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On April 16 2016 09:03 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else. This is a dumb response to a valid point . Not saying Liberators are imbalanced means you play Terran and you like Liberators being imbalanced. Just like Zergs like to think that Zerg end game isn't OP vs. Terran with the Ultralisk. Liberators are ez mode damage, just like Ultralisks are a move bio stompers. The solution is to nerf Liberator AA capabilities so 25 + Mutalisks don't get a moved by 6 Liberators and remove the extra armor or nerf Chitinous Plating. Oh. and then while they're at it, they can actually do what they said they were going to do with the tanks because in reality nobody besides David thinks that tankivacs is cool and the entire community just wants tanks that do their job better. Boom, there you go, ZvT the best and most balanced match up to watch and play again, problem solved. Not a valid point at all, its sc2, you have to make things to counter certain units. Liberator, ultralisk, tempests, whatever, sometimes you have to adjust your build and create other type of units to stay safe. I do not imply liberators are fine, thats something you come up with out of the blue. Yes i play terran, but i would like to see them toned tone a bit. In fact, its sad that terran is forced to make liberators every game because the rest isnt great, think of the thor, cyclone and so many other units that doesnt have a good synergy (many reasons).
Agreed with you, but the synergy problem also affects to many P units. Of course it's SC and you have to counter enemy units, but it has to be reasonable. Imagine that the only requirement for DTs would be the Cybernetics Core, and other players tell you "easy, make Ravens and turrets on every game", would you find it reasonable? And you would have to, because you will probably face them on every game, why woulnd't a P make at least one of them? It would cost him just 125/125, and if he couldn't harass he could make an Archon. The liberator, this particular "DT", has a range of 14 and flies.
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On April 16 2016 09:19 armazingerz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 09:03 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else. This is a dumb response to a valid point . Not saying Liberators are imbalanced means you play Terran and you like Liberators being imbalanced. Just like Zergs like to think that Zerg end game isn't OP vs. Terran with the Ultralisk. Liberators are ez mode damage, just like Ultralisks are a move bio stompers. The solution is to nerf Liberator AA capabilities so 25 + Mutalisks don't get a moved by 6 Liberators and remove the extra armor or nerf Chitinous Plating. Oh. and then while they're at it, they can actually do what they said they were going to do with the tanks because in reality nobody besides David thinks that tankivacs is cool and the entire community just wants tanks that do their job better. Boom, there you go, ZvT the best and most balanced match up to watch and play again, problem solved. Not a valid point at all, its sc2, you have to make things to counter certain units. Liberator, ultralisk, tempests, whatever, sometimes you have to adjust your build and create other type of units to stay safe. I do not imply liberators are fine, thats something you come up with out of the blue. Yes i play terran, but i would like to see them toned tone a bit. In fact, its sad that terran is forced to make liberators every game because the rest isnt great, think of the thor, cyclone and so many other units that doesnt have a good synergy (many reasons). Agreed with you, but the synergy problem also affects to many P units. Of course it's SC and you have to counter enemy units, but it has to be reasonable. Imagine that the only requirement for DTs would be the Cybernetics Core, and other players tell you "easy, make Ravens and turrets on every game", would you find it reasonable? And you would have to, because you will probably face them on every game, why woulnd't a P make at least one of them? It would cost him just 125/125, and if he couldn't harass he could make an Archon. The liberator, this particular "DT", has a range of 14.
Seriously ? You reach that stage of the game and still don't have any air unit for liberator ?
Talk about terran's harrass.I do think late game harrass option for terran is necessary and more bullshit than other race.
Because terran can't instant 40 gates warpin like LOTV trailer,so we must give terran's late game power in elsewhere.To counter the ability to remax of other race.
I also think if you win late game not because straight fight but because other stuff.
The game would be more unique.It's just like abiter come in your base and shitting on it and you die 
Late game strength of a race doesnt need to focus in straight up engage.
