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On April 16 2016 07:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time. you may be right but when watching Zest play it looks like there's nothing his opponents can do. Like in his game vs TaeJa on dusk towers he just killed TaeJa who was massing units on 3 bases while being on 5 bases with 2 stargates and a fleet beacon on the way. If it stays just Zest it's of course fine but if more players catch up to his level it could become problematic.
In that game Zest exploited a very very narrow timing where Taeja had a good number of tech units but not enough buffer under them to not be overrrun by a massive low tech units push. It was quite beautiful execution, an absolutely flawless game (and I do hate protoss with all my heart :p).
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On April 16 2016 07:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time. you may be right but when watching Zest play it looks like there's nothing his opponents can do. Like in his game vs TaeJa on dusk towers he just killed TaeJa who was massing units on 3 bases while being on 5 bases with 2 stargates and a fleet beacon on the way. If it stays just Zest it's of course fine but if more players catch up to his level it could become problematic.
To me Zest crushing Terrans left and right right now does not look very different from Maru crushing Protoss at the end of Hots. They are just in the zone currently. Blame the players, not the race. At least not yet.
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On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time.
I kind of agree on the TvP part. It seems to me like if Protoss get's the upper hand in the early or mid game, they usually steam roll in the end. I would consider it light current ZvP, balanced with a slight edge to Zerg. Terran just has to be very on top of it, let's face it, Terran end game a little harder to manage then Protoss, stimming and splitting is mandatory and chargelots form a concave on their own..
And Protoss is super balanced in the mid and late game against Zerg, the early game stuff Zerg can pull are tough but not imba, 45% is considered in the realm of balanced. If anyone remembers, Zerg was always slightly favored vs. Protoss in BW with maps playing a crucial role in the match up, this map pool sucks, like really bad. Better maps will go such a long way to helping Protoss for Zerg it's absurd.
The Disruptor needs a buff, not the damn Colossus, leave that unit untouched and in the corner with the other cancer units (Raven..Host..)
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On April 16 2016 07:07 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 07:00 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time. you may be right but when watching Zest play it looks like there's nothing his opponents can do. Like in his game vs TaeJa on dusk towers he just killed TaeJa who was massing units on 3 bases while being on 5 bases with 2 stargates and a fleet beacon on the way. If it stays just Zest it's of course fine but if more players catch up to his level it could become problematic. To me Zest crushing Terrans left and right right now does not look very different from Maru crushing Protoss at the end of Hots. They are just in the zone currently. Blame the players, not the race. At least not yet.
Maru didn't win every pvt. herO, PartinG, Rain etc could still regularly beat him.
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On April 16 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 07:07 PPN wrote:On April 16 2016 07:00 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time. you may be right but when watching Zest play it looks like there's nothing his opponents can do. Like in his game vs TaeJa on dusk towers he just killed TaeJa who was massing units on 3 bases while being on 5 bases with 2 stargates and a fleet beacon on the way. If it stays just Zest it's of course fine but if more players catch up to his level it could become problematic. To me Zest crushing Terrans left and right right now does not look very different from Maru crushing Protoss at the end of Hots. They are just in the zone currently. Blame the players, not the race. At least not yet. Maru didn't win every pvt. herO, PartinG, Rain etc could still regularly beat him.
Zest lost one PvT this year as well.... 
On April 16 2016 06:54 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 06:46 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 16 2016 06:39 Big J wrote:Don't know if blizzard reads these threads, but anyways, this is the feedback I would like to give them if they really want to imrpove the game: Scarlett', 15.04.2016, teamliquid.net:
zvz right now is probably the coinflippyest its ever been
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/507627-gsl-code-s-season-1-2016-ro8-day-2?page=26#511
Stephano, 14.04.2016, Twitter:
You should check me out destroying terrans, getting owned by protoss, and the pure mess which is ZvZ.
