EPT[Blizz] PvZ Mutalisk Suggestion - Page 3
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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beheamoth
44 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
On April 19 2016 05:47 FeyFey wrote: wow thats awesome, I can lift Zerg units for extra damage near cannons. Even more reason to go Phoenix ! ha ha ha that's actually a good point  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 19 2016 05:47 FeyFey wrote: wow thats awesome, I can lift Zerg units for extra damage near cannons. Even more reason to go Phoenix ! Imagine the drop defense in PvZ, ovies die super fast and what survive will be lifted into cannons!  | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
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Elentos
55554 Posts
On April 19 2016 05:50 deacon.frost wrote: Imagine the drop defense in PvZ, ovies die super fast and what survive will be lifted into cannons! I mean, really, this is an improvement in every matchup. Marines? Bio. Marauders? Bio. Zealots? Bio. Adepts? Bio. DTs? Bio. Phoenix/cannon new meta Now all that's left is to make the Artosis prophecy come true and give phoenixes the ability to help each other lift heavier things. 20 phoenixes can fly away with a hatchery. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9403 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
The issue isn't that mutas are a problem, its that stargate is blatantly the better option for the protoss because mutas CAN BE the problem | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On April 19 2016 03:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: Horrible bandaid suggestion. Do what is long overdue and get rid of muta regen and all the stupidities it forced (spore +bio damage, anion pulse crystals, liberators aoe etc). Personally, I don't think they can get rid of muta regen because of the potential for things like WMs and Turrets to simply be too effective. A nerf to 0.8 hp / HotS second (from the current 1.0) or even 0.6 or 0.7 would vastly improve the effective damage taken by mutalisks from AoE (and even normal) attacks ... which would vastly open upon counter-options in PvZ especially. I dislike the change to cannons because it's yet another soft-counter to a problem-matic ability (insane muta-regen). And yet, it would, I feel, open up PvZ. Because, just like in HotS and WoL, having more units is generally better than having a very few phoenix with limited energy versus all-ins or pressure builds. While, yes, Phoenix openers would still exist and, due to the current meta, probably be prevalent for a while ... other things could be safe, and thus Protoss players would use them if for nothing else than the surprise factor and, thus, increased chance to win versus an opponent. I mean, Protoss used to open soul-train versus zergs all the time. That'd be a hell of a build in LotV versus bane-rain builds, with well-spread sentries and good placement of forcefields. A mass of stalkers to force even more speedlings, and investment (not just larva, but also actual gas) into defenses early could be a solid transition to a mid-game. Everything that you'd normally be getting ground forces with (and thus forges for upgrades) would naturally be slightly buffed in the early-game with a change to cannons. I dislike the buff from a design standpoint. From a early-game build-variety standpoint, I think it could definitely work. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 19 2016 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: mutas were 100% fine in WoL and all the things that make you say that mutas would suck in all mus if muta regen was removed were introduced because of muta regen. The only part I agree with is stalkers should get the buff instead of cannons, stalkers are already pretty rare in the mu nowadays (keep the anti ground as it is and make the anti air 14 + something vs light so that the stalker is still as effective vs drops or void rays). ALL Protoss units regen their shield twice faster than mutalisk ! Medivac heals bio 9 times faster than mutalisk ! And VCS can repair any mecanical units faster than mutas regen ! It's just anti-Zerg bias claming mutas regen is OP, but medivac/shield regen are fine... P/T have massive anti-air AOE with WM, Thor, liberators, storm, archons, while Mutas are much more expensive than this units ! 3 mutas more expensive than a thor, 2 mutas more than one liberator or a HT. But you want 1 shot of thor/liberator or a storm will make useless a 10-20 mutas than cost 1000/1000-2000/2000 ! It's just pure whine and anti-Zerg bias rather than a serious demand. | ||
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Elentos
55554 Posts
