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On April 19 2016 04:20 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
I also want to throw in that I am not a fan of muta regeneration (or super high in general).
ATTENTION! THIS IS OVERSIMPLIFIED:
The reason is it takes strategy out of the game. With regular units you have to calculate whether an attack is worth it or not. You are trading muta hitpoints for damage dealt to enemy economy. Muta hitpoints correspond to spent resources and time.
The question always is: Is it worth to kill X workers if I take Y damage?
But with super high regeneration you dont lose anything. Attacking is the default option and there is no thinking process. Every time you are not attacking (other then to regen) you are losing value. I'm not sure I agree with you here, cause all in all this whole reasoning could be done with spore crawlers and their buff vs Bio worked very well : it countered the mass Muta vs mass Muta meta and didn't change anything else in the game. Photo canon buff could do the same.
But thats not damage. Damage done to mutas is worthless because of the regen. You have to kill them because if not you are doing no damage at all.
Its an all or nothing situation. You either kill them or you dont even deal any damage to them at all. Its the same thing that happened to SC2 all over the place: All-Or-Nothing, All-Or-Nothing, All-Or-Nothing, All-Or-Nothing...
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On April 19 2016 04:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
2 - that's not true, just look how spore crawler buff changed ZvZ.
This, 1000x this. You guys mistake the goal here, the same problem so many have with the widow mine. This change would NOT be to have cannons always kill all the muta's. Its to slow the muta player down so that his opponent can respond. Better cannons means the muta player either has to mass muta's before fighting, which gives time for the protoss to tech to pheonix, or it gives a solid defenders advantage to the blink stalkers/templar/etc.
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On April 19 2016 04:29 Draddition wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
2 - that's not true, just look how spore crawler buff changed ZvZ.
This, 1000x this. You guys mistake the goal here, the same problem so many have with the widow mine. This change would NOT be to have cannons always kill all the muta's. Its to slow the muta player down so that his opponent can respond. Better cannons means the muta player either has to mass muta's before fighting, which gives time for the protoss to tech to pheonix, or it gives a solid defenders advantage to the blink stalkers/templar/etc.
I fear the end result would be that :
1- P will still play the same style all over again, with or without phoenix (even if I didn't fear muta switches I would open phoenix every game because of the harass possibilities and the scouting opportunities) ;
2- no PvZ will ever see a muta again.
So overall I don't think this is a sensible change -you even lose some variety in the end, even if muta switches are already pretty rare- if you don't combine it with changes to immortals for instance.
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Okay, so realistically, why would you not still go double stargate phoenix every game? Does buffing cannons against mutas actually change the fact that opening phoenix is the most safe thing a Protoss can do against Zerg without sacrificing too much economy? Does it change how good phoenixes are? All it does is make mutas a dead unit in the matchup.
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I am in utter disbelief. The zergs complain that they can't win in the late game, and we get rid of the possibility to base race with op cannons, as if recall wasn't enough ???
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Wait... Mutas are a problem in PvZ? Since when? Must be at the highest level.. oh wait there aren't any zergs left in GSL because they all got roflstomped. Should have used Mutas tsk tsk. But no seriously, is photon overcharge, recall, blink, storm, and phoenix range not enough? How behind are you that Zerg can just drop that many mutas on you like that?
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On April 19 2016 04:37 Elentos wrote:
Okay, so realistically, why would you not still go double stargate phoenix every game? Does buffing cannons against mutas actually change the fact that opening phoenix is the most safe thing a Protoss can do against Zerg without sacrificing too much economy? Does it change how good phoenixes are? All it does is make mutas a dead unit in the matchup.
yeah makes no sense to me either.
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Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh
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On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc).
lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons.
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On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh
Protoss has turned to going phoenix into double robo chargelot/immortal every single game against Zerg, which is boring to play, play against and watch.
On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons.
It's pretty horrible because it doesn't give Protoss an actual reason to open with something other than phoenixes. It misses the point of what they want to do and doesn't really improve the matchup as it is right now.
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On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh
I think they didn't understand the feedback about variety right. I'm pretty sure most people are ok with most P players opening phoenix -that was the case in early HotS and everyone was happy with it. The thing people are not ok with is -correct me if I'm wrong- seeing P players go double robo chargelot archon immortal out of it every game and winning if the Z doesn't manage to somehow get brood lords. If anything give Z tools to fight that composition, but the proposed change really seems irrelevant to me and serves no purpose other than definitely killing mutas in PvZ.
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On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh
Static defense was much much stronger in BW and it did NOT encourage turtling or low APM play. Static defense being strong has nothing to do with that. Its just the way SC2 is designed.
