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On April 19 2016 08:21 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 08:09 DonDomingo wrote:On April 19 2016 08:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On April 19 2016 08:06 DonDomingo wrote:
Are there actually Protoss players who would not want to open Phoenixes?
Rewards good mechanics
Allows good scouting lessing randomness
What's not to like? Apparently there are some Oh, sorry for not specifying, I meant actual players, not foreigners :D Everybody's word is important, that's why you are allowed to give your opinions  I think it safe to say that most Protoss players complain about this, whatever their country or their level, simply because having only one option, even if it's a strong one, is not good in the long run. To have a healthy meta, we need variety of strats, that's why phoenix into PICA in every PvZ game is bad and tankivacs marine mirror in every TvT is bad too. (To be fair, we had Dear doing disruptor drop openings vs Losira, but he always ended up with PICA in mid/late game) edit : typos
I didn't offer any opinions :D Only facts and a question.
Guess some viewers and players like variety. Personally, I dont mind seeing the same compositions and openings over and over. I appreciate watching good execution and clever suble build deviations.
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On April 19 2016 08:28 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Muta regen, oracle speed and mediboost = the unholy trinity that made HotS mostly a disaster. I'll never miss an opportunity to state how harmful those things have been for the game. As for my comment I try to think like David Kim and try to achieve more diversity and I don't think this will do the trick. It's even worse than that if phoenix weren't needed in the current state of the game if I am to believe HuK's tweet : all P want to do is pump out immortals all game long...
I think one of the biggest design flaws from HotS is the notion that being a fun unit justifies it having much more power. Medivac Boost is probably the biggest offender of this. Muta buff, Mothership Core, Phoenix speed was all changed because of this.
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On April 19 2016 04:20 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
I also want to throw in that I am not a fan of muta regeneration (or super high in general).
ATTENTION! THIS IS OVERSIMPLIFIED:
The reason is it takes strategy out of the game. With regular units you have to calculate whether an attack is worth it or not. You are trading muta hitpoints for damage dealt to enemy economy. Muta hitpoints correspond to spent resources and time.
The question always is: Is it worth to kill X workers if I take Y damage?
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value. I'm not sure I agree with you here, cause all in all this whole reasoning could be done with spore crawlers and their buff vs Bio worked very well : it countered the mass Muta vs mass Muta meta and didn't change anything else in the game. Photo canon buff could do the same. Moreover, that way Muta keep their power in open battles where they a cool tool for zerg but far from being OP. Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:50 Shuffleblade wrote:
Erm mutas already have a niche and rare spot in ZvP as it stands. Protoss have gotten just more and more effective ways to deal with them, nerfing them even more in the matchup seems unjustified to me.
Btw I find it hilarious that they think cannon buff is going to help against mass muta switches.... Thats just stupid, even if the P builds 6 cannons at each base 40 mutas roflstomp it, probably not losing a single one unless the cannons are lucky with their shots or the cannons are very close together. That would not effect the matchup much besides making it even more stupid to open muta in zvp and overlord drops would also be easier to defend.
Protoss does not need stronger defense, come on. 1- show me how they deal with them without massing phoenixes? the whole point of the debate is about allowing Protosses to stop using phoenix in every PvZ, FYI. 2 - that's not true, just look how spore crawler buff changed ZvZ.
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now? The answer is they didn't, no P opens phoenix because they are afraid of dying to mutas.
They open phoenix because their prefered build are weak to mutas so they need the phoenix to cover their weakness. Let me explain, Protoss wants fast three base into double robo immortal. Why does protoss want this? Because atm immortal is OP (or every other protoss unit is underpowered), every P wants immortals, many and fast.
So tell me, what is greedy build into double robo immortal production weak to? "ding dong" correct, mutas. So the answer to this is actually pretty simple, address the fact that every protoss builds immortals and the second "problem" of every protoss going stargate will solve itself.
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario. It changed the early game builds, which is exactly what I said that a cannon buff would do as well. In the spore crawler buff scenario, mutas were an overwhelmingly common strategy. 2 base builds mostly, they rushed them out. Buffing the sc to address early game muta builds is 100% logical and it worked.
Buffing pc to discourage late game massive tech-switch into mutas, not so much. You should read the inital post it seems you don't understand the difference between addressing an early game problem and a late game problem. A small tweak like this effects the early game, the less mutas we are talking about the greater the effect, but when we are talking massive techswitch its a effect is close to nil.
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On April 19 2016 08:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Apparently there are some
I doubt there are many people who would rather see the same builds forever over the option of seeing multiple kinds of builds, openings, mid-games and the like -- so that strategic players can choose to approach the game from more than just the narrowest of angles (which are properly termed tactics).
