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United States33228 Posts
Source: KeSPA facebook
The Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA) announced they will pursue further legal action against those involved in the 2015 match-fixing scandal, which involved Prime members Gerrard, YoDa, and BBoongBBoong. The criminal case ended in March with a judge handing out suspended sentences and fines, which KeSPA stated are an insufficient deterrent to future match-fixing.
In order to prevent future cases of match-fixing, KeSPA said they will use "all civil measures possible," as well as continuing their player education and illicit-website monitoring programs. KeSPA had already stated last October, when the arrests were made, that they would consider suing for damages.
Translation of KeSPA statement
"Hello, this is Korea e-Sports Association.
Our stance on the court decision regarding the individuals involved in StarCraft II match-fixing is as follows.
In 2010, the e-Sports industry was given an unerasable scar by the first match-fixing scandal in e-Sports history. Afterward, the Association, all e-Sports teams, and the industry have put in considerable effort to repair the damaged image from the match-fixing scandal, and prevent the similar cases from occurring in the future. In spite of this, the credibility of esports fell again last year due to match-fixing involving a head coach, players, brokers, and industry insiders, damaging the foundation of the industry.
A few days ago, a court decided to sentence those involved in the crime to suspended sentences and fines. However, the Assocation and e-Sports teams are extremely concerned that this decision is insufficient to thoroughly prevent copycat crimes, the continued solicitation of players by a broker-network which has not been rooted out, and reoccurence of other illicit activities.
Thus, in order to prevent similar cases from occurring and to alert people to the issue, the Assocation and teams will pursue all civil measures possible against those who participated in this match-fixing scandal. Furthermore, we will continue our preventative programs such as player education and the monitoring-reporting of illegal betting sites."
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I doubt harsher sentences will keep them from cheating. They wouldnt cheat if they thought they could get caught.
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anyoen else feeling a lifelong sentence without parole? fing idiots
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so basically Kespa jail ?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49986 Posts
you cannot bail out of the KeSPA jail.
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Tldr: You fuck with our eSport, we will find you. We will make your life hell.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49986 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:25 lichter wrote:
KESPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Spartan Training, Spartan Justice.
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United States33228 Posts
Apparently KeSPA jail was actually eternal financial ruin
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:30 Waxangel wrote:
Apparently KeSPA jail was actually eternal financial ruin
They will have to prove the damage they caused, won't they? ,-) And I want to see the proofs of that 
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Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit.
And which doesn't work.
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How about instead of trying to punish everything, they actually give support to their teams? I've yet to see KeSPA significantly help a team or make any effort to prevent top teams from snatching rising stars with their unlimited money (or slightly above the zero money that the small teams have). Match-fixing is awful, but if a team with no sponsor and no options (because their education and job experiences were forsaken to become pros) has their back to a wall, the probability of succumbing to quick money from match-fixing rises pretty high. Try actually supporting the teams and creating a thriving environment instead of pretending you're a good organizer by beating up on broken kids. As it is right now, Proleague is a small club of rich kids whose parents brought some poor kids to be punching bags.
And there was the Team 8 thing in the past, but I believe that was just an act of self-preservation rather than generosity. They obviously gave up on that already with less Starcraft money to be had.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49986 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:44 RoninKenshin wrote:
How about instead of trying to punish everything, they actually give support to their teams? I've yet to see KeSPA significantly help a team or make any effort to prevent top teams from snatching rising stars with their unlimited money (or slightly above the zero money that the small teams have). Match-fixing is awful, but if a team with no sponsor and no options (because their education and job experiences were forsaken to become pros) has their back to a wall, the probability of succumbing to quick money from match-fixing rises pretty high. Try actually supporting the teams and creating a thriving environment instead of pretending you're a good organizer by beating up on broken kids. As it is right now, Proleague is a small club of rich kids whose parents brought some poor kids to be punching bags.
And there was the Team 8 thing in the past, but I believe that was just an act of self-preservation rather than generosity. They obviously gave up on that already with less Starcraft money to be had.
Team 8 became Jin Air
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On April 08 2016 16:34 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:30 Waxangel wrote:
Apparently KeSPA jail was actually eternal financial ruin They will have to prove the damage they caused, won't they? ,-) And I want to see the proofs of that
They are already convicted of mach fixing. What other evidence do you really need?
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On April 08 2016 16:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:44 RoninKenshin wrote:
How about instead of trying to punish everything, they actually give support to their teams? I've yet to see KeSPA significantly help a team or make any effort to prevent top teams from snatching rising stars with their unlimited money (or slightly above the zero money that the small teams have). Match-fixing is awful, but if a team with no sponsor and no options (because their education and job experiences were forsaken to become pros) has their back to a wall, the probability of succumbing to quick money from match-fixing rises pretty high. Try actually supporting the teams and creating a thriving environment instead of pretending you're a good organizer by beating up on broken kids. As it is right now, Proleague is a small club of rich kids whose parents brought some poor kids to be punching bags.
And there was the Team 8 thing in the past, but I believe that was just an act of self-preservation rather than generosity. They obviously gave up on that already with less Starcraft money to be had. Team 8 became Jin Air
Yes, KeSPA personally sponsored Team 8 until it was sold/handed off to Jin Air. I'm saying the action of personally sponsoring a team of players including the high salary of Jaedong, who was sold to EG while on Team 8, might appear to be generous, but I believe it was done purely out of self-interest rather than generosity.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49986 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:57 Alluton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:30 Waxangel wrote:
Apparently KeSPA jail was actually eternal financial ruin They will have to prove the damage they caused, won't they? ,-) And I want to see the proofs of that They are already convicted of mach fixing. What other evidence do you really need?
can't use evidence brought up from their prior trial
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On April 08 2016 16:58 RoninKenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 08 2016 16:44 RoninKenshin wrote:
How about instead of trying to punish everything, they actually give support to their teams? I've yet to see KeSPA significantly help a team or make any effort to prevent top teams from snatching rising stars with their unlimited money (or slightly above the zero money that the small teams have). Match-fixing is awful, but if a team with no sponsor and no options (because their education and job experiences were forsaken to become pros) has their back to a wall, the probability of succumbing to quick money from match-fixing rises pretty high. Try actually supporting the teams and creating a thriving environment instead of pretending you're a good organizer by beating up on broken kids. As it is right now, Proleague is a small club of rich kids whose parents brought some poor kids to be punching bags.