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On April 16 2016 09:27 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 09:19 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 09:03 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else. This is a dumb response to a valid point . Not saying Liberators are imbalanced means you play Terran and you like Liberators being imbalanced. Just like Zergs like to think that Zerg end game isn't OP vs. Terran with the Ultralisk. Liberators are ez mode damage, just like Ultralisks are a move bio stompers. The solution is to nerf Liberator AA capabilities so 25 + Mutalisks don't get a moved by 6 Liberators and remove the extra armor or nerf Chitinous Plating. Oh. and then while they're at it, they can actually do what they said they were going to do with the tanks because in reality nobody besides David thinks that tankivacs is cool and the entire community just wants tanks that do their job better. Boom, there you go, ZvT the best and most balanced match up to watch and play again, problem solved. Not a valid point at all, its sc2, you have to make things to counter certain units. Liberator, ultralisk, tempests, whatever, sometimes you have to adjust your build and create other type of units to stay safe. I do not imply liberators are fine, thats something you come up with out of the blue. Yes i play terran, but i would like to see them toned tone a bit. In fact, its sad that terran is forced to make liberators every game because the rest isnt great, think of the thor, cyclone and so many other units that doesnt have a good synergy (many reasons). Agreed with you, but the synergy problem also affects to many P units. Of course it's SC and you have to counter enemy units, but it has to be reasonable. Imagine that the only requirement for DTs would be the Cybernetics Core, and other players tell you "easy, make Ravens and turrets on every game", would you find it reasonable? And you would have to, because you will probably face them on every game, why woulnd't a P make at least one of them? It would cost him just 125/125, and if he couldn't harass he could make an Archon. The liberator, this particular "DT", has a range of 14. Seriously ? You reach that stage of the game and still don't have any air unit for liberator ? Talk about terran's harrass.I do think late game harrass option for terran is necessary and more bullshit than other race. Because terran can't instant 40 gates warpin like LOTV trailer,so we must give terran's late game power in elsewhere.To counter the ability to remax of other race. I also think if you win late game not because straight fight but because other stuff. The game would be more unique.It's just like abiter come in your base and shitting on it and you die Late game strength of a race doesnt need to focus in straight up engage.
There can be liberators by min 4
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Blizzard needs to watch more games of Broodwar.
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On April 16 2016 09:46 armazingerz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 09:27 seemsgood wrote:On April 16 2016 09:19 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 09:03 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On April 16 2016 08:33 armazingerz1 wrote:On April 16 2016 08:14 Charoisaur wrote:On April 16 2016 08:08 armazingerz1 wrote:
The problem with liberators is that's the cheapest, easiest and most effective way to harass in the whole game. They kill some workers very fast, then they stop you from mining for a long time and make you some casualties when trying to kill it. And it's SO easy to produce and use. Nerfing the AA damage won't fix that, I don't think that reducing the reticule would be solution either (because it's hard to deploy them properly while defending), I would go with a range reduction plus a slight rate of fire reduction, so you would lose lesser workers and you would take lesser casualties while killing him. that's one of the misconception non-terran players have. Liberators are far from being little commitment because every liberator is a medivac you didn't make and you have to divide your starport production between medivacs and liberators. Every liberator you lose is huge because if you remake them you probably won't have enough medivacs to sufficiently heal your army and if you don't remake you won't have their zoning potential in your army. That's quite a little commitment if you consider that P and Z players have to build a specific building and air units to deal with it or asume casualties. It's by far the riskless way to harass oh noes! you have to make units to counter stuff. if only lings could fly as well....or wait, a flying ultralisk. so you dont have to build anything else. This is a dumb response to a valid point . Not saying Liberators are imbalanced means you play Terran and you like Liberators being imbalanced. Just like Zergs like to think that Zerg end game isn't OP