On April 19 2016 05:56 Edowyth wrote: Personally, I don't think they can get rid of muta regen because of the potential for things like WMs and Turrets to simply be too effective. A nerf to 0.8 hp / HotS second (from the current 1.0) or even 0.6 or 0.7 would vastly improve the effective damage taken by mutalisks from AoE (and even normal) attacks ... which would vastly open upon counter-options in PvZ especially. I dislike the change to cannons because it's yet another soft-counter to a problem-matic ability (insane muta-regen). And yet, it would, I feel, open up PvZ. Because, just like in HotS and WoL, having more units is generally better than having a very few phoenix with limited energy versus all-ins or pressure builds. While, yes, Phoenix openers would still exist and, due to the current meta, probably be prevalent for a while ... other things could be safe, and thus Protoss players would use them if for nothing else than the surprise factor and, thus, increased chance to win versus an opponent. I mean, Protoss used to open soul-train versus zergs all the time. That'd be a hell of a build in LotV versus bane-rain builds, with well-spread sentries and good placement of forcefields. A mass of stalkers to force even more speedlings, and investment (not just larva, but also actual gas) into defenses early could be a solid transition to a mid-game. Everything that you'd normally be getting ground forces with (and thus forges for upgrades) would naturally be slightly buffed in the early-game with a change to cannons. I dislike the buff from a design standpoint. From a early-game build-variety standpoint, I think it could definitely work. The reason Protoss players open phoenixes isn't the pure safety though. There are safer openers. You're not prohibited from opening with 3 gates and a safety robo. But phoenixes are the safest economic opening. Making cannons "better" won't change that. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On April 19 2016 03:53 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree this is definitely not the way to go for the reason you stated : if the Z managed to get a good number of mutas, no cannon buff will help. An upgrade giving cannons anti air aoe was suggested at some point, it makes slightly more sense but I still think the problem is the mutas, not their counters. .4 collision radius to only hit Marines and Zerglings (in addition to Mutalisks) would help quite a lot for that purpose. Set it instead of .35 radius to only effect Mutalisks, but I rather like the idea of Photon Cannons being more effective in defending against swarms of early game units. Unfortunately, that might cause an issue with workers. An alternative solution would be to set the radius to .380 and increase the radius of workers to .385. Extremely subtle changes, except in the very specific cases of interacting with Photon Cannons. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 19 2016 05:53 Elentos wrote: I mean, really, this is an improvement in every matchup. Marines? Bio. Marauders? Bio. Zealots? Bio. Adepts? Bio. DTs? Bio. Phoenix/cannon new meta Now all that's left is to make the Artosis prophecy come true and give phoenixes the ability to help each other lift heavier things. 20 phoenixes can fly away with a hatchery. I always dream about picking up a viking  I know it's not bio, but damn, it's liking picking up vikings into medevacs(looking at you, Maru). | ||
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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UberNuB
United States365 Posts
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Railgan
Switzerland1507 Posts
Also not every Protoss goes Stargate. Gm Zerg here... | ||
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joshie0808
Canada1024 Posts
1) Nerfs overlord drops much harder than vs muta play 2) If buffed to the point of spore crawlers, negates muta play entirely 3) If not buffed to the point of spore crawlers, most high level players will manuver around so only 1 cannon shoots at the flock at a time. It just takes a tad more micro to attack a mineral line then. Lastly, I get that its good to introduce variety. Right now protoss players open stargate to deny muta switches from happening, and also to harass and scout zerg while taking their 3rd. Even if cannons got a buff (so muta switches are less strong), are there even better alternatives to opening stargate? You have to provide a more viable/interesting/fun option than stargate. If the protoss players cut stargate and go straight into robo/twilight, they lose the ability to harass and scout as easily. Maintaining the phoenix count is also important for later lurker engagements and to snipe vipers (if the player can keep the phoenix alive till hive). I predict even with the cannon buff, protoss players will still go pheonix. | ||
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Draddition
United States59 Posts
On April 19 2016 04:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: I fear the end result would be that : 1- P will still play the same style all over again, with or without phoenix (even if I didn't fear muta switches I would open phoenix every game because of the harass possibilities and the scouting opportunities) ; 2- no PvZ will ever see a muta again. So overall I don't think this is a sensible change -you even lose some variety in the end, even if muta switches are already pretty rare- if you don't combine it with changes to immortals for instance. That's certainly a potential outcome. I severely hope Blizzard doesn't assume this solves everything, but instead opens up possibilities to nerf/buff units on both sides, so we can reach a good point in the match up. Hopefully, this is only stage one. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
On April 19 2016 06:36 Draddition wrote: That's certainly a potential outcome. I severely hope Blizzard doesn't assume this solves everything, but instead opens up possibilities to nerf/buff units on both sides, so we can reach a good point in the match up. Hopefully, this is only stage one. I hope they can come up with something else to be frank, really feels like yet another bandaid and I don't see how it improves the mu. | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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