Is ZvZ really that bad? To me it seems kinda the same as before, you just should never skip the baneling nest i guess? It's more of a coinflip because of overlord scouting. With more workers in LotV all ins come quicker, but you're overlords don't get across the map to scout any faster so it's harder to check for nats, gas counts, etc
On April 16 2016 07:02 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 06:46 The_Red_Viper wrote:Is ZvZ really that bad? To me it seems kinda the same as before, you just should never skip the baneling nest i guess? no OL scouting, short rush distance with shitty gimmicky maps and 13/12 being much better than 9pool ever was all helped making ZvZ pretty random at high level also metagame that allows "random" mutalisk switches I guess
Sure i get the no OL part, but if you build the baneling nest as soon as you have the gas you should be fine? Maybe?
Not a lot of experience with 13/12 though, it looked quite strong but should be holdable with gas, pool, hatch?
I mean if you try to cut every corner possible i can see why you would call it coinflippy, at the same time i don't know all the timings and it's more a gut feeling so who knows ^^
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On April 16 2016 07:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time. you may be right but when watching Zest play it looks like there's nothing his opponents can do. Like in his game vs TaeJa on dusk towers he just killed TaeJa who was massing units on 3 bases while being on 5 bases with 2 stargates and a fleet beacon on the way. If it stays just Zest it's of course fine but if more players catch up to his level it could become problematic.
It's a bit hard to tell because we have so few TvP games from the best Terrans at the moment. The Korean statistics at the moment are all very hard to interprete, because the qualifiers for SSL and GSL happened way before everyone had caught on to the new expansion. Zest and Dear seem to be the only former Starleague contenders/champions that didn't drop out in the early stages of the tournaments. Maybe I'm totally wrong on that, but I don't see either Dark, nor Solar, nor Ty as the next superstars of T an Z. (especially zerg seems to be in dires in Korea, with Life gone their biggest stars are the silversurfers ByuL and soO)
But yeah, from the few games we have seen lately I would definitely give a not so small advantage to Protoss in TvP. Even mediocre Protoss players seem to be quite a challenge to the best Terrans, while Zest and Dear are marching through Terran opponent's whether they play a good or bad game.
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On April 16 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 07:07 PPN wrote:On April 16 2016 07:00 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 06:34 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
seeing how hopeless terran players are against top tier protoss like Zest and Dear I feel TvP is a bigger problem than pvz. What, Terran seems to be doing just fine in TvP. PvZ isn't even an issue except for early game or maps as shown at the highest levels in KR. The only issue in PvZ is that Phoenix is really the only good option other then silly two base all ins. TvP seems fine, Zest is playing godlike right now and should come to no surprise that he destroyed Taeja, not due to balance. TvP doesn't seem bad from what I see, seems they both win half the time. you may be right but when watching Zest play it looks like there's nothing his opponents can do. Like in his game vs TaeJa on dusk towers he just killed TaeJa who was massing units on 3 bases while being on 5 bases with 2 stargates and a fleet beacon on the way. If it stays just Zest it's of course fine but if more players catch up to his level it could become problematic. To me Zest crushing Terrans left and right right now does not look very different from Maru crushing Protoss at the end of Hots. They are just in the zone currently. Blame the players, not the race. At least not yet. Maru didn't win every pvt. herO, PartinG, Rain etc could still regularly beat him.
PartinG had a similar PvT winrate at the start of 2015 and made the matchup look quite disgusting, too. He won games against Code S level Terrans with 2 stalkers and a mothership core.
Point being, when your execution is good enough, you'll make the game look unfair.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
It's quite hard to judge based on korean games because of low sample size and different map pools. Many of the games are played in bo3 and bo5 series with vetos, so you get situations like matchups having 90% of their games played on only 2-3 maps, one of which isn't in the ladder/WCS pool. That tilts balance.
Playing PvZ in a bo5 with GSL pool and vetos is more in protoss favor than playing a straight best of 7 across every ladder/WCS map, for example.
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Both Swarm Hosts and Colossi should see some kind of buffs in my opinion. Don't really understand the reason behind people whining about them when the game has changed a lot and is a lot more fast paced than before. Swarm Hosts have already been changed, if Colossi are bad for the game then they should redesign or tweak them a little, let them function a bit differently than in previous expansions.