And there was the Team 8 thing in the past, but I believe that was just an act of self-preservation rather than generosity. They obviously gave up on that already with less Starcraft money to be had. Team 8 became Jin Air Yes, KeSPA personally sponsored Team 8 until it was sold/handed off to Jin Air. I'm saying the action of personally sponsoring a team of players including the high salary of Jaedong, who was sold to EG while on Team 8, might appear to be generous, but I believe it was done purely out of self-interest rather than generosity.
Its a business. Everything they do is done out of self interest. And that is not bad.
It is not kespas fault that some teams dont have enough money to keep themselves afloat. This is just the way the SC2 scene has evolved. Its sad, but kespa couldnt do too much about it. (well, maybe a little bit; but still)
I still dont agree with punishing people more then necessary. At least not the players. They are just kids that did something stupid. I did plenty of stupid things when I was a kid and I bet most of you did too.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:57 Alluton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:30 Waxangel wrote:
Apparently KeSPA jail was actually eternal financial ruin They will have to prove the damage they caused, won't they? ,-) And I want to see the proofs of that They are already convicted of mach fixing. What other evidence do you really need?
So, in Western countries it works this way - if you want to get some financial satisfaction you have to prove the damage the person caused. e.g. someone says you are a child molester, they are sentenced for lying(I don't know proper legal term in English) and then you can sue them for the money you lost based on this accusation(e.g. you lost your job of kindergarten teacher based on that accusation).
In this case KeSPA needs to prove their behavior made a direct impact on their income. And that will be hard 
Though it may work differently in Korea.
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On April 08 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit. And which doesn't work.
reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking.
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Wonder if Kespa's attitude of punishing people so hard that it will deter the crime would do more harm then good. Bc I don't see how it would further prevent desperate progamers trying to make a quick buck before it's too late.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 17:07 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit. And which doesn't work. reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking.
Exactly this.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36990 Posts
On April 08 2016 16:27 BLinD-RawR wrote:Spartan Training, Spartan Justice.
FTFL
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On April 08 2016 17:10 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 17:07 swissman777 wrote:On April 08 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit. And which doesn't work. reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking. Exactly this.
Right because complacency towards dangerous criminals (which harm the lives of law-abiding citizens) or towards cheaters who do harm to an esport scene is the right attitude.
You want to cheat everyone else? Fine, but you'd better be fucking ready when you face the consequences of your actions.
It's not like Kespa is asking for death penalty or something here. They want to make it clear that match-fixing should not be taken lightly, as it shouldn't be.
To be quite frank, neither should drug dealing. I personally wish that law enforcement would do its job better.
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I don't think this will help prevent future crimes, sucks for yoda and b4.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51458 Posts
Don't mess with KESPA kids!!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 17:30 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 17:10 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 17:07 swissman777 wrote:On April 08 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit. And which doesn't work. reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking. Exactly this. Right because complacency towards dangerous criminals (which harm the lives of law-abiding citizens) or towards cheaters who do harm to an esport scene is the right attitude. You want to cheat everyone else? Fine, but you'd better be fucking ready when you face the consequences of your actions. It's not like Kespa is asking for death penalty or something here. They want to make it clear that match-fixing should not be taken lightly, as it shouldn't be. To be quite frank, neither should drug dealing. I personally wish that law enforcement would do its job better.
No one is saying that there shouldn't be consequences but that harsh punishments do not work. It didn't work in our history(you remember history lessons about sentences hundreds years ago), it doesn't work now(example was already given). Even death penalty doesn't work as several countries provide high enough numbers and people STILL DO IT!
What KeSPA does is morally shit, it won't work and it's probably more than anything a gesture.
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A true test of KeSPA's soul if there ever was one. If they go at this like the US does laws (and sentencing) then all the worse things about them are probably true. On the other hand they could go at this like the Scandinavian justice and prison system. Prove their point but be nice about. =)
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Is this a joke? I cannot believe they actually said that the reason for them pursuing legal action is because they want a stronger deterrent for future match-fixers. That is prettttttty lame. Agree with boxerfred here...
Sort of embarrassing, Kespa.
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Same as with anything, You need to smash the conflict of interest to avoid match-fixing.
By harsher sentences you get nothing (Youd think we would have learned that over the mileania, but seems humans aint as smart as we think we are).
Lets see... in Politics, politicians are corrupt because they first get sponsored then they got the power to help their sponsors.
SO, you take that power away, and there is no incentive.
In Match-fixing, the incentive comes from players getting paid to throw matches, and the brokers benefit from winning more money.
SO, if people stop betting money on E-Sports, the brokers has no incentive to ask anyone to match-fix (this is probably NOT gonna happen, so lets look for another solution).
If people are betting, lets assume that brokers WILL match-fix, since its human nature to try to cheat others for personal benefit (Dating sort of proves it every day):
SO, how can we separate the incentive for either brokers or players to "mutually benefit" at the expense of others...
I dont think we can in this instance.
If people are betting and we cant separate brokers from players (and those are the only 2 factors that are "required" in order for there to be an Incentive to match-fix), you will always have the threat of match-fixing.
Betting and gambling always had strong ties to criminal actors, because where there is a lot of money changing hands, you can make a fortune quick (Banks are a good example).
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If KeSPA weren't (semi) government it would be more understandable to ask for damages,
These people are dealt with and already charged to pay big fines. This is just more fake security to try to appease the pitchforkers.
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously.
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On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously.
How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job.
If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this?