vs. Terran with the Ultralisk. Liberators are ez mode damage, just like Ultralisks are a move bio stompers. The solution is to nerf Liberator AA capabilities so 25 + Mutalisks don't get a moved by 6 Liberators and remove the extra armor or nerf Chitinous Plating. Oh. and then while they're at it, they can actually do what they said they were going to do with the tanks because in reality nobody besides David thinks that tankivacs is cool and the entire community just wants tanks that do their job better. Boom, there you go, ZvT the best and most balanced match up to watch and play again, problem solved. Not a valid point at all, its sc2, you have to make things to counter certain units. Liberator, ultralisk, tempests, whatever, sometimes you have to adjust your build and create other type of units to stay safe. I do not imply liberators are fine, thats something you come up with out of the blue. Yes i play terran, but i would like to see them toned tone a bit. In fact, its sad that terran is forced to make liberators every game because the rest isnt great, think of the thor, cyclone and so many other units that doesnt have a good synergy (many reasons). Agreed with you, but the synergy problem also affects to many P units. Of course it's SC and you have to counter enemy units, but it has to be reasonable. Imagine that the only requirement for DTs would be the Cybernetics Core, and other players tell you "easy, make Ravens and turrets on every game", would you find it reasonable? And you would have to, because you will probably face them on every game, why woulnd't a P make at least one of them? It would cost him just 125/125, and if he couldn't harass he could make an Archon. The liberator, this particular "DT", has a range of 14. Seriously ? You reach that stage of the game and still don't have any air unit for liberator ? Talk about terran's harrass.I do think late game harrass option for terran is necessary and more bullshit than other race. Because terran can't instant 40 gates warpin like LOTV trailer,so we must give terran's late game power in elsewhere.To counter the ability to remax of other race. I also think if you win late game not because straight fight but because other stuff. The game would be more unique.It's just like abiter come in your base and shitting on it and you die Late game strength of a race doesnt need to focus in straight up engage. There can be liberators by min 4
Then you need another respond to counter enemy's build.Early game is all about build order i think.Go watch trap vs taeja to see how he handle liberator range rush.
My point is just don't completely kill it cause build order diversity is good for this game.As long as you have a build order to counter or reduce the damage.
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On April 16 2016 03:27 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
While the idea of changing the Immortal Barrier to less cooldown and less damage absorbed does sound cool enough, the intention does seem to be based around an overall nerf and that really troubles me.
To me the immortal right now is the most fundamentally core unit Protoss has right now against all races as it really serves a key role against a variety of units in all matchups that otherwise could be hard to replace.
I agree with the Balance Update that the goal should be to have the smallest/most efficient impact on the game to specifically isolate and target a problem in the specific matchup, I would like to propose an alternative to nerfing the Immortal as the following suggestion would largely only target the specific issue:
- Increase Corrupter +massive damage.
This change will allow Zerg to play the same and other strategies as now, but with a better ability to transition to Brood Lords. Brood Lords are great at helping with attacks against Immortals, but due to the fact that Protoss can tech to Tempest, Zerg tends to lack proper DPS versus Tempests. By allowing a better synergy between Brood Lord and Corrupter, we can actually see Zerg transition beyond their midgame aggression and into a Corrupter-based composition when facing Tempests.
The effect of the change will be very small with almost no impcat on ZvT and ZvZ but will definitely help Zerg in lategame PvZ.
There are other possibilities like buffing abduct range or parasitic bomb +massive damage, but I believe this is the most solid I have seen/heard so far that exactly lives up to the design philosophy stated in the Balance Update.
With that being said, I like the idea of making Liberator a +light oriented unit with Thor being a +armored AA unit.
Making Overlord speed a requirement for Overlord transport seems to be the perfect solution for a possible change on that area assuming we still believe there are issues even with the new maps and map changes.
This sounds Solid to me. I'd really like to see this in a balance test map. Would be nice to see the Thor have a roll again. Hell I wish all the units were viable. BC's are just....
