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On March 25 2016 13:57 avilo wrote:
Blizzard should re-consider combining mech air and ground upgrades. Armories should go to brood war price (100/50).
Liberator is only unit keeping Terran playable atm. I think it's OP but there's no other good anti-air unit with splash that T has ever since raven/seeker was nerfed. With liberators sucking...and ravens being unusable it's not a good thing for T imo.
Mech viability? Mech is still pretty bad...thor change might help or it might be so negligible to do nothing and then mech still sucks for another 6+ months =/
Banshee change is nice...but to be honest...it's really, really arbitrary. Like no Terran is going to argue that they don't want that...it's just it's completely random. Why don't they address mech issues more focused like cyclones being garbage....thors vs capital ships...and air units in general being OP.
Imo...liberators should not be nerfed unless tempests, broods, bcs, and carriers are all also nerfed at the same time. You cannot nerf just one races OP air unit. All of those units imo deserve supply increases.
Think about this. If liberators were 4 supply, instead of 3, if tempests were 8 supply instead of 4...if ravens/vipers were 3/4 supply respectively, and broodlords 6 supply...there will be less of these OP air units on the map in a maxed 200/200 army, and the person that focuses on ground units will have an advantage and be able to force action.
Air units inherently are OP in HOTS/LOTV. And that is not how the game should be because air units have the inherent advantage of FLYING. Meaning a lot of the units in the game cannot shoot up and the game becomes "do i have enough anti-air units to kill those? If i don't, all of my ground units are negligible, i must mass air myself."
I think all air still needs a nerf in supply. I've made countless threads about it on TL...but yeah a liberator nerf without nerfing other races corresponding lategame bullshit air is a really, really bad idea imo.
I actually agree on air units in general. Either air should be nerfed globally, or anti air should be buffed globally. Air should never truly be "game enders" except in rare cases that the ground units are able to completely prevent the ground units from getting in range.
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Liberator nerf with no tank buff is absolutely retarded. The Liberator was only used TvP. Why not just buff Stalker anti-air instead?
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So,
Liberator current ability effective area: 78.539 (radius 5)
proposed nerfed effective area: 50.265 (radius 4)
effective area reduced by: 36% Thirty freaking six %
The question is: does DK and the "rest" of balance team have a clue about what their doing ? It doesn't seems like.
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Ah damn. I love the Thor how it is. I always used to play Thors instead of Liberators. Might have to switch to liberators now 
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I keep getting suprised we never discuss Nydus or Ultras
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Okay, it's official. Blizzard has no fucking idea about what they're doing. I mean really, banshee speed armory required for 100/100 ? That's like the 30 dmg zealot charge.
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I like most of the changes.
What confuses me is that of all races they want to buff Terran's midgame and nerf the lategame by making banshee speed available earlier but weakening the liberator overall.
Isn't Terran already the race that's powerful in the midgame but tends to fall behind once the ultimate armies (mass tempest/storm, mass viper/corruptor/ultra) have been out for a while?
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On March 25 2016 13:57 avilo wrote:
Blizzard should re-consider combining mech air and ground upgrades. Armories should go to brood war price (100/50).
Liberator is only unit keeping Terran playable atm. I think it's OP but there's no other good anti-air unit with splash that T has ever since raven/seeker was nerfed. With liberators sucking...and ravens being unusable it's not a good thing for T imo.
Mech viability? Mech is still pretty bad...thor change might help or it might be so negligible to do nothing and then mech still sucks for another 6+ months =/
Banshee change is nice...but to be honest...it's really, really arbitrary. Like no Terran is going to argue that they don't want that...it's just it's completely random. Why don't they address mech issues more focused like cyclones being garbage....thors vs capital ships...and air units in general being OP.
Imo...liberators should not be nerfed unless tempests, broods, bcs, and carriers are all also nerfed at the same time. You cannot nerf just one races OP air unit. All of those units imo deserve supply increases.
Think about this. If liberators were 4 supply, instead of 3, if tempests were 8 supply instead of 4...if ravens/vipers were 3/4 supply respectively, and broodlords 6 supply...there will be less of these OP air units on the map in a maxed 200/200 army, and the person that focuses on ground units will have an advantage and be able to force action.
Air units inherently are OP in HOTS/LOTV. And that is not how the game should be because air units have the inherent advantage of FLYING. Meaning a lot of the units in the game cannot shoot up and the game becomes "do i have enough anti-air units to kill those? If i don't, all of my ground units are negligible, i must mass air myself."
I think all air still needs a nerf in supply. I've made countless threads about it on TL...but yeah a liberator nerf without nerfing other races corresponding lategame bullshit air is a really, really bad idea imo.
Totally agree with the nerfs to air units. I guess they like air because these units have more movement options and they are obsessed with action-action speed-speed. But most of the fun comes i think from unit interactions, and air vs air is the worst unit interaction possible.
