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Waxangel
United States33487 Posts
The fact that he's very publicly streaming and getting along relatively fine (at least from the outside) sets an awful example. In that regard, I think one of the most important deterrents was actually established a few months ago, when KeSPA (and maybe Blizzard?!) got Afreeca to ban match-fixers from streaming official KeSPA games. | ||
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HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On April 09 2016 02:50 Waxangel wrote: They shoulda done this to Savior instead D: The fact that he's very publicly streaming and getting along relatively fine (at least from the outside) sets an awful example. I dunno, Asian culture seems bigger on being ridiculously punitive to show that those doing the punishing are morally distanced from the guilty part's actions rather than actually fixing issues. That encourages a system where people learn to act out a moral play when in public. But if you are super-type A person like Savior seems to be and say "F*ck the system" and ignore that society expects you to act like a pariah always asking for forgiveness (or disappearing to become a nobody) for the rest of your life, then there's not a lot anyone can do about you besides whine that you aren't acting your part. Therefore KESPA can't really do anything to Savior because Savior does whatever Savior wants. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On April 08 2016 23:56 Penev wrote: I guess they have that seperate from the criminal case (this new one would be a civil case). I know in the US you have this option too. But I'm no expert on this. Aren't civil and criminal cases always separate? | ||
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Penev
28503 Posts
On April 09 2016 07:59 OtherWorld wrote: Aren't civil and criminal cases always separate? Yes but I'm not sure you can have both a civil trial and a criminal trial for the same offence in every country. Apparently in South Korea at least you can. (With "seperate" I meant the damages part) | ||
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Korakys
New Zealand272 Posts
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote: You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. Minimum wage is less than $5 USD per hour. True minimum wage is even less because while they receive say 40 hours a week on paper, they're actually working 60+ hours a week with no extra pay, overtime, etc. A high school drop out will earn about $10,000-$12,000 a year. A University drop out will earn the same. What's even scarier? Tonnes of University graduates will earn the same as well. The job market is awful, opportunity is minimal, promotion is rare, and you basically have no rights as an employee. You need to share a half studio 3 towns away from your job just to afford living expenses. The consensus of the Korean population is that "this is that way it is, we can't do anything about it." The result is the term "Chosun Hell," the hatred of the chaebol, and all that other fun stuff. Plenty just walk away from their situation and take their skills overseas, Korea has one of the highest "Brain Drain" for a reason. But just wait for the aging population to vitalize the job market, it won't be too long until Korea has the same problem as Japan eventually leading to a surplus immigration. Japan has a really strong job market right now because of their aging population, their "brain drain" compared to a decade ago has improved drastically. There are some signs of it already, immigration has been growing over the half decade. Living expenses through the roof, but that is why many Koreans live with their parents until marriage and even post marriage. Even with all these problems, it is miles ahead of the conditions in China, South East Asia, basically every Far East country other than Japan. In another decade, when a large portion of the work force nears retirement, Korea will face similar job boons as Japan. Chaebol system is a seriously problem, but more and more wealthy are following the western examples of donating instead of inheritance. I'm sure after international affairs settle down more progressive reforms will come. PS. most universities outside of the "top three" aren't very established in the job market and have been founded very recently. Considering that they are hardly much better than technical schools, it isn't hard to see why many of their grads can't get a good return on their education. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On April 09 2016 02:50 Waxangel wrote: They shoulda done this to Savior instead D: The fact that he's very publicly streaming and getting along relatively fine (at least from the outside) sets an awful example. In that regard, I think one of the most important deterrents was actually established a few months ago, when KeSPA (and maybe Blizzard?!) got Afreeca to ban match-fixers from streaming official KeSPA games. I thought he deleted his afreeca account last august? | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
Some adults on their team influenced their kids to make bad decisions. So Kespa failed in protecting it's own kids. They are making these kids out to be the scapegoats of their failings. Also, I don't think the effect of match fixers on the game is as drastic as they say. Not to long ago there was a scandal where NBA refs were fixing games,(it was actually 2007) the NBA is as popular as ever right now. People are able to understand the difference between the actions of some individuals and the game as a whole. I don't see where these kids have cause irreparable damage. In fact, I completely forgot about this while watching the NA/EU qualifiers and now thanks to them and this front page news article I have remembered. | ||
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
On April 09 2016 03:11 HornyHerring wrote: Great! In debt for the next few years and a ban for current line of work? Great! Should've thought about that before they tried to scam people out of their money. Karma's a bitch, well deserved imo. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 09 2016 17:39 Korakys wrote: According to the principals of double jeopardy, KESPA should not hand down any punishment that the court could have. A ban from esports does not fall under this though. (Not that I'm implying those principals will actually be followed). In general double jeopardy does not apply if the first charge is criminal and the second civil. Not sure about Korean law specifically. | ||
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Kevn23
United States80 Posts
Stupid KeSpa. | ||
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TLIdrA