Phoenix openers will always exist. They're very good.
It'd be nice if they weren't the only reliable way to play macro PvZ. Diversity increases strategy. Honestly, I can't see why anyone'd theoretically be against phoenix seeing less play in PvZ. For that to be the case, though, there's going to have to be either a nerf to mutas or a buff to something Protoss.
Mutas are simply too much of a threat otherwise.
P.S. I doubt that Harstem was being serious ... the extremely long period of opening phoenix in every match-up, though, would certainly get most (foreigner) players playing around with non-phoenix openers if there were even a hint that such a thing might not put you irrevocably behind a Zerg opponent. Koreans might take longer (because they're best at practicing a thing until they can do it nearly perfectly), but a switch would happen there too: simply for surprise openings, if for no other reason.
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It's worrying that blizzard needs feedback to recognize that protoss always opens phoenix because of mutas.
Like they don't understand their own game.
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On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
1.The entirely of hots P handled mutas without "massing phoenix", how did lotv buff mutas so hard that every protoss have to blind counter them now?
2-base pushes (which the Protoss did quite a bit versus Zerg in HotS) were intended to force the Zerg to invest gas into units to defend (which weakened any possible Muta switch by pre-emptively forcing the use of the gas). These kinds of 2-base pushes don't work in LotV mainly due to a few things:
- Speedlings are cheap and give very fast map-control to the Zerg. They can see any Protoss ground force coming and build units as the forces move across the map.
- Ravagers mean that forcefields are much less powerful.
- 12-worker start gives faster access to a higher income-rate (which is the main thing required for a mutalisk switch, banked resources)
- Fewer resources per base lessens the power of 2-base pushes (esp the low-value minerals which mine out super-fast, taking the wind out of all possible reinforcements to keep up pressure or try to fall back while securing a third)
Not all of these things are bad. All of them do, however, contribute to the much faster capability (relatively) to tech-switch into mutalisks.
Protoss, on the other hand, still has to have a mass of resources devoted into getting two stargates, production time, and investment into Phoenixes to be able to counter Mutalisks. Protoss' primary investment against a mutalisk switch is time for infrastructure.
In HotS, this was more easily possible because (1) the Zerg had less gas due to the Protoss' pressure, (2) if in a really-tight spot, you could fall back to 2-base and still mine somewhat efficiently for a short time, (3) due to (1) the Mutalisks appeared in dribbles and drabs ... you could see the tech switch coming and prepare with a little bit of lee-way before there were 20+ Mutas eating probes.
On April 19 2016 09:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
2. Dude, the spore crawler change didn't change late game 40 mutas scenario.
And that's all Protoss needs too. A better delaying tactic, so that the initial 15 or so mutas easily possible with LotV (or even 20+) can be staved off with existing forces (archons? stalkers? a couple of chrono-boosted phoenix?) and defenses which are slightly-more effective instead of simply dying to the switch.
The spore buff helps in 40-muta switches too. With a little splash (fungal ... storm), and a few defenses (spores ... cannons) mutas can be effectively reduced in number to a force you can mop-up -- which allows your army a lot more freedom to try to apply counter-damage or secure other expansions.
I still think nerfing muta regen would be a better change, but a cannon buff could work (depending upon numbers).
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On April 19 2016 07:32 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). Have to agree with this one. Mutalisks didn´t need more speed or regeneration and only made this Unit stupid and more annoying as it already is. Running back and forth between point A and B just to catch Units is not fun its frustating. But they did this with a couple of other Units that were actually good as they were which didn´t need it like Oracles and Medivacs (Altough Aenion Crystals was before HotS). Stop this bandaiding.
You're wrong. Killing workers is the coolest thing in the game.
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Does anyone else think it is one of the dumbest ideas, and that this suggestion came from a guy who has never ever ranked and is completely garbage as a player? Source
Player profile from the link.
He has 210 total career games, never been ranked in 1v1 or teams. THE "COMMUNITY" IDEA IS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER PLAYED LADDER.
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Make muta regen a hive level buff.
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Buff everything! that seems to work.
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Well Muta regen is one issue, which took away the viability of HT + Stalkers to deal with mutas (which was IMO a way more interesting playstyle). Protoss' dismal AA options is the other issue as they have the lowest DPS defensive structure and lowest DPS (and particularly DPS/cost) AtG unit. While you could change Stalker AA damage, you'd have to pair that with a corresponding nerf. Personally, I've been advocating buffing Stalker DPS overall and nerfing their health and turn them into more a "sniper" type of unit.
I do think AA damage of the Photon Cannon should be buffed from a design perspective, as they are woefully bad at deterring air attacks, and then things adjusted around that. But given Blizz has already flat out said they are taking more or less a bandaid approach to balance I think this +bio AA damage is the best we can hope for.