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On April 08 2016 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 17:30 Incognoto wrote:On April 08 2016 17:10 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 17:07 swissman777 wrote:On April 08 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit. And which doesn't work. reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking. Exactly this. Right because complacency towards dangerous criminals (which harm the lives of law-abiding citizens) or towards cheaters who do harm to an esport scene is the right attitude. You want to cheat everyone else? Fine, but you'd better be fucking ready when you face the consequences of your actions. It's not like Kespa is asking for death penalty or something here. They want to make it clear that match-fixing should not be taken lightly, as it shouldn't be. To be quite frank, neither should drug dealing. I personally wish that law enforcement would do its job better. No one is saying that there shouldn't be consequences but that harsh punishments do not work. It didn't work in our history(you remember history lessons about sentences hundreds years ago), it doesn't work now(example was already given). Even death penalty doesn't work as several countries provide high enough numbers and people STILL DO IT! What KeSPA does is morally shit, it won't work and it's probably more than anything a gesture.
Morally wrong? To ask for damages done by criminals and cheaters? Again, you're too kind to people who don't have morals in the first place.
It's nice to take the moral high ground but in the end you're just asking for criminals to try again with light sentences. You're expecting a moral response out of people who aren't moral in the first place, which is ridiculous.
The obvious answer is to make people moral from the get-go. As well as to heavily punish those who are the root cause of criminal activity in the first place: brokers.
If the severity of the sentence is not actually effective in deterring crime, would you care to explain why murderers have heavier sentences than petty thieves?
Kespa here is trying to show that the weight of the crime of match-fixing isn't trivial or petty. It has real, severe consequences to the industry, but also to the integrity of eSports and competition. Why do you think doping is so serious in classic sports?
Match-fixing isn't trivial at all, that is the message which kespa is trying to get across.
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On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this?
It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented.
Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well).
The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really.
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So let's be clear here : they're not trying to get them sentenced to additional jail/fines, they're trying to get an indemnity from them, right?
Kespa's statement is really unclear on that.
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On April 08 2016 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:
So let's be clear here : they're not trying to get them sentenced to additional jail/fines, they're trying to get an indemnity from them, right?
Kespa's statement is really unclear on that.
Yes, it's a civil case
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On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this?
What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive.
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On April 08 2016 18:44 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:43 OtherWorld wrote:
So let's be clear here : they're not trying to get them sentenced to additional jail/fines, they're trying to get an indemnity from them, right?
Kespa's statement is really unclear on that. Yes, it's a civil case
Why comment that "the Assocation and e-Sports teams are extremely concerned that this decision is insufficient to thoroughly prevent copycat crimes", since that's a comment on the criminal case's verdict though? That's just bad PR writing.
I think they're justified with their attempt here, though I dunno what is considered "proof" enough that matchfixing hurts a scene.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:32 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 17:30 Incognoto wrote:On April 08 2016 17:10 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 17:07 swissman777 wrote:On April 08 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2016 16:38 boxerfred wrote:
Interestingly enough, KeSPA follows a punishment as a scare-off line which, from a moral point of view, is shit. And which doesn't work. reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking. Exactly this. Right because complacency towards dangerous criminals (which harm the lives of law-abiding citizens) or towards cheaters who do harm to an esport scene is the right attitude. You want to cheat everyone else? Fine, but you'd better be fucking ready when you face the consequences of your actions. It's not like Kespa is asking for death penalty or something here. They want to make it clear that match-fixing should not be taken lightly, as it shouldn't be. To be quite frank, neither should drug dealing. I personally wish that law enforcement would do its job better. No one is saying that there shouldn't be consequences but that harsh punishments do not work. It didn't work in our history(you remember history lessons about sentences hundreds years ago), it doesn't work now(example was already given). Even death penalty doesn't work as several countries provide high enough numbers and people STILL DO IT! What KeSPA does is morally shit, it won't work and it's probably more than anything a gesture. Morally wrong? To ask for damages done by criminals and cheaters? Again, you're too kind to people who don't have morals in the first place. It's nice to take the moral high ground but in the end you're just asking for criminals to try again with light sentences. You're expecting a moral response out of people who aren't moral in the first place, which is ridiculous. The obvious answer is to make people moral from the get-go. As well as to heavily punish those who are the root cause of criminal activity in the first place: brokers. If the severity of the sentence is not actually effective in deterring crime, would you care to explain why murderers have heavier sentences than petty thieves? Kespa here is trying to show that the weight of the crime of match-fixing isn't trivial or petty. It has real, severe consequences to the industry, but also to the integrity of eSports and competition. Why do you think doping is so serious in classic sports? Match-fixing isn't trivial at all, that is the message which kespa is trying to get across.
The statement says they are punishing them further to say "don't mess with KeSPA" message. This is a moral shit. Sorry you have a different view.
In other sports they don't punish them because of harsh punishment. They punish them with life ban and that's it. Nothing more. They already have a life ban...
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On April 08 2016 18:39 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented. Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well). The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really.
So am I to assume that the hundreds of thousands of other teenagers / young adults in Korea, again working in those comparable if not similar job positions, with similar incomes, similar work loads, should also be expected to cheat and steal and do whatever they want to make money as well? Are you really under the assumption that a person who chooses esports (again, CHOOSES since he has the luxury to do so) in South Korea - which has one of the highest HDI's in the world (17th), and a very respectable GDP per capita (36.5k), below average youth unemployment (only recently spiking to 12.5% while hovering at <10% the last year), very high GDP investment on education (7.6%) - forces young people into a life of crime?
On April 08 2016 18:46 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive.
That's why teams talk to the parents. You realize that right? Even for a team as big as KT recruiting someone like Flash can meet heavy resistance from parental guidance and disagreement. Teams do scouting and contracting just like any other professional sport. If you are going to criticize that then the whole system's busted, not Kespa.
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On April 08 2016 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:
The statement says they are punishing them further to say "don't mess with KeSPA" message. This is a moral shit. Sorry you have a different view.
To me their statement says "don't mess with the integrity of starcraft", which is indeed why KeSPA exists in the first place.
