time and transition. Ofc stalkers are not core every single game with adepts in the game and immortal being so powerful, this is exactly what I've been saying -_-
Comedy has it totally right.
In HotS PvZ protoss stayed on stalker/sentry based compositions for a long time. Like 3 bases 66probes 8gate long. Why? Because that comp could deal with ling/roach/hydra well enough AND could also deal with muta switches by pressuring/allining zerg of 8-10 gates mass stalker/sentry (ask Lilbow how he has won all his PvZ ever.)
Ofc if game went longer then transition would occur -> templar or colo (where colo went out of use because of more common vipers).
Fastforward to LotV and stalker/sentry army is not viable vs zerg becuase of combination of:
- introduction Ravagers and lurkers
- changes to economy
- changes to chronoboost
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On April 19 2016 04:16 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:13 Couguar wrote:
not cannons, stalkers pls. but this is right direction - less mutalisk switch power but what would the buff to stalkers be ? They already have +armored air damage which is pretty essential in fending off drops vT. Though if their anti air was changed to be +light while still doing its current damage to armored it would be an interesting move -diminishing the strenght of stargate in PvP and allowing to play blink vs mutas.
It's simple, Stalkers shouldn't have bonus damage vs Air. They should have 14 dmg vs light and armored air. This change is soooooo long overdue. Blizzard refusing to patch Stalker AA damage has made stupid bandaid solutions (Anion Pulse-Crystals...) necessary.
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On April 19 2016 19:08 Salteador Neo wrote:Pretty much everyone agrees most air units are too strong and harassment should not be so easy. I would remove muta health regen, nerf the oracle speed and ranged prism pickup. Lower the turbo speed duration of medivacs (or remove it) and nerf phoenix speed. And ofc nerf the liberator AG range and AA damage
All of this are HotS sins which I hope one day will be fixed. The unholy muta/medivac/stargate trinity
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On April 19 2016 05:57 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons. mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays). ALL Protoss units regen their shield twice faster than mutalisk ! Medivac heals bio 9 times faster than mutalisk ! And VCS can repair any mecanical units faster than mutas regen ! It's just anti-Zerg bias claming mutas regen is OP, but medivac/shield regen are fine... P/T have massive anti-air AOE with WM, Thor, liberators, storm, archons, while Mutas are much more expensive than this units ! 3 mutas more expensive than a thor, 2 mutas more than one liberator or a HT. But you want 1 shot of thor/liberator or a storm will make useless a 10-20 mutas than cost 1000/1000-2000/2000 ! It's just pure whine and anti-Zerg bias rather than a serious demand.
calling people bias and whine, when you are whining about the other races, yeah right.
all protoss units has shield to hp in the ratio of 1:2. When Protoss units take real damage, it cannot heal up to 100% like mutas.
And good luck of hitting those mutas with your storms and archons, and also thors.
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On April 19 2016 10:02 tokinho wrote:Does anyone else think it is one of the dumbest ideas, and that this suggestion came from a guy who has never ever ranked and is completely garbage as a player? SourcePlayer profile from the link. He has 210 total career games, never been ranked in 1v1 or teams. THE "COMMUNITY" IDEA IS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER PLAYED LADDER.
I don't like the idea either, but his guy might have 10k games in a different region. Since EU feedback was always missed/ignored, even years ago quite a few EU players made accounts on the NA server to take part in the discussion. Not sure this has changed.
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On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:20 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 19 2016 04:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
I also want to throw in that I am not a fan of muta regeneration (or super high in general).
ATTENTION! THIS IS OVERSIMPLIFIED:
The reason is it takes strategy out of the game. With regular units you have to calculate whether an attack is worth it or not. You are trading muta hitpoints for damage dealt to enemy economy. Muta hitpoints correspond to spent resources and time.
The question always is: Is it worth to kill X workers if I take Y damage?
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value. I'm not sure I agree with you here, cause all in all this whole reasoning could be done with spore crawlers and their buff vs Bio worked very well : it countered the mass Muta vs mass Muta meta and didn't change anything else in the game. Photo canon buff could do the same. Moreover, that way Muta keep their power in open battles where they a cool tool for zerg but far from being OP. On April 19 2016 03:50 Shuffleblade wrote:
Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on. 1- show me how they deal with them without massing phoenixes? the whole point of the debate is about allowing Protosses to stop using phoenix in every PvZ, FYI. 2 - that's not true, just look how spore crawler buff changed ZvZ. 1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now?
Of all the eco busters Chrono was nerfed the hardest. It is hardly noticeable now and what is even more important, it CAN'T stack!