2 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On April 08 2016 19:09 Incognoto wrote: To me their statement says "don't mess with the integrity of starcraft", which is indeed why KeSPA exists in the first place. Match-fixing is serious as fuck, businesses are being ran and if the integrity of starcraft is attacked, then so are those businesses, as well as the people working there: progamers, casters, studios, etc. :/ It's really not serious though. You're talking about kids playing video games for money, maybe if they are lucky enough money to live at the poverty line, and that's only if you're the best of the best. The integrity of most "businesses" is a joke. Banks take advantages of people all the time to earn a buck, would you call that an attack on people? And rarely will these institutions get more than a slap on the wrist for anything they do. Kespa is no better, everything they do is to turn a profit. Murder, assault, armed robbery, these are seriously impactful things that really hurt people. The criminal sentences they received were fine, and a lifetime ban from the sport is all the deterrent they could ever hope for. Anyone who wants to make a career in esports would probably not cross that line, making them spend a year in jail or taking their money will just fuck up mentally and fuck their lives. This game and the integrity of this esports isn't worth fucking up one person's life for making a mistake, period. There was a time when this game and the scene around it really shined, and I felt like it brought people together, but those days are gone as far as I can tell. In this day and age it feels more like a vampire trying to suck the blood/money out of every last bit of the scene. Maybe it needs to die and be reborn, like Brood war. When I tune into TL it feels like I'm turning on CNN. My stomach feels sick reading most of the news, the other half just really isn't interesting or relevant anymore. (Ps. I was a hardcore fan from day one.) | ||
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Swoopae
Australia339 Posts
I do think Gerrard should receive more punishment than anyone else caught in the scandal though as a coach has a position of power over the players. Honestly I believe (based on my own personal opinion only) that Kespa knew match fixing was going on all along and did their best to cover it up and deny due to the 'honour' culture and the shame that players caught match fixing in their league would bring to their organisation and are now trying to overcompensate as more players are being caught. There are still players in proleague who are likely to have matchfixed in my opinion although I will grant that I think a lot less matchfixing is going on in SC2 compared to a year or two ago and the players who I think fixed have mostly disappeared from the scene either of their own accord or through their teams forcing them out quietly. Those that remain have been scared into not fixing anymore at least as far as I can tell. That said, i'm not following the esports scene as closely as I was and only watch one or two matches a week and don't always monitor all of the line movement, and besides I assume the fixers would have moved away from public sportsbooks where lines are public knowledge as that's most of why they got caught (along with certain players being incompetent at trying to lose matches and not make it look suspicious). Kespa are not serious about cleaning house though, they're interested interested in covering their own asses and looking like the good guys. Personally while I continue to watch proleague I have no respect for the kespa organisation itself anymore. They had their chance to handle this well originally when the first scandal broke and they failed miserably. The only reason Kespa is taking ANY action is out of self interest. Odds of tempban for post this time: 5-1. I think I did ok? | ||
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rotta
5595 Posts
On April 12 2016 19:45 Swoopae wrote: Odds of tempban for post this time: 5-1. I think I did ok? I'm pretty sure that martyrs' odds are higher than that. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote: You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. I've lived in Asia for just about 16 years combined. I do know what I'm talking about. Prospects are shitty, but it's uniformly shitty. I'm objecting to the idea that you should give esports progamers more leeway than other people working in comparable salaries and prospects. Chances are if you do something that royally fucks with any profession or field (as matchfixing is doing to SC) you are getting blackballed, especially in conservative and large corporations in Korea and Japan. Whether or not that's right or wrong is an entirely different story. I've been with people from the semi-pro (since there's no real pro scene any more) BW scene and tangentially the SC2 scene in China; prospects are way shittier there yet I never see people using that as some excuse for matchfixing. My perspective isn't just based in South Korea. I'm well aware of the generational gap, the oppressive environment, the aspirational marketting, and the high suicide rates. That being said no employer in Korea or Japan (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) should employ on a basis expecting young adults to cheat them and make money on the side. Do I want progamers to get better treatment and monetary compensation? Yes. Do I think better monetary compensation will discourage criminal action? Yes, but only to a degree. Players should be entitled to wages that allow them to afford a good standard of living, but beyond that I doubt there is any positive correlation. Alot of the matchfixers in BW were the most fortunate and promoted rising stars of their respective teams. Some of the best paid athletes in the world turn out to be cheats and ringleaders. Do I think progamers are fortunate in their positions compared to their peers of equal educational backgrounds, and taking into account the actual physical strain and work conditions they are in? Yes. Do I think Kespa is with in their right to file civil action against the matchfixers? Yes. Do I think Kespa are being scumbags doing so? Yes and no. I'm just going to assume that there's also social and financial pressure from sponsors to Kespa to keep this whole matchfixing thing under control and this is one of the best PR moves that they can make. The social platforms are simply not in place to account for post retirement athletes in general. Athletes in almost every field faces this same problem and it's not an easy problem to solve either. If multi-billion dollar industries haven't been able to properly take care of their athletes I really don't have high hopes for Kespa coming up with some novel solution in a relatively new field that doesn't have many social platforms yet. On April 08 2016 19:26 OtherWorld wrote: Yeah because children are perfect copies of their parents, that's right. They are different people, who maybe hold different values to different things. Values also change over time, meaning that a young pro who doesn't care about low salaries might learn to care about them two years in his career, once he realizes that he'll never be a StarLeague winner or his team's ace player. Meanwhile, parents, who know what low salaries is like, will maybe go along with it on the basis that "he knows what he's getting into", like you're doing. Matter of fact, they're not. Perception and values change over time. That's the same as every other job and profession. As much as I might personally want there to be leeway for Esports athletes because I care about them, they are already getting special treatment in this regard. Personally I think it's shitty in the first place that biology pretty much dictates for many sports and competitive events that you are at your peak performance when you don't possess the knowledge, experience, and mental capacities to make proper decisions. This pretty much makes any esports and sporting leagues innately exploitative on young talent while funneling money to executives who only care about their bottom line (see NCAA, FIFA, etc). | ||
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