Match-fixing is serious as fuck, businesses are being ran and if the integrity of starcraft is attacked, then so are those businesses, as well as the people working there: progamers, casters, studios, etc.
:/
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 19:09 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:
The statement says they are punishing them further to say "don't mess with KeSPA" message. This is a moral shit. Sorry you have a different view.
To me their statement says "don't mess with the integrity of starcraft", which is indeed why KeSPA exists in the first place. Match-fixing is serious as fuck, businesses are being ran and if the integrity of starcraft is attacked, then so are those businesses, as well as the people working there: progamers, casters, studios, etc. :/
Not, that's why Blizzard exists, but that's just nitpicking.
A few days ago, a court decided to sentence those involved in the crime to suspended sentences and fines. However, the Assocation and e-Sports teams are extremely concerned that this decision is insufficient to thoroughly prevent copycat crimes,
This to me says "the sentence isn't hard enough, we have to punish them harder". Which is, from my view, wrong.
And as I said, they have to bring a proof the decline happened because of them and not because of, e.g., Ding It(nice example from the past ). So basically they are punishing them financially by the need of having a defending lawyer, because I hardly believe they will have a proper evidence of the damage done because of the match fixing. Unless they have a letter from some sponsor saying "your players match fixed thus FU, KeSPA" ...
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On April 08 2016 19:08 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:39 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented. Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well). The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really. So am I to assume that the hundreds of thousands of other teenagers / young adults in Korea, again working in those comparable if not similar job positions, with similar incomes, similar work loads, should also be expected to cheat and steal and do whatever they want to make money as well? Are you really under the assumption that a person who chooses esports (again, CHOOSES since he has the luxury to do so) in South Korea - which has one of the highest HDI's in the world (17th), and a very respectable GDP per capita (36.5k), below average youth unemployment (only recently spiking to 12.5% while hovering at <10% the last year), very high GDP investment on education (7.6%) - forces young people into a life of crime? Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:46 OtherWorld wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive. That's why teams talk to the parents. You realize that right? Even for a team as big as KT recruiting someone like Flash can meet heavy resistance from parental guidance and disagreement. Teams do scouting and contracting just like any other professional sport. If you are going to criticize that then the whole system's busted, not Kespa.
Yeah because children are perfect copies of their parents, that's right. They are different people, who maybe hold different values to different things. Values also change over time, meaning that a young pro who doesn't care about low salaries might learn to care about them two years in his career, once he realizes that he'll never be a StarLeague winner or his team's ace player. Meanwhile, parents, who know what low salaries is like, will maybe go along with it on the basis that "he knows what he's getting into", like you're doing. Matter of fact, they're not. Perception and values change over time.
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On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this?
You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. Minimum wage is less than $5 USD per hour. True minimum wage is even less because while they receive say 40 hours a week on paper, they're actually working 60+ hours a week with no extra pay, overtime, etc. A high school drop out will earn about $10,000-$12,000 a year. A University drop out will earn the same. What's even scarier? Tonnes of University graduates will earn the same as well. The job market is awful, opportunity is minimal, promotion is rare, and you basically have no rights as an employee. You need to share a half studio 3 towns away from your job just to afford living expenses. The consensus of the Korean population is that "this is that way it is, we can't do anything about it." The result is the term "Chosun Hell," the hatred of the chaebol, and all that other fun stuff.
This is definitely a result of low salaries. Korean Progamers sacrifice their high school and university education (and education is the end-all for Koreans), in order to attempt to get out of this bottom-of-barrel-scraping life. A couple people will do great and maybe open a restaurant or something like Flash plans. A bunch of guys on the Telecom teams and some stars will bank really solid paychecks and not blink at anything that would jeopardize their career. A lot will have above average salaries (Korean ones) and maybe prize money to BARELY hold them over until the transition to the next thing. Then you have guys who get zero salary. It would be amazing if they ever got to minimum wage. All they get is free rent and food while they slave away for their team, and maybe a few one-time dollars when their coach strikes a deal with a PC Bang or something. These guys (and the previous guys too), are the ones who see a guy waving $5000 in their face, half a year's salary or more money than they've ever seen, and they flinch. They see that they have no skills, will work in a crapper for the rest of their lives, have to save for 5-10 years to get that amount of cash after living expenses, and FLINCH.
While teams are paid by their sponsors, KeSPA can find creative solutions to make sure money is distributed more evenly. Raising the bottom line will definitely give Programers more hope and less incentive to throw away the nothing that they have in exchange for a few quick bucks.
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If the possible punishment was a deterrent, we would have significantly less crime in the world. This is just a vendetta against players who gave up their education to become pros and now have no income at all.
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On April 08 2016 19:08 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:39 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented. Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well). The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really. So am I to assume that the hundreds of thousands of other teenagers / young adults in Korea, again working in those comparable if not similar job positions, with similar incomes, similar work loads, should also be expected to cheat and steal and do whatever they want to make money as well? Are you really under the assumption that a person who chooses esports (again, CHOOSES since he has the luxury to do so) in South Korea - which has one of the highest HDI's in the world (17th), and a very respectable GDP per capita (36.5k), below average youth unemployment (only recently spiking to 12.5% while hovering at <10% the last year), very high GDP investment on education (7.6%) - forces young people into a life of crime? Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:46 OtherWorld wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive. That's why teams talk to the parents. You realize that right? Even for a team as big as KT recruiting someone like Flash can meet heavy resistance from parental guidance and disagreement. Teams do scouting and contracting just like any other professional sport. If you are going to criticize that then the whole system's busted, not Kespa.
Of course you are not to assume that, you're oversimplifying this. You have to compare inequality in the same sub culture to begin with (SC esports in this case).
You still seem to think I'm telling a sob story but I am not. I'm just being pragmatic; Reduce inequality and make sure income is high enough for people to support a decent existence and crime will go down. But it will not dissappear, there are other factors to consider. I never said they should only focus on this one just more .