In HotS you could save chrono just in case Zerg did a sudden tech switch. In the case of Mutas, you could have 2-3 Nexi with 2 chronos each, which you could use to boost Stargates like mad. You can't do that now, which makes reactionary play much, much worse. You have to blind counter Mutas, because in too many cases you can't get enough Pheonixes in time with the current Chrono. By the time you get like 4-6 Pheonixes Zerg already has like 30 Mutas...
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Muta regen should just be like half of what it is and it will all be good.
i mean. the jump was
0.2734 (WoL)
1 (HotS)/(LotV) in blizzard seconds.
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On April 19 2016 05:57 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons. mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays). ALL Protoss units regen their shield twice faster than mutalisk ! Medivac heals bio 9 times faster than mutalisk ! And VCS can repair any mecanical units faster than mutas regen ! It's just anti-Zerg bias claming mutas regen is OP, but medivac/shield regen are fine... P/T have massive anti-air AOE with WM, Thor, liberators, storm, archons, while Mutas are much more expensive than this units ! 3 mutas more expensive than a thor, 2 mutas more than one liberator or a HT. But you want 1 shot of thor/liberator or a storm will make useless a 10-20 mutas than cost 1000/1000-2000/2000 ! It's just pure whine and anti-Zerg bias rather than a serious demand.
What? Of all the units you listed, the WM is the only unit that is cheaper than a Muta....I sense a disconnect with this person and reality. Also are you completely forgetting that the mutas has splash damage itself? That is pretty heavy handed to complain about splash damage on Mutas but neglect the fact Mutas have splash damage themselves.
In addition, your Mutas are not useless if they get hit by these units. I suggest going back to WoL vods and watching muta play. Nearly all of these units existed back then and very few people thought Mutas were useless (pre-regen).
P.S. Shields are only half the Protoss health. The base health doesn't regen. Which by the way sucks in terms of upgrades, as the armor upgrades only improve half of the units health.
But here's the true problem:.A Zerg player can go mass Mutas and trade favorably against mass Stalker in a straight up fight (no lings). That is an imbalance. The Stalker, the alternative to the Phoenix, loses to Mutas across the board in nearly every criteria. The Mutalisk is a harassment unit. It should not trade favorably in straight up fights w/o support. Period. Yet it does. And that is not even factoring in Muta regen.
See the problem now?
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On April 19 2016 19:30 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 18:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 19 2016 17:47 Comedy wrote:On April 19 2016 17:36 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 19 2016 09:38 Edowyth wrote:On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now? 2-base pushes (which the Protoss did quite a bit versus Zerg in HotS) were intended to force the Zerg to invest gas into units to defend (which weakened any possible Muta switch by pre-emptively forcing the use of the gas). These kinds of 2-base pushes don't work in LotV mainly due to a few things: - Speedlings are cheap and give very fast map-control to the Zerg. They can see any Protoss ground force coming and build units as the forces move across the map. - Ravagers mean that forcefields are much less powerful. - 12-worker start gives faster access to a higher income-rate (which is the main thing required for a mutalisk switch, banked resources) - Fewer resources per base lessens the power of 2-base pushes (esp the low-value minerals which mine out super-fast, taking the wind out of all possible reinforcements to keep up pressure or try to fall back while securing a third) Not all of these things are bad. All of them do, however, contribute to the much faster capability (relatively) to tech-switch into mutalisks. Protoss, on the other hand, still has to have a mass of resources devoted into getting two stargates, production time, and investment into Phoenixes to be able to counter Mutalisks. Protoss' primary investment against a mutalisk switch is time for infrastructure.In HotS, this was more easily possible because (1) the Zerg had less gas due to the Protoss' pressure, (2) if in a really-tight spot, you could fall back to 2-base and still mine somewhat efficiently for a short time, (3) due to (1) the Mutalisks appeared in dribbles and drabs ... you could see the tech switch coming and prepare with a little bit of lee-way before there were 20+ Mutas eating probes. On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario. And that's all Protoss needs too. A better delaying tactic, so that the initial 15 or so mutas easily possible with LotV (or even 20+) can be staved off with existing forces (archons? stalkers? a couple of chrono-boosted phoenix?) and defenses which are slightly-more effective instead of simply dying to the switch. The spore buff helps in 40-muta switches too. With a little splash (fungal ... storm), and a few defenses (spores ... cannons) mutas can be effectively reduced in number to a force you can mop-up -- which allows your army a lot more freedom to try to apply counter-damage or secure other expansions. I still think nerfing muta regen would be a better change, but a cannon buff could work (depending upon numbers). I disagree with your reasoning. You make it sound like 2 base attacks in PvZ were designed to hinder mutas, this is not true. Accordning to your reasoning the games that P did not push on 2 base the Z would kill P with mutas, this was not the case. P handled mutas just fine in hots without 2 base pushes by utilizing blinkstalkers