I also think people seriously overestimate how pervasive Stargate openers will be if adequate alternatives to deal with Mutas are introduced. It may still be the most popular tech opener, but any deviation from 100% stargate will open up build diversity not only on Protoss' side, but also on Zerg's side since Zerg is more of a reactionary race.
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Mutalisk are utter garbage in zvp why would they even bother to nerf them? Phoneix opener is so good, thats the fact. Protoss are not forced to do it because of muta, they are doing it because it makes protoss start ahead of zerg unlike other openings. Making phoneix guarantees you AT LEAST 5 drone + 1 Queen kill + 6 forced spores + map control, etc.. On the other hand, if a zerg player decides to make mutas, he won't able to kill not even a single probe most likely and will lose the game to the first incoming push.
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and no one realizes that this bandaid would doom SC2 to a level of "only cannon rush" games?
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David Kim spends too much time reading the feedback of low level players on reddit.
He doesn't appear to play or watch a whole lot, I'd be willing to bet he only watches GSL and the occasional proleague match if he is notified something unusual occured and then the major tournaments outside of Korea.
If he would spend time playing the game or watching the daily tournaments closely he'd have a much better grasp of the what the current meta is.
If you read every single reddit comment, then yes, his suggestions at times makes sense because a lot of people who don't have a clue bring up weird points about the game which affects them at the gold or platinum level, but the truth is, those people are bad. if you start balancing the game for people who are bad, you are almost always also affecting the upper skill levels in a bad way.
If the game is too unforgiving and frustating and not fun for bad players, because you implemented gimmicky units, unforgiving gameplay and insane harass that can turn the tide of a game in a second, then that's a design problem. If you want to make those people happy & enjoy their time playing make DESIGN changes, do not make balance changes or tweak numbers to bandaid this core problem.
This change is ridiculous. Muta is a very one off chance that might work in a very small number of PvZ's in which Zerg was lucky enough to snipe all the phoenix, and catch protoss off guard while he let the Zerg build a big enough bank for the muta switch to be big enough to do something as soon as it hits the field.
This can be usefull in the phase of the game where there are 10+ immortals on the field and ground compositions dont really have a chance anymore vs the protoss army, so I think it's good. It doesn't need a change. Protoss doesn't need a buff to cannon AA.
If you buff cannon AA you are also buffing late game tempest/cannon/oracle/templar turtle/camp styles which are already impossible to beat if Zerg doesn't shut down protoss before it's too late.
Something has to change at the core of how David Kim operates and judges feedback about his game, he should start playing more but if that's not realistic, at least WATCH daily tournaments, get a twitter account and keep in touch with your game. The guy is so removed from the actual community of people who invest a lot of time into SC...
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The problem with PvZ was never the phoenix. The problem is mass 2x robo immortals...a play which just so happens to be weak to a midgame muta switch...
Lack of build diversity right now is due to the fact that immortals are just too damn strong and immortal archon outshines everything else...and thank the heavens that P haven't started making a carrier late game the standard yet...
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I think there needs to be a clear distinction drawn between balance changes and game design type changes. Clearly this would fall in the latter. I would argue that it's better and easier to design a good game and then worry about balance than the other way around.
The +bio damage on cannon AA attack is a perfect example of this. There must come a point where as a game designer you realize it's going to be better to actually tackle the main issue (Mutas) rather than try to fix issues around it with +bio damage on Spores and now Cannons. In fact, this couldn't be a better time to revisit this since they are also tinkering with the Thor's (and possibly Liberator's) role in the whole AA equation.
Also why have such a cautious philosophy on a balance test map? This type of environment should be for more wild experimentation! I would LOVE if D. Kim actually had some balls to do more drastic balance changes that shakes up the meta, say between seasons (look at Ice Frog w/ DotA for example).
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On April 19 2016 04:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value.
Same goes for medivacs or repair, both could be easily fixed by medivacs only healing marines _inside_ the medivac and repair inactivating the repaired unit or building while being repaired (same for transfuse btw).
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That will also be a nerf to corruptors, better make it "vs mutalisks" photon cannon buff.
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On April 19 2016 09:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 07:32 Tresher wrote:On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). Have to agree with this one. Mutalisks didn´t need more speed or regeneration and only made this Unit stupid and more annoying as it already is. Running back and forth between point A and B just to catch Units is not fun its frustating. But they did this with a couple of other Units that were actually good as they were which didn´t need it like Oracles and Medivacs (Altough Aenion Crystals was before HotS). Stop this bandaiding. You're wrong. Killing workers is the coolest thing in the game.
You guys should make a note when you are sarcastic. But according to David Kim it is true  .
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EPT