And don't call people you try (I hope) to have a civil discussion with naive, doing that says more about you than the other.
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From a psyschological perspective, the crime or wrong you have done must be in line with the punishment.
If the punishment is to weak or to strong it has a bad effect.
From a psychological perspective if the punishment is in line with the crime or wrong you did, the person can learn from their mistake. If the punishment is to weak or to strong, they dont learn.
If the punishment is to strong, it might introduce fear. If the one person overcomes that fear, they can do it.
However, if the punishment is in line, there is no fear to overcome, the one person might not do the crime or wrong cuz of moral or something like it.
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I don't know everything about Kespa's role, but people are expecting way too much from them. Sc2 is either declining or barely holding, there are less tournaments in Korea, less interests, less viewers. Kespa can't just wave a magic wand and make sc2 great again. What they can do is go after the match fixers additionally and make them suffer.
While I think the penalties are good enough, I'm not going to feel sorry for any matchfixer/cheater.
I'd like to see studies which show that increased penalties don't lower crime because I'm sure they do in some cases. Any reasonable person (myself included) will look at the penalty when considering breaking the law and that will weigh into the decision. Keep in mind, Kespa might be privy to information that other match fixers are out there.
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On April 08 2016 21:26 Apoteosis wrote:
Where is Life?
i wish i knew
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The justice system of Korea is definitely beyond my understanding, why KeSPA was not part of the first trial on victim's side?
Isn't it meaning the match fixers will be judged twice for the same facts? What this new judgement will consist of, if they have already be found guilty?
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On April 08 2016 23:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
The justice system of Korea is definitely beyond my understanding, why KeSPA was not part of the first trial on victim's side?
Isn't it meaning the match fixers will be judged twice for the same facts? What this new judgement will consist of, if they have already be found guilty?
To pay for damages. A fine on top of their previous fines it will feel like for the match fixers.
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On April 08 2016 23:42 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 23:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
The justice system of Korea is definitely beyond my understanding, why KeSPA was not part of the first trial on victim's side?
Isn't it meaning the match fixers will be judged twice for the same facts? What this new judgement will consist of, if they have already be found guilty? To pay for damages. A fine on top of their previous fines it will feel like for the match fixers.
yeah I understand this, what I don't understand is why it's made as a reaction to the first judgement instead of asking for reparation in the first trial (with maybe an appeal if they're not happy with what they get in the first judgement)
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On April 08 2016 23:52 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 23:42 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 23:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
The justice system of Korea is definitely beyond my understanding, why KeSPA was not part of the first trial on victim's side?
Isn't it meaning the match fixers will be judged twice for the same facts? What this new judgement will consist of, if they have already be found guilty? To pay for damages. A fine on top of their previous fines it will feel like for the match fixers. yeah I understand this, what I don't understand is why it's made as a reaction to the first judgement instead of asking for reparation in the first trial (with maybe an appeal if they're not happy with what they get in the first judgement)
I guess they have that seperate from the criminal case (this new one would be a civil case). I know in the US you have this option too. But I'm no expert on this.
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On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. Minimum wage is less than $5 USD per hour. True minimum wage is even less because while they receive say 40 hours a week on paper, they're actually working 60+ hours a week with no extra pay, overtime, etc. A high school drop out will earn about $10,000-$12,000 a year. A University drop out will earn the same. What's even scarier? Tonnes of University graduates will earn the same as well. The job market is awful, opportunity is minimal, promotion is rare, and you basically have no rights as an employee. You need to share a half studio 3 towns away from your job just to afford living expenses. The consensus of the Korean population is that "this is that way it is, we can't do anything about it." The result is the term "Chosun Hell," the hatred of the chaebol, and all that other fun stuff. This is definitely a result of low salaries. Korean Progamers sacrifice their high school and university education (and education is the end-all for Koreans), in order to attempt to get out of this bottom-of-barrel-scraping life. A couple people will do great and maybe open a restaurant or something like Flash plans. A bunch of guys on the Telecom teams and some stars will bank really solid paychecks and not blink at anything that would jeopardize their career. A lot will have above average salaries (Korean ones) and maybe prize money to BARELY hold them over until the transition to the next thing. Then you have guys who get zero salary. It would be amazing if they ever got to minimum wage. All they get is free rent and food while they slave away for their team, and maybe a few one-time dollars when their coach strikes a deal with a PC Bang or something. These guys (and the previous guys too), are the ones who see a guy waving $5000 in their face, half a year's salary or more money than they've ever seen, and they flinch. They see that they have no skills, will work in a crapper for the rest of their lives, have to save for 5-10 years to get that amount of cash after living expenses, and FLINCH. While teams are paid by their sponsors, KeSPA can find creative solutions to make sure money is distributed more evenly. Raising the bottom line will definitely give Programers more hope and less incentive to throw away the nothing that they have in exchange for a few quick bucks.
Lol, that certainly puts things into perspective.
What's up with Korea if it's in such a sorry state? I'm guessing unemployment is low, I guess. :/
Edit: just to answer to this: Not, that's why Blizzard exists, but that's just nitpicking.
kespa actually existed with the goal of providing starcraft with protection/organization since before blizzard even announced starcraft 2. i think kespa is legitimate in their cause to protect the integrity of starcraft
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Suing judgment-proof people is an exercise in futility.