I am totally fine with having situational units in the game that are not good at every stage of the game or on every map, but having units that are useless because you have others that just do the same thing much better is not good at all.
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The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be the solution neither (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him.
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On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be the solution neither (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him.
Or you just have some flying units or ravagers in place and kill them immidiately.
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On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him.
that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators.
Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army.
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On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army.
That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass
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On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass
No you don't have to. You can deal with them by ground. But yeah, you can build the air units and that's totally fine. You know, I also have to make marines because of pretty much ever Protoss and zerg unit in the game. You force me into making 5+ barracks, stim, combat shields, bio upgrades, medivacs, just because you make Protoss or Zerg units. THAT is an investment, not to make one phoenix after a standard oracle opening.
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On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass
oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else.
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On April 16 2016 08:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else.
This is a dumb response to a valid point .
Not saying Liberators are imbalanced means you play Terran and you like Liberators being imbalanced. Just like Zergs like to think that Zerg end game isn't OP vs. Terran with the Ultralisk.
Liberators are ez mode damage, just like Ultralisks are a move bio stompers.
The solution is to nerf Liberator AA capabilities so 25 + Mutalisks don't get a moved by 6 Liberators and remove the extra armor or nerf Chitinous Plating.
Oh. and then while they're at it, they can actually do what they said they were going to do with the tanks because in reality nobody besides David thinks that tankivacs is cool and the entire community just wants tanks that do their job better.
Boom, there you go, ZvT the best and most balanced match up to watch and play again, problem solved.
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On April 16 2016 08:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass No you don't have to. You can deal with them by ground. But yeah, you can build the air units and that's totally fine. You know, I also have to make marines because of pretty much ever Protoss and zerg unit in the game. You force me into making 5+ barracks, stim, combat shields, bio upgrades, medivacs, just because you make Protoss or Zerg units. THAT is an investment, not to make one phoenix after a standard oracle opening.
Yeah, and P has to make adepts and Z has to make roaches for the core of their armies, and upgrade them, very smart comparision.
By the way, glad you bring the oracle. You can stop an oracle with ONE single turret.
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On April 16 2016 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else. This is a dumb response to a valid point . Not saying Liberators are imbalanced means you play Terran and you like Liberators being imbalanced. Just like Zergs like to think that Zerg end game isn't OP vs. Terran with the Ultralisk. Liberators are ez mode damage, just like Ultralisks are a move bio stompers. The solution is to nerf Liberator AA capabilities so 25 + Mutalisks don't get a moved by 6 Liberators and remove the extra armor or nerf Chitinous Plating. Oh. and then while they're at it, they can actually do what they said they were going to do with the tanks because in reality nobody besides David thinks that tankivacs is cool and the entire community just wants tanks that do their job better. Boom, there you go, ZvT the best and most balanced match up to watch and play again, problem solved.
Not a valid point at all, its sc2, you have to make things to counter certain units. Liberator, ultralisk, tempests, whatever, sometimes you have to adjust your build and create other type of units to stay safe.
I do not imply liberators are fine, thats something you come up with out of the blue. Yes i play terran, but i would like to see them toned tone a bit. In fact, its sad that terran is forced to make liberators every game because the rest isnt great, think of the thor, cyclone and so many other units that doesnt have a good synergy (many reasons).
On April 16 2016 armazingerz1 wrote:
Yeah, and P has to make adepts and Z has to make roaches for the core of their armies, and upgrade them, very smart comparision.
By the way, glad you bring the oracle. You can stop an oracle with ONE single turret.
A player above silver can still do damage with the oracle by picking off units that are outside the turret range.
Also scouting purpose, stasis wards (a spell that doesnt expire: LOLOLOL)
etc. etc.
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I am not sure about liberator's range cause once korean has figured out stalker/adept/disruptor style.
They execute this army comp better than any foreigner even they invented it first 
So small change like map change to eliminate dead space is enough IMO.
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EPT