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"I’m sure many of you remember the situation we had in HotS where ZvZ games came down to whoever has more Mutalisks was the winner. If we look first for buffs instead of seeking for the “smallest possible changes”, we could buff units that are good vs. Mutalisks that weren’t used such as Hydralisks or Infestors. However, either of these changes would have been such huge changes in other matchups that were not problematic at the time (infestors were used vs. Terran and Roach/Hydralisk pushes were common in PvZ). We also think that a nerf to Mutalisk would be just as bad, because Mutalisks were also used often in other matchups. In this specific case, we found a small change that happened to be a buff, and we went with the Spore Crawler +bio damage change so that there was no impact in TvZ and PvZ."
Actually this was the worst bandaid of sc2 history please don't count this as a good example. Don't be afraid or lazy, just buff the "actual" counterplays and adjust all unit chain affected by it. Pushing balance over one little detail brings bad design and remains for a long time.
By the way i hope they realize that immortals are mathematically overpowered. They simply have too powerful stats for their price.
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I think this community update shows the issue clearly.
The community in general wants the game to change, and change a lot in design. Fixing all kinds of design problems with for example protoss, buffing underused units more actively, quality of life patches, etc.
David Kim / Blizzard want to keep the game about the same, and apply some miniscule, minor changes, maybe once upon a time, in order to 'fix balance'.
DK sees the game as a 99% finished product. The community sees it as maybe half finished. This is the cause of all the disconnect between the community and blizzard/DK.
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On April 16 2016 03:01 blade55555 wrote:
The most disappointing thing for me in this was buffing colossi. They buff that so it's "easier" for lower level players lol... Game will be back to boring seeing colossi every game with their A move. They were going in such a good direction to if they do go this route.
I was really, really, scared when I read that.
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So no banshee buff now arbitrarily after saying they'd buff it?
So basically, blizzard keeps announcing they'll change something with the game, then announce after that they are thinking about what to do with the change, then announce they'll do a map, then they announce they actually won't bother testing/patching the game and they will do a different change...
-> rinse repeat that cycle and they don't ever actually do any patch changes to SC2.
And people wonder why a lot of the SC2 community is mad/fed up with blizzard's non-patching of this game.
I just want to add an anecdote from my stream today about why people are leaving this game (and yes they are, it's the reality of the developers not listening to people in the community):
I was coaching a player live on stream today, he was playing a TvZ game. As the game was continuing to a certain point he had a maxed army of mech and libs and his opponent had a maxed army of corruptor viper etc.
His opponent clicked on 7 liberators with parasitic bomb and my student and myself are just basically in disbelief that there's no counter play or anything you can do to stop this thing - it just happens and you lose.
I told my student outright "i can't really give you advice on this one, there's no counterplay available, you just basically lose the units if you don't somehow EMP every single viper before the fight starts."
My student was in gold/plat/diamond. Imagine the amount of games on ladder right now where similar things are happening with invincible nydus worms being spawned in a player's base and they are autolosing because it's untargettable. Do you guys really think people will want to play the game much longer?
How much longer are these things with SC2 going to be ignored and not patched? It's ludicrous that our entire community is not up in arms over gimmicky bullshit like invincible nydus, adept/warp prism, mass liberator, para bomb, 8 armor ultra still remaining in this game.
Casters can say as much as they want "this is so fun to watch SC2 is the best game evar!" in their casts but the fact is it might be fun for them and some elitist SC2 players to watch, but for the people playing the game it's an entirely different F word - FRUSTRATING.
Please everyone urge the developers to do an entire sweep over all of the infuriating aspects currently in SC2 before they sit here and say they are patching while putting out empty words and doing no changes for MONTHS.