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On April 08 2016 23:58 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. Minimum wage is less than $5 USD per hour. True minimum wage is even less because while they receive say 40 hours a week on paper, they're actually working 60+ hours a week with no extra pay, overtime, etc. A high school drop out will earn about $10,000-$12,000 a year. A University drop out will earn the same. What's even scarier? Tonnes of University graduates will earn the same as well. The job market is awful, opportunity is minimal, promotion is rare, and you basically have no rights as an employee. You need to share a half studio 3 towns away from your job just to afford living expenses. The consensus of the Korean population is that "this is that way it is, we can't do anything about it." The result is the term "Chosun Hell," the hatred of the chaebol, and all that other fun stuff. This is definitely a result of low salaries. Korean Progamers sacrifice their high school and university education (and education is the end-all for Koreans), in order to attempt to get out of this bottom-of-barrel-scraping life. A couple people will do great and maybe open a restaurant or something like Flash plans. A bunch of guys on the Telecom teams and some stars will bank really solid paychecks and not blink at anything that would jeopardize their career. A lot will have above average salaries (Korean ones) and maybe prize money to BARELY hold them over until the transition to the next thing. Then you have guys who get zero salary. It would be amazing if they ever got to minimum wage. All they get is free rent and food while they slave away for their team, and maybe a few one-time dollars when their coach strikes a deal with a PC Bang or something. These guys (and the previous guys too), are the ones who see a guy waving $5000 in their face, half a year's salary or more money than they've ever seen, and they flinch. They see that they have no skills, will work in a crapper for the rest of their lives, have to save for 5-10 years to get that amount of cash after living expenses, and FLINCH. While teams are paid by their sponsors, KeSPA can find creative solutions to make sure money is distributed more evenly. Raising the bottom line will definitely give Programers more hope and less incentive to throw away the nothing that they have in exchange for a few quick bucks. Lol, that certainly puts things into perspective. What's up with Korea if it's in such a sorry state? I'm guessing unemployment is low, I guess. :/ Edit: just to answer to this: kespa actually existed with the goal of providing starcraft with protection/organization since before blizzard even announced starcraft 2. i think kespa is legitimate in their cause to protect the integrity of starcraft
South Korea made an enormous development jump in very little time. The hope is they'll fix their social problems in the near future but there's room for pessimism in that regard. From what I understand is that the country is basically led by big companies (Samsung) and it's not necessarily in their best interest to tackle these problems.
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On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. Minimum wage is less than $5 USD per hour. True minimum wage is even less because while they receive say 40 hours a week on paper, they're actually working 60+ hours a week with no extra pay, overtime, etc. A high school drop out will earn about $10,000-$12,000 a year. A University drop out will earn the same. What's even scarier? Tonnes of University graduates will earn the same as well. The job market is awful, opportunity is minimal, promotion is rare, and you basically have no rights as an employee. You need to share a half studio 3 towns away from your job just to afford living expenses. The consensus of the Korean population is that "this is that way it is, we can't do anything about it." The result is the term "Chosun Hell," the hatred of the chaebol, and all that other fun stuff. This is definitely a result of low salaries. Korean Progamers sacrifice their high school and university education (and education is the end-all for Koreans), in order to attempt to get out of this bottom-of-barrel-scraping life. A couple people will do great and maybe open a restaurant or something like Flash plans. A bunch of guys on the Telecom teams and some stars will bank really solid paychecks and not blink at anything that would jeopardize their career. A lot will have above average salaries (Korean ones) and maybe prize money to BARELY hold them over until the transition to the next thing. Then you have guys who get zero salary. It would be amazing if they ever got to minimum wage. All they get is free rent and food while they slave away for their team, and maybe a few one-time dollars when their coach strikes a deal with a PC Bang or something. These guys (and the previous guys too), are the ones who see a guy waving $5000 in their face, half a year's salary or more money than they've ever seen, and they flinch. They see that they have no skills, will work in a crapper for the rest of their lives, have to save for 5-10 years to get that amount of cash after living expenses, and FLINCH. While teams are paid by their sponsors, KeSPA can find creative solutions to make sure money is distributed more evenly. Raising the bottom line will definitely give Programers more hope and less incentive to throw away the nothing that they have in exchange for a few quick bucks.
NO, you're wrong! You are just spouting Japanese propaganda, RoninKenshin-san. All my K-pop videos show that Korean standard of living is great! Oppai Gangnam Style!
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how much money do they want to waste in legal fees for a largely pointless gesture.
the issue isn't that match fixing is not considered a risk in terms of how severe the punishment is for players (you're pretty much fucked for the rest of your life...), it's that so many players are so poor financially that the risk seems more and more palpable.
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On April 08 2016 16:30 Waxangel wrote:
Apparently KeSPA jail was actually eternal financial ruin
Does this mean that Life is in the Kespa Gulag working in the Esport mines and that's why no one can find him?
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United States33228 Posts
They shoulda done this to Savior instead D:
The fact that he's very publicly streaming and getting along relatively fine (at least from the outside) sets an awful example.
In that regard, I think one of the most important deterrents was actually established a few months ago, when KeSPA (and maybe Blizzard?!) got Afreeca to ban match-fixers from streaming official KeSPA games.
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
Great! In debt for the next few years and a ban for current line of work? Great!
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On April 09 2016 02:50 Waxangel wrote:
They shoulda done this to Savior instead D:
The fact that he's very publicly streaming and getting along relatively fine (at least from the outside) sets an awful example.
I dunno, Asian culture seems bigger on being ridiculously punitive to show that those doing the punishing are morally distanced from the guilty part's actions rather than actually fixing issues. That encourages a system where people learn to act out a moral play when in public. But if you are super-type A person like Savior seems to be and say "F*ck the system" and ignore that society expects you to act like a pariah always asking for forgiveness (or disappearing to become a nobody) for the rest of your life, then there's not a lot anyone can do about you besides whine that you aren't acting your part.
Therefore KESPA can't really do anything to Savior because Savior does whatever Savior wants.
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On April 08 2016 23:56 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 23:52 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 08 2016 23:42 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 23:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
The justice system of Korea is definitely beyond my understanding, why KeSPA was not part of the first trial on victim's side?
Isn't it meaning the match fixers will be judged twice for the same facts? What this new judgement will consist of, if they have already be found guilty? To pay for damages. A fine on top of their previous fines it will feel like for the match fixers. yeah I understand this, what I don't understand is why it's made as a reaction to the first judgement instead of asking for reparation in the first trial (with maybe an appeal if they're not happy with what they get in the first judgement) I guess they have that seperate from the criminal case (this new one would be a civil case). I know in the US you have this option too. But I'm no expert on this.