and Phoenix. Commonly P opened Oracle to have a stargate on hand if P needed to produce Phoenix against mutas. There were never a need to prematurely build Phoenix, it was done reactionary. In late game scenarios P added a second stargate as a safety precausion that weren't used unless Z Went for the muta switch. The two base pushs you describe here sounds like all-in pushes to me, standard two base pressure builds work in lotv but all-ins genereally don't for two reasons that you stated. - Ravagers and their ability to crush FF. - The bases run out of minerals and thus the all-in fails. Regarding lings being cheap and giving fast map-control, this is not unique to lotv, zerg has always had fast and cheap lings since wol. Regarding the economy it does not in fact effect muta builds the way that you describe, the economy does not give faster income rate to zerg (compared to terran and protoss). The races are still balanced in that regard, at least the zerg is not favored. The main reason you don't see protoss being as aggresive in PvZ anymore is because with lotv the macro edge has passed from Z to P. In hots zerg were the macro race, they were the race that could use their defensive advantage to be greedy and get an edge in a macro game. In hots zerg all-ins and pressure builds were rare, instead we got the 3 hatch before pool build. In lotv its actually the protoss that has the strong defensive advantage and the macro edge. In P knows that they can be ahead by macroing why would they pressure or all-in? They don't atm because the meta is currently that P has the advantage in a macro game. Zerg used to need to be ahead a whole base with saturation,, that happens very rarely nowadays. You can argue that it is balanced out since Z has gotten new units that are more cost efficient and that would be partly true. Zerg is more cost efficient atm but their macro position has worsened more than their efficiency has improved. Its not that 2 base pressure builds do not work, it is that protoss have no reason to properly explore those builds atm. The reason that mutas came slower or in smaller chunks during hots was because the protoss was pressuring, as you say. Through attacking and scouting they found out what was happening and had time to prepare. I think its rediculous that protoss think that they are supposed to go "fast third nexus, double robo immortal with double forge".... "oh no, he has 20 mutas, obviously I am supposed to be able to defend against these without scouting or actually doing anything else out on the map!!! Yeah, lets buff the the PC so absolutely nothing can kill me while going all out greed with Tech and upgrades!" Seriously, if you are going quick third base no pressure into rouble robo with forge and expect to be safe from all Z openings without scouting properly something is wrong. I think that the way P plays the game atm is not good. I don't Believe that P have to get ahead in macro to have a change against Z but if its true then lurker and possibly ultralisk needs to get nerfed. Its the builds that P goes for that is the problem, not mutas or anything else. P builds adepts and immortals and for some reason those two units are weak against mutas... You guys are both wrong. It's very simple really. Stalkers + sentries countered every unit in hots. However in Lotv, Stalkers get shut down so hard by lurkers it's silly. So you don't see stalker based compositions anymore in every single game. That makes mutalisk more attractive because in a lot of games anti air will be limited. Which in turn gets nullified by protoss opening with lots of phoenix. I don't really get where you are coming from. Blinkstalkers alone(or with sentries) were very rarely a late game composition. Colossus ruled PvZ in hots. Mass stalkers have never been the late game go-to composition, they have Always been a stepping stone and they still are. Even if zerg gets lurkers (which is mid-late game) blinkstalkers can stall for time and transition. Ofc stalkers are not core every single game with adepts in the game and immortal being so powerful, this is exactly what I've been saying -_- Comedy has it totally right. In HotS PvZ protoss stayed on stalker/sentry based compositions for a long time. Like 3 bases 66probes 8gate long. Why? Because that comp could deal with ling/roach/hydra well enough AND could also deal with muta switches by pressuring/allining zerg of 8-10 gates mass stalker/sentry (ask Lilbow how he has won all his PvZ ever.) Ofc if game went longer then transition would occur -> templar or colo (where colo went out of use because of more common vipers). Fastforward to LotV and stalker/sentry army is not viable vs zerg becuase of combination of: - introduction Ravagers and lurkers - changes to economy - changes to chronoboost
Yep, this compo (stalkers blink/sentry) was responding very effectively to any agression that the zergs can pull off in the mid game and had an invicible late game after the nerf of the SH, I really fell it was a great imbalance but almost no one complain about it so I can be wrong but it seems there is a lot of protoss biais in TL, I mean, toss were whining a LOT even before Lotv was released or even the meta was stable...
Right now, the centry are almost useless against the ravagers (making Ling/bane viable in the MU!) and so, the efficienty of stalker blink drop off. Moreover, as it has been said, the lurker is a very good counter to blink stalker and must be counter with Immortal/archon/chargelot in addition of stalker blink which makes the muta switch viable without pheonix however such a compo should totally destroy the zerg ground army and the bases while a defense can be done on one protoss base with MSC/pylone canon and some warp of archon, in the current state of the game, I don't feel like trade base are an automatically loss for the toss but I guess I can be wrong.
