EPTKeSPA to pursue legal action against PRIME match-fixers -…
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swissman777
1106 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 17:07 swissman777 wrote: reminds me of US attitude towards drug trafficking. Exactly this. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37043 Posts
FTFL | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Right because complacency towards dangerous criminals (which harm the lives of law-abiding citizens) or towards cheaters who do harm to an esport scene is the right attitude. You want to cheat everyone else? Fine, but you'd better be fucking ready when you face the consequences of your actions. It's not like Kespa is asking for death penalty or something here. They want to make it clear that match-fixing should not be taken lightly, as it shouldn't be. To be quite frank, neither should drug dealing. I personally wish that law enforcement would do its job better. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 17:30 Incognoto wrote: Right because complacency towards dangerous criminals (which harm the lives of law-abiding citizens) or towards cheaters who do harm to an esport scene is the right attitude. You want to cheat everyone else? Fine, but you'd better be fucking ready when you face the consequences of your actions. It's not like Kespa is asking for death penalty or something here. They want to make it clear that match-fixing should not be taken lightly, as it shouldn't be. To be quite frank, neither should drug dealing. I personally wish that law enforcement would do its job better. No one is saying that there shouldn't be consequences but that harsh punishments do not work. It didn't work in our history(you remember history lessons about sentences hundreds years ago), it doesn't work now(example was already given). Even death penalty doesn't work as several countries provide high enough numbers and people STILL DO IT! What KeSPA does is morally shit, it won't work and it's probably more than anything a gesture. | ||
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nachtkap
Germany195 Posts
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Sort of embarrassing, Kespa. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
By harsher sentences you get nothing (Youd think we would have learned that over the mileania, but seems humans aint as smart as we think we are). Lets see... in Politics, politicians are corrupt because they first get sponsored then they got the power to help their sponsors. SO, you take that power away, and there is no incentive. In Match-fixing, the incentive comes from players getting paid to throw matches, and the brokers benefit from winning more money. SO, if people stop betting money on E-Sports, the brokers has no incentive to ask anyone to match-fix (this is probably NOT gonna happen, so lets look for another solution). If people are betting, lets assume that brokers WILL match-fix, since its human nature to try to cheat others for personal benefit (Dating sort of proves it every day): SO, how can we separate the incentive for either brokers or players to "mutually benefit" at the expense of others... I dont think we can in this instance. If people are betting and we cant separate brokers from players (and those are the only 2 factors that are "required" in order for there to be an Incentive to match-fix), you will always have the threat of match-fixing. Betting and gambling always had strong ties to criminal actors, because where there is a lot of money changing hands, you can make a fortune quick (Banks are a good example). | ||
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Penev
28503 Posts
These people are dealt with and already charged to pay big fines. This is just more fake security to try to appease the pitchforkers. They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:08 Penev wrote: They should focus more on improving the money distribution in their organization if they want to limit the chances for match fixing to happen. I say limit because completely stopping it will be close to impossible obviously. How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On April 08 2016 17:45 deacon.frost wrote: No one is saying that there shouldn't be consequences but that harsh punishments do not work. It didn't work in our history(you remember history lessons about sentences hundreds years ago), it doesn't work now(example was already given). Even death penalty doesn't work as several countries provide high enough numbers and people STILL DO IT! What KeSPA does is morally shit, it won't work and it's probably more than anything a gesture. Morally wrong? To ask for damages done by criminals and cheaters? Again, you're too kind to people who don't have morals in the first place. It's nice to take the moral high ground but in the end you're just asking for criminals to try again with light sentences. You're expecting a moral response out of people who aren't moral in the first place, which is ridiculous. The obvious answer is to make people moral from the get-go. As well as to heavily punish those who are the root cause of criminal activity in the first place: brokers. If the severity of the sentence is not actually effective in deterring crime, would you care to explain why murderers have heavier sentences than petty thieves? Kespa here is trying to show that the weight of the crime of match-fixing isn't trivial or petty. It has real, severe consequences to the industry, but also to the integrity of eSports and competition. Why do you think doping is so serious in classic sports? Match-fixing isn't trivial at all, that is the message which kespa is trying to get across. | ||
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Penev