Aren't civil and criminal cases always separate?
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On April 09 2016 07:59 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 23:56 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 23:52 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 08 2016 23:42 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 23:20 Gwavajuice wrote:
The justice system of Korea is definitely beyond my understanding, why KeSPA was not part of the first trial on victim's side?
Isn't it meaning the match fixers will be judged twice for the same facts? What this new judgement will consist of, if they have already be found guilty? To pay for damages. A fine on top of their previous fines it will feel like for the match fixers. yeah I understand this, what I don't understand is why it's made as a reaction to the first judgement instead of asking for reparation in the first trial (with maybe an appeal if they're not happy with what they get in the first judgement) I guess they have that seperate from the criminal case (this new one would be a civil case). I know in the US you have this option too. But I'm no expert on this. Aren't civil and criminal cases always separate?
Yes but I'm not sure you can have both a civil trial and a criminal trial for the same offence in every country. Apparently in South Korea at least you can. (With "seperate" I meant the damages part)
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According to the principals of double jeopardy, KESPA should not hand down any punishment that the court could have. A ban from esports does not fall under this though. (Not that I'm implying those principals will actually be followed).
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On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea. Minimum wage is less than $5 USD per hour. True minimum wage is even less because while they receive say 40 hours a week on paper, they're actually working 60+ hours a week with no extra pay, overtime, etc. A high school drop out will earn about $10,000-$12,000 a year. A University drop out will earn the same. What's even scarier? Tonnes of University graduates will earn the same as well. The job market is awful, opportunity is minimal, promotion is rare, and you basically have no rights as an employee. You need to share a half studio 3 towns away from your job just to afford living expenses. The consensus of the Korean population is that "this is that way it is, we can't do anything about it." The result is the term "Chosun Hell," the hatred of the chaebol, and all that other fun stuff.
Plenty just walk away from their situation and take their skills overseas, Korea has one of the highest "Brain Drain" for a reason. But just wait for the aging population to vitalize the job market, it won't be too long until Korea has the same problem as Japan eventually leading to a surplus immigration. Japan has a really strong job market right now because of their aging population, their "brain drain" compared to a decade ago has improved drastically. There are some signs of it already, immigration has been growing over the half decade. Living expenses through the roof, but that is why many Koreans live with their parents until marriage and even post marriage. Even with all these problems, it is miles ahead of the conditions in China, South East Asia, basically every Far East country other than Japan. In another decade, when a large portion of the work force nears retirement, Korea will face similar job boons as Japan.
Chaebol system is a seriously problem, but more and more wealthy are following the western examples of donating instead of inheritance. I'm sure after international affairs settle down more progressive reforms will come.
PS. most universities outside of the "top three" aren't very established in the job market and have been founded very recently. Considering that they are hardly much better than technical schools, it isn't hard to see why many of their grads can't get a good return on their education.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49986 Posts
On April 09 2016 02:50 Waxangel wrote:
They shoulda done this to Savior instead D:
The fact that he's very publicly streaming and getting along relatively fine (at least from the outside) sets an awful example.
In that regard, I think one of the most important deterrents was actually established a few months ago, when KeSPA (and maybe Blizzard?!) got Afreeca to ban match-fixers from streaming official KeSPA games.
I thought he deleted his afreeca account last august?
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Is it just me or shouldn't Kespa share some of the responsibility for letting this happen.
Some adults on their team influenced their kids to make bad decisions. So Kespa failed in protecting it's own kids. They are making these kids out to be the scapegoats of their failings.
Also, I don't think the effect of match fixers on the game is as drastic as they say. Not to long ago there was a scandal where NBA refs were fixing games,(it was actually 2007) the NBA is as popular as ever right now. People are able to understand the difference between the actions of some individuals and the game as a whole. I don't see where these kids have cause irreparable damage. In fact, I completely forgot about this while watching the NA/EU qualifiers and now thanks to them and this front page news article I have remembered.
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On April 09 2016 03:11 HornyHerring wrote:
Great! In debt for the next few years and a ban for current line of work? Great!
Should've thought about that before they tried to scam people out of their money. Karma's a bitch, well deserved imo.
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On April 09 2016 17:39 Korakys wrote:
According to the principals of double jeopardy, KESPA should not hand down any punishment that the court could have. A ban from esports does not fall under this though. (Not that I'm implying those principals will actually be followed).
In general double jeopardy does not apply if the first charge is criminal and the second civil. Not sure about Korean law specifically.
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match-fixing has not and will not influence e-sports negatively. However, the design of starcraft 2 will
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On April 08 2016 19:09 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:
The statement says they are punishing them further to say "don't mess with KeSPA" message. This is a moral shit. Sorry you have a different view.
To me their statement says "don't mess with the integrity of starcraft", which is indeed why KeSPA exists in the first place. Match-fixing is serious as fuck, businesses are being ran and if the integrity of starcraft is attacked, then so are those businesses, as well as the people working there: progamers, casters, studios, etc. :/
It's really not serious though. You're talking about kids playing video games for money, maybe if they are lucky enough money to live at the poverty line, and that's only if you're the best of the best.
The integrity of most "businesses" is a joke. Banks take advantages of people all the time to earn a buck, would you call that an attack on people? And rarely will these institutions get more than a slap on the wrist for anything they do. Kespa is no better, everything they do is to turn a profit.
Murder, assault, armed robbery, these are seriously impactful things that really hurt people. The criminal sentences they received were fine, and a lifetime ban from the sport is all the deterrent they could ever hope for. Anyone who wants to make a career in esports would probably not cross that line, making them spend a year in jail or taking their money will just fuck up mentally and fuck their lives.
This game and the integrity of this esports isn't worth fucking up one person's life for making a mistake, period.
There was a time when this game and the scene around it really shined, and I felt like it brought people together, but those days are gone as far as I can tell.
In this day and age it feels more like a vampire trying to suck the blood/money out of every last bit of the scene.
Maybe it needs to die and be reborn, like Brood war.