However, I am pretty sure that Pheonix are not mainly used to prevent such a switch, the pylone defense, the mass archon are pretty standarts right now and in mid game, this is pretty hard to pull off such a strat as a zerg unless you have a massive lead. From my perspective, Pheonix are used because:
_ It counters the drop in early game
_ It can be easely produced and is a very effective harass tool
_ The push of the zerg in the B3 or the b4 is defended with the help of the pylone canons but the retreat of the zerg unit are nullify with the lift of the pheonix which is extremely efficient.
_ It zones the zerg army consistently and a good toss will have a very good view of what's going on on the zerg base during the first harass sequences in which the loss of a pheonix is only dependant of the protoss skill and not the zerg. (it's the reason why I will always prefer the harass Tools of Terran which involve micro from both side that this sort of harass who depend of only one player and not the other, I know people think that the pheonix is the best designed harass unit the seriously, this is the worst and by a large margin!)
So I am really skeptical concerning the position of Harstem and Huk despite their pro statut.
I rarely see big muta switch in pro match or pro stream and, it is rarely effective except maybe when the zerg can afford viper but this is such a heavy investisment in gaz.
To conlude, my two cents:
1) The opening pheonix are good to counter a muta opening or even a muta switch but this is not the primary reason of their use, so I am pretty sure that this canon buff won't resolve the problem of the opening of the toss. The pheonix compo will still be almost a must-have in the MU despite a nerf of the mutas ball because it has a great diversity of use who counters a lot more zerg strategy than just the mutas based compo.
2) I am not sure that mutas switch are not the reason of an imbalance in the MU and even in term of design, I fail to see it as a main problem in the MU. (ravagers and tempest seem a way bigger concern for the state of the mu but when I read that DK considers a SH buff, I guess there is not hope to have)
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On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc).
I don't disagree but then you must ask why were mutalisks given regen in the first place?
Let me give the answer: Without muta regen Z was unable to build anything in that playstyle that can overcome t1 unit spamming of terran. Lings and baleings are just cannon fodder and usually die in fights, mutas were too before they had regen.
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On April 19 2016 21:19 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). I don't disagree but then you must ask why were mutalisks given regen in the first place?
because micro. Unfortunately fast regeneration also leads to snowball.
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Because in WoL a single thor would splash the mutas and there wouldn't be any harrass from mutas for the next minute or two.
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Oh yissss... Another balance fixing band aid... Let's not look into design people, nothing to see here.
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On April 19 2016 10:02 tokinho wrote:Does anyone else think it is one of the dumbest ideas, and that this suggestion came from a guy who has never ever ranked and is completely garbage as a player? SourcePlayer profile from the link. He has 210 total career games, never been ranked in 1v1 or teams. THE "COMMUNITY" IDEA IS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER PLAYED LADDER.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Xtc5hGz.png)
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On April 19 2016 20:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 05:57 Tyrhanius wrote:On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons. mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays). ALL Protoss units regen their shield twice faster than mutalisk ! Medivac heals bio 9 times faster than mutalisk ! And VCS can repair any mecanical units faster than mutas regen ! It's just anti-Zerg bias claming mutas regen is OP, but medivac/shield regen are fine... P/T have massive anti-air AOE with WM, Thor, liberators, storm, archons, while Mutas are much more expensive than this units ! 3 mutas more expensive than a thor, 2 mutas more than one liberator or a HT. But you want 1 shot of thor/liberator or a storm will make useless a 10-20 mutas than cost 1000/1000-2000/2000 ! It's just pure whine and anti-Zerg bias rather than a serious demand. But here's the true problem:.A Zerg player can go mass Mutas and trade favorably against mass Stalker in a straight up fight (no lings). That is an imbalance. The Stalker, the alternative to the Phoenix, loses to Mutas across the board in nearly every criteria. The Mutalisk is a harassment unit. It should not trade favorably in straight up fights w/o support. Period. Yet it does. And that is not even factoring in Muta regen. See the problem now?
So the problem is that in straigh up engagement, stalkers lose against Mutas? I disagree:
1) With good micro, except if the engagement is in a narrow space, blink stalkers should win just because they have better ups than the muta
2) They are cheaper than the mutas which are T2 unit coming after a long tech (spire...) and can be cost efficient only when they are 10 at the very least so it is not like the zerg pop out a mutas ball easely
3) Stalkers is designed as a very versatile unit so they are not a hardcounter to muta but a softcounter which can be efficient with good micro or support units (sentry, archon, phoenix)
4) Finally, talking about balance with just an unit vs unit example has never been meaningful, the AA zerg unit, the corrupter gets rekt by void ray, skytoss, blabla. (even if skytoss could be op, this argument would still be invalid)
So maybe mutas regenerate too much but their overall stats are correct, I do not see a problem in this aspect.
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EPT