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I don't see how this will stop Protoss from opening stargate into pheonix. Afterall, they can scout, harrass, defend against early roach ravager pushes, support fights and lift lurkers. We no longer see muta switches anymore unless the Zerg is so far ahead he can just remax on anything. Having the infrastructure to defend against muta or broodlord switch is just the icing on the cake. This buff only makes sense if blizzard is planning to nerf the pheonix or some other protoss unit or ability.
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On April 19 2016 04:52 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 03:43 Jonsoload wrote:We saw the feedback/suggestion last weekend that Protoss having to commit to Phoenix due to the Mutalisk switch threat. There were many well reasoned out discussions around this, so we thought it would be good to start testing a change here in the next balance test map.
Of the couple suggestions that we saw most of, we believe that increasing the Photon Cannon AA damage vs. bio would be the best change. This would be such a small change that only affects the PvZ matchup. Source: us.battle.net Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). lol what? You remove Muta regen Mutalisks are going to suck in all match ups. I also don't think it's a "horrible" bandaid solution. Although I think Stalkers should get an AA buff instead of cannons.
mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen.
The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays).
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On April 19 2016 04:52 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh Protoss has turned to going phoenix into double robo chargelot/immortal every single game against Zerg, which is boring to play, play against and watch.
But would you agree that the problematic part is the "into", not the actual phoenix openers ? If P opened phoenix every game but had a variety of viable transitions I'm pretty sure no one would be complaining.
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It sounds like to me that the trouble is that protoss has a single very effective build that defends everything pass the cheesy point of the game and deals enough harrass damage, transitioning into winning the game. Kinda like WoL Infester broodlord period ZvT.
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55566 Posts
On April 19 2016 04:59 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:52 Elentos wrote:On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh Protoss has turned to going phoenix into double robo chargelot/immortal every single game against Zerg, which is boring to play, play against and watch. But would you agree that the problematic part is the "into", not the actual phoenix openers ? If P opened phoenix every game but had a variety of viable transitions I'm pretty sure no one would be complaining.
I think it would help if there was an alternative if you want to go into macro play. I guess variety for the followup would help a good deal already.
I'm not terrbily optimistic about the state of Zerg in ZvP lategame though, if Protoss gets more options that could get problematic.
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On April 19 2016 05:04 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 04:59 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 Elentos wrote:On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh Protoss has turned to going phoenix into double robo chargelot/immortal every single game against Zerg, which is boring to play, play against and watch. But would you agree that the problematic part is the "into", not the actual phoenix openers ? If P opened phoenix every game but had a variety of viable transitions I'm pretty sure no one would be complaining. I think it would help if there was an alternative if you want to go into macro play. I guess variety for the followup would help a good deal already. I'm not terrbily optimistic about the state of Zerg in ZvP lategame though, if Protoss gets more options that could get problematic.
What I fail to understand is that even if mutas were nerfed to the ground, it doesn't change the fact that opening phoenix is very safe, all-around and strong. So I'm unsure this move will really change the situation. As I said before I would still go phoenix every game even if mutas didn't exist.
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On April 19 2016 03:54 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 03:54 Incognoto wrote:
WOAH HEY that nerfs Terran drops as well. no (+ AA bio) -unless you lift the bio units with phoenix into cannon range ha ha ha 
oh AA!!
anti-air!!
lol ok i misunderstood
this is like the definition of a useless bandaid. :/
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55566 Posts
On April 19 2016 05:15 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2016 05:04 Elentos wrote:On April 19 2016 04:59 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2016 04:52 Elentos wrote:On April 19 2016 04:50 crbox wrote:
Rofl this is the worst solution ever. Static defense in sc2 is so ridiculously strong, it encourages low skill turtle, low apm play, and there's no swarm or anything to nullify them (well vipers, but it's just not convenient)...
What's wrong with going phoenixes? They're great, mobile units which require some sort of skill to use. You had to go 'sairs in PvZ to avoid being steamrolled by mutas in BW, seems to me it's the same principle, carried over from the greatest RTS of all time.
I don't see the issue of going phoenix tbh Protoss has turned to going phoenix into double robo chargelot/immortal every single game against Zerg, which is boring to play, play against and watch. But would you agree that the problematic part is the "into", not the actual phoenix openers ? If P opened phoenix every game but had a variety of viable transitions I'm pretty sure no one would be complaining. I think it would help if there was an alternative if you want to go into macro play. I guess variety for the followup would help a good deal already. I'm not terrbily optimistic about the state of Zerg in ZvP lategame though, if Protoss gets more options that could get problematic. What I fail to understand is that even if mutas were nerfed to the ground, it doesn't change the fact that opening phoenix is very safe, all-around and strong. So I'm unsure this move will really change the situation. As I said before I would still go phoenix every game even if mutas didn't exist.
I'm in the same boat. I mean, I don't main Protoss so my firsthand experience is shaky at best, but from that and the pro games I watched, I don't really see why you wouldn't go phoenix if you want to play a macro game.
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EPT