28503 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote: How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented. Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well). The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
Kespa's statement is really unclear on that. | ||
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Penev
28503 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:43 OtherWorld wrote: So let's be clear here : they're not trying to get them sentenced to additional jail/fines, they're trying to get an indemnity from them, right? Kespa's statement is really unclear on that. Yes, it's a civil case | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:18 Caihead wrote: How much money do A-teamers make on a SC2 team compared to if they were high school drop outs working the same intensity jobs with the same hours? I'm not buying the sob story that this is the fault of low salaries. Going into progaming is almost definitely a conscious choice, it's not like your life's in the shit hole and you are forced to play SC2 to feed yourself. Teams go through trouble just to sign people on because time is spent negotiating with the parents to make sure they would even allow it (I'm pretty sure Flash's parents took ALOT of convincing for him to even play on a team). I highly doubt even in S. Korea that going to play Starcraft (or any other game for that matter) for a living is some default bottom of the barrel dead-end job. If the salaries of doing the same type of work in the same type of environment (offices, bunk beds, team houses, entertainment industry, media industry, etc) is comparable then I don't see how you can blame Kespa for anything. Don't the teams get budgets from their sponsors? What leverage does Kespa really have to get more money to the teams other than PR stunts like this? What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
Why comment that "the Assocation and e-Sports teams are extremely concerned that this decision is insufficient to thoroughly prevent copycat crimes", since that's a comment on the criminal case's verdict though? That's just bad PR writing. I think they're justified with their attempt here, though I dunno what is considered "proof" enough that matchfixing hurts a scene. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:32 Incognoto wrote: Morally wrong? To ask for damages done by criminals and cheaters? Again, you're too kind to people who don't have morals in the first place. It's nice to take the moral high ground but in the end you're just asking for criminals to try again with light sentences. You're expecting a moral response out of people who aren't moral in the first place, which is ridiculous. The obvious answer is to make people moral from the get-go. As well as to heavily punish those who are the root cause of criminal activity in the first place: brokers. If the severity of the sentence is not actually effective in deterring crime, would you care to explain why murderers have heavier sentences than petty thieves? Kespa here is trying to show that the weight of the crime of match-fixing isn't trivial or petty. It has real, severe consequences to the industry, but also to the integrity of eSports and competition. Why do you think doping is so serious in classic sports? Match-fixing isn't trivial at all, that is the message which kespa is trying to get across. The statement says they are punishing them further to say "don't mess with KeSPA" message. This is a moral shit. Sorry you have a different view. In other sports they don't punish them because of harsh punishment. They punish them with life ban and that's it. Nothing more. They already have a life ban... | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On April 08 2016 18:39 Penev wrote: It's not a sob story it's criminal science. The correlation between income, inequality and crime is well documented. Edit: As is the ineffectiveness, contra effectiveness even, of harsher punishments (allthough punishments can be too light as well). The reason there's so much crime in the US compared to other developed countries is because of the worse social systems it has. The high sentences are born out of anger over these crimes but they make matters only worse and are in quite a few cases inhumane, really. So am I to assume that the hundreds of thousands of other teenagers / young adults in Korea, again working in those comparable if not similar job positions, with similar incomes, similar work loads, should also be expected to cheat and steal and do whatever they want to make money as well? Are you really under the assumption that a person who chooses esports (again, CHOOSES since he has the luxury to do so) in South Korea - which has one of the highest HDI's in the world (17th), and a very respectable GDP per capita (36.5k), below average youth unemployment (only recently spiking to 12.5% while hovering at <10% the last year), very high GDP investment on education (7.6%) - forces young people into a life of crime? On April 08 2016 18:46 OtherWorld wrote: What you perceive a job to be like before you take it and what the job actually is once you're in the system are very different thing. Thinking that a teenager who goes into progaming has perfect knowledge of what his life is really going to be like - he probably doesn't even know the difference 500 additional dollars per month make on life, since he never lived autonomously - and thus should somehow love the low salaries and absurd training regimen in the name of "it's passion, he knew it" is really, really naive. That's why teams talk to the parents. You realize that right? Even for a team as big as KT recruiting someone like Flash can meet heavy resistance from parental guidance and disagreement. Teams do scouting and contracting just like any other professional sport. If you are going to criticize that then the whole system's busted, not Kespa. | ||
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