Things blizzard needs to do a balance sweep over:
-8 armor ultra
-marauder split attack revert
-collosus revert/buff
-parasitic bomb removal
-liberator nerf
-pylon cannon why is this in the game it's stupidity and worse than nexus cannon ever was
-all air units nerfed in supply to avoid mass air non-sense
-nydus worm reverted to HOTS, price reduced perhaps
-MECH VIABILITY every game currently is 100% bio + mass lib/ghost, needs to be addressed asap not years later
-adept/warp prism - needs nerfs on shade cooldown/warp prism pick-up range, infuriating to play against
-overall Protoss changes to design to make the race less infuriating to play against
-swarm hosts so useless pros and myself unbound the hotkey or kill any one we make by accident
-reaper grenades need to be removed from the game, it's just gimmicky all-in promotion, not skill
-tier 1 overlord drop this does not belong on tier 1, it just promotes coinflips and more all-ins
-cyclones being one of the most garbage units in the game, right behind swarmhosts
-a ton more i probably left out of the list that people can point out
Look at all of those issues - none addressed, blizzard not willing to patch them, or ignoring them. Meanwhile, we have announcements of announcements of possible changes, possible test maps, then announcements to announce they decided not to do anything, that they're buffing banshee speed arbitrarily, then not doing it now arbitrarily while ignoring all of the really bad things in the game =/
It's really disheartening. Speak up or forever hold your peace SC2 fans.
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On April 16 2016 13:22 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 03:01 blade55555 wrote:
The most disappointing thing for me in this was buffing colossi. They buff that so it's "easier" for lower level players lol... Game will be back to boring seeing colossi every game with their A move. They were going in such a good direction to if they do go this route. I was really, really, scared when I read that.
I think buffing the Collosus in any way is just DKim's subtle way of saying "yeah we fucked up with the Disruptor".
The fact that this unit is so binary in its damage output already rendered it quasi-obsolete in PvZ and PvT, but Protoss still need some form of Splash to counter the other races. Unless Protoss goes for the PICA build in PvZ, or use something out of the "bag of bs" in PvT to equalize the army strenght in mid game, they are in dire need of splash.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
The fact that this unit is so binary in its damage output already rendered it quasi-obsolete in PvZ and PvT
No.. The 1.55x reduction in damage with +3 attack and enemies at +3 armor rendered it quasi-obsolete.
When a unit stands around and shoots at things, nuking its ability to do so without making it any more accessible or cheaper will make it only marginally useful. It's not rocket surgery!
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On April 16 2016 13:24 avilo wrote:
-8 armor ultra
-marauder split attack revert
-collosus revert/buff
-parasitic bomb removal
-liberator nerf
-pylon cannon why is this in the game it's stupidity and worse than nexus cannon ever was
-all air units nerfed in supply to avoid mass air non-sense
-nydus worm reverted to HOTS, price reduced perhaps
-MECH VIABILITY every game currently is 100% bio + mass lib/ghost, needs to be addressed asap not years later
-adept/warp prism - needs nerfs on shade cooldown/warp prism pick-up range, infuriating to play against
-overall Protoss changes to design to make the race less infuriating to play against
-swarm hosts so useless pros and myself unbound the hotkey or kill any one we make by accident
-reaper grenades need to be removed from the game, it's just gimmicky all-in promotion, not skill
-tier 1 overlord drop this does not belong on tier 1, it just promotes coinflips and more all-ins
-cyclones being one of the most garbage units in the game, right behind swarmhosts
-a ton more i probably left out of the list that people can point out
this list is so spot on I wish avilo would be in charge of the balance team.
only things I slightly disagree with are collossus buff and pylon cannon nerf and maybe the marauder revert.
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Avilo, maybe the existence of Parasistic Bomb is precisely what neutralizes stupid mass liberators play? (it is a real question, not a rhetorical one). Yeah, Mech must be somehow viable, and yeah Cyclones should have a role, as well as Thors, etc., and I agree it must change. But often times the way to nerf an overpowered unit when massed (otherwise being an interesting one) is to do some kind of mass damage to it to discourage building too many of them at some point of the game. I actually love this way of balancing, it think it's elegant.
Agree on making all unit useful or just remove them from the game (Colossus, SH, Cyclones, BCs), but I'm suspecting DK reserves them as an "emergency extra balancing option", and waits before the metagame stabilizes more before moving them towards a yet-to-be-discovered niche role. Kinda agree with it.