When I tune into TL it feels like I'm turning on CNN. My stomach feels sick reading most of the news, the other half just really isn't interesting or relevant anymore.
(Ps. I was a hardcore fan from day one.)
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This is an ultimately pointless gesture, just ban anyone convicted of match fixing from all competitive esports for life and move on. The players reputation has already taken enough of a hit etc. and being forced to pay back any ill gotten gains plus a lifetime ban from esports is enough punishment.
I do think Gerrard should receive more punishment than anyone else caught in the scandal though as a coach has a position of power over the players.
Honestly I believe (based on my own personal opinion only) that Kespa knew match fixing was going on all along and did their best to cover it up and deny due to the 'honour' culture and the shame that players caught match fixing in their league would bring to their organisation and are now trying to overcompensate as more players are being caught. There are still players in proleague who are likely to have matchfixed in my opinion although I will grant that I think a lot less matchfixing is going on in SC2 compared to a year or two ago and the players who I think fixed have mostly disappeared from the scene either of their own accord or through their teams forcing them out quietly. Those that remain have been scared into not fixing anymore at least as far as I can tell. That said, i'm not following the esports scene as closely as I was and only watch one or two matches a week and don't always monitor all of the line movement, and besides I assume the fixers would have moved away from public sportsbooks where lines are public knowledge as that's most of why they got caught (along with certain players being incompetent at trying to lose matches and not make it look suspicious).
Kespa are not serious about cleaning house though, they're interested interested in covering their own asses and looking like the good guys. Personally while I continue to watch proleague I have no respect for the kespa organisation itself anymore. They had their chance to handle this well originally when the first scandal broke and they failed miserably. The only reason Kespa is taking ANY action is out of self interest.
Odds of tempban for post this time: 5-1. I think I did ok?
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On April 12 2016 19:45 Swoopae wrote:
Odds of tempban for post this time: 5-1. I think I did ok?
I'm pretty sure that martyrs' odds are higher than that.
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On April 08 2016 19:27 RoninKenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? You definitely don't know anything about the state of South Korea.
I've lived in Asia for just about 16 years combined. I do know what I'm talking about. Prospects are shitty, but it's uniformly shitty. I'm objecting to the idea that you should give esports progamers more leeway than other people working in comparable salaries and prospects. Chances are if you do something that royally fucks with any profession or field (as matchfixing is doing to SC) you are getting blackballed, especially in conservative and large corporations in Korea and Japan. Whether or not that's right or wrong is an entirely different story.
I've been with people from the semi-pro (since there's no real pro scene any more) BW scene and tangentially the SC2 scene in China; prospects are way shittier there yet I never see people using that as some excuse for matchfixing. My perspective isn't just based in South Korea. I'm well aware of the generational gap, the oppressive environment, the aspirational marketting, and the high suicide rates. That being said no employer in Korea or Japan (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) should employ on a basis expecting young adults to cheat them and make money on the side.
Do I want progamers to get better treatment and monetary compensation? Yes.
Do I think better monetary compensation will discourage criminal action? Yes, but only to a degree. Players should be entitled to wages that allow them to afford a good standard of living, but beyond that I doubt there is any positive correlation. Alot of the matchfixers in BW were the most fortunate and promoted rising stars of their respective teams. Some of the best paid athletes in the world turn out to be cheats and ringleaders.
Do I think progamers are fortunate in their positions compared to their peers of equal educational backgrounds, and taking into account the actual physical strain and work conditions they are in? Yes.
Do I think Kespa is with in their right to file civil action against the matchfixers? Yes.
Do I think Kespa are being scumbags doing so? Yes and no. I'm just going to assume that there's also social and financial pressure from sponsors to Kespa to keep this whole matchfixing thing under control and this is one of the best PR moves that they can make.
The social platforms are simply not in place to account for post retirement athletes in general. Athletes in almost every field faces this same problem and it's not an easy problem to solve either. If multi-billion dollar industries haven't been able to properly take care of their athletes I really don't have high hopes for Kespa coming up with some novel solution in a relatively new field that doesn't have many social platforms yet.
On April 08 2016 19:26 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 19:08 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:39 Penev wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented. Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well). The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really. So am I to assume that the hundreds of thousands of other teenagers / young adults in Korea, again working in those comparable if not similar job positions, with similar incomes, similar work loads, should also be expected to cheat and steal and do whatever they want to make money as well? Are you really under the assumption that a person who chooses esports (again, CHOOSES since he has the luxury to do so) in South Korea - which has one of the highest HDI's in the world (17th), and a very respectable GDP per capita (36.5k), below average youth unemployment (only recently spiking to 12.5% while hovering at <10% the last year), very high GDP investment on education (7.6%) - forces young people into a life of crime? On April 08 2016 18:46 OtherWorld wrote:On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote:On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote:
They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive. That's why teams talk to the parents. You realize that right? Even for a team as big as KT recruiting someone like Flash can meet heavy resistance from parental guidance and disagreement. Teams do scouting and contracting just like any other professional sport. If you are going to criticize that then the whole system's busted, not Kespa. Yeah because children are perfect copies of their parents, that's right. They are different people, who maybe hold different values to different things. Values also change over time, meaning that a young pro who doesn't care about low salaries might learn to care about them two years in his career, once he realizes that he'll never be a StarLeague winner or his team's ace player. Meanwhile, parents, who know what low salaries is like, will maybe go along with it on the basis that "he knows what he's getting into", like you're doing. Matter of fact, they're not. Perception and values change over time.
That's the same as every other job and profession. As much as I might personally want there to be leeway for Esports athletes because I care about them, they are already getting special treatment in this regard. Personally I think it's shitty in the first place that biology pretty much dictates for many sports and competitive events that you are at your peak performance when you don't possess the knowledge, experience, and mental capacities to make proper decisions. This pretty much makes any esports and sporting leagues innately exploitative on young talent while funneling money to executives who only care about their bottom line (see NCAA, FIFA, etc).
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EPT