Just do not make Colossus an EZ option for casuals that pros won't ever use, game should not be dumbed down at lower levels. Plus, Colossus was very frustrating to play against back in gold/plat HotS because of it unidimensional aspect, and I believe it made more players quit the game than any of the current "issues" are.
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What world are we living in where Avilos posts are super fucking legit and on point :p
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Unfortunately people here are still completely out of touch with the game, parasitic bomb is not imbalance, nor does it have 0 counterplay - atm, good terran players win late game tvz if they get close to max on air armies/ghosts/etc, it's not even debatable. Furthermore, this also makes the "ultralisk imbalanced" posts obsolete, ultralisks get absolutely shit on by mass air too. Lastly, there are cyclones produced in a lot of terran games at the highest level, sure they might only make one or two, but it actually has a role and it's clearly good enough for that particular role for top level professionals to make them - comparing them to swarm hosts? Please, it's not even close.
Zerg definitely needs better anti air, buffing corruptors is a good way to do it, and nerfing liberators to be anti-light might help aswell (albeit the liberator change alone won't help in zvp, where air armies are literally unkillable atm). I also think it's absurd that certain terran players keep talking about bringing mech back, but then they also say that swarm hosts are awful and shouldn't be in the game - turtle mech and swarm hosts were exactly the same boring turtle playstyle, a playstyle that definitely ruined a lot of potentially great matches - no one sensible wants to watch 2 hour long games with 0 action.
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Yes this is off topic, but please make an option for bigger chat text on bnet!
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I really don't understand, why they would be thinking about finally not nerfing the liberator. This unit is declared imba by players from all skill levels (from Bronze to Masters to Dark during GSL) and is not fun to play against at all, since the denying of mining time forces you to build 3 early ravagers or to have 4 queens, and even so, even with this massive investment in defense, you still lose a ton of mining time. In the late game this unit still is hyper strong : 85 ground damage... hyper strong AA with AOE damage.
To sum up : we there have a unit which can be built without a possibility of scouting since there is no need for a tech lab (how do I know if I'm gonna get dropped hellions, dropped mines, have to face mass marines with medivacs or liberators), with an insane range and an insane amount of damage dealt, against ground and air, hyper strong in every phase of the game. That's buff material to me.
The immortal barrier is also, to a lesser degree, an abnormality to me : that's a huge buff from HOTS, like every pro will recognize it.
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On April 16 2016 13:09 H0i wrote:
I think this community update shows the issue clearly.
The community in general wants the game to change, and change a lot in design. Fixing all kinds of design problems with for example protoss, buffing underused units more actively, quality of life patches, etc.
David Kim / Blizzard want to keep the game about the same, and apply some miniscule, minor changes, maybe once upon a time, in order to 'fix balance'.
DK sees the game as a 99% finished product. The community sees it as maybe half finished. This is the cause of all the disconnect between the community and blizzard/DK.
=> this exactly. But then again, I don't understand how blizzard can be so oblivious to the community's wishes. And if they know what the community wants, why the fuck are they stalling for time?
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On April 16 2016 19:27 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 13:09 H0i wrote:
I think this community update shows the issue clearly.
The community in general wants the game to change, and change a lot in design. Fixing all kinds of design problems with for example protoss, buffing underused units more actively, quality of life patches, etc.
David Kim / Blizzard want to keep the game about the same, and apply some miniscule, minor changes, maybe once upon a time, in order to 'fix balance'.
DK sees the game as a 99% finished product. The community sees it as maybe half finished. This is the cause of all the disconnect between the community and blizzard/DK. => this exactly. But then again, I don't understand how blizzard can be so oblivious to the community's wishes. And if they know what the community wants, why the fuck are they stalling for time?
Professionals, especially the Koreans, seem to hate bigger/frequent patches. Parts of the community also side with them, so it's not such a universal wish as you make it out to be to begin with.
And in general the game is finished. It's their game and their designs. They pushed them into a beta, they made some smaller and bigger changes to their ideas and they released an expansion. Job done, everything else is maintenance.
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EPT