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On March 25 2016 09:13 PressureSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
also, Avilo did more than whine. he created his own test map. you have to respect people who put time and effort into improving the game. Yes. And even though some may dislike Avilo he is right on most of what he puts out there and blizzard eventually gets to it 2 years later. (swarmhosts, warpins, blink all ins, parasitic bomb, and now the Thor and Cyclone sucking in LOTV). So now we just wait 2 years for Avilo's call on Ovie drops, 4 supply tempest and tankivacs ruining the TvT? Diablo 3 became great after the community all quit demanding some redesign - I hope we can get some initiative on more issues before too long. A year to finish design changes is way too long in 2016.
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On March 25 2016 18:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 13:57 avilo wrote:
Blizzard should re-consider combining mech air and ground upgrades. Armories should go to brood war price (100/50).
Liberator is only unit keeping Terran playable atm. I think it's OP but there's no other good anti-air unit with splash that T has ever since raven/seeker was nerfed. With liberators sucking...and ravens being unusable it's not a good thing for T imo.
Mech viability? Mech is still pretty bad...thor change might help or it might be so negligible to do nothing and then mech still sucks for another 6+ months =/
Banshee change is nice...but to be honest...it's really, really arbitrary. Like no Terran is going to argue that they don't want that...it's just it's completely random. Why don't they address mech issues more focused like cyclones being garbage....thors vs capital ships...and air units in general being OP.
Imo...liberators should not be nerfed unless tempests, broods, bcs, and carriers are all also nerfed at the same time. You cannot nerf just one races OP air unit. All of those units imo deserve supply increases.
Think about this. If liberators were 4 supply, instead of 3, if tempests were 8 supply instead of 4...if ravens/vipers were 3/4 supply respectively, and broodlords 6 supply...there will be less of these OP air units on the map in a maxed 200/200 army, and the person that focuses on ground units will have an advantage and be able to force action.
Air units inherently are OP in HOTS/LOTV. And that is not how the game should be because air units have the inherent advantage of FLYING. Meaning a lot of the units in the game cannot shoot up and the game becomes "do i have enough anti-air units to kill those? If i don't, all of my ground units are negligible, i must mass air myself."
I think all air still needs a nerf in supply. I've made countless threads about it on TL...but yeah a liberator nerf without nerfing other races corresponding lategame bullshit air is a really, really bad idea imo. Totally agree with the nerfs to air units. I guess they like air because these units have more movement options and they are obsessed with action-action speed-speed. But most of the fun comes i think from unit interactions, and air vs air is the worst unit interaction possible.
actually no. if both players start massing air units there isn't really much action going on...
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On March 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 18:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:On March 25 2016 13:57 avilo wrote:
Blizzard should re-consider combining mech air and ground upgrades. Armories should go to brood war price (100/50).
Liberator is only unit keeping Terran playable atm. I think it's OP but there's no other good anti-air unit with splash that T has ever since raven/seeker was nerfed. With liberators sucking...and ravens being unusable it's not a good thing for T imo.
Mech viability? Mech is still pretty bad...thor change might help or it might be so negligible to do nothing and then mech still sucks for another 6+ months =/
Banshee change is nice...but to be honest...it's really, really arbitrary. Like no Terran is going to argue that they don't want that...it's just it's completely random. Why don't they address mech issues more focused like cyclones being garbage....thors vs capital ships...and air units in general being OP.
Imo...liberators should not be nerfed unless tempests, broods, bcs, and carriers are all also nerfed at the same time. You cannot nerf just one races OP air unit. All of those units imo deserve supply increases.
Think about this. If liberators were 4 supply, instead of 3, if tempests were 8 supply instead of 4...if ravens/vipers were 3/4 supply respectively, and broodlords 6 supply...there will be less of these OP air units on the map in a maxed 200/200 army, and the person that focuses on ground units will have an advantage and be able to force action.
Air units inherently are OP in HOTS/LOTV. And that is not how the game should be because air units have the inherent advantage of FLYING. Meaning a lot of the units in the game cannot shoot up and the game becomes "do i have enough anti-air units to kill those? If i don't, all of my ground units are negligible, i must mass air myself."
I think all air still needs a nerf in supply. I've made countless threads about it on TL...but yeah a liberator nerf without nerfing other races corresponding lategame bullshit air is a really, really bad idea imo. Totally agree with the nerfs to air units. I guess they like air because these units have more movement options and they are obsessed with action-action speed-speed. But most of the fun comes i think from unit interactions, and air vs air is the worst unit interaction possible. actually no. if both players start massing air units there isn't really much action going on...
I know, that's the irony.
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totally agree with the proposed lategame air units changes.
the game is totally unplayable, boring and stupid when the top air units are massed.
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France248 Posts
On March 25 2016 09:24 Avi-Love wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 09:03 PPN wrote:On March 25 2016 07:07 Avi-Love wrote:
With PvZ being close to balanced and ZvT being in terrans favour in korea (both depending on maps, obviously) I really hope they don't go through with the ravager nerfs. Also, with the new turtle playstyles in both pvz and tvz on certain maps, I think that they should consider buffing zergs anti air, the corrupter has been a far below average unit for way too long. With PvZ below 45% since launch, I don't call that close to balanced. And looking at the new maps for S2, I'm having a hard time believing this could change anytime soon without a Zerg nerf or a Protoss change on early game. Right, Zerg has mostly terrible anti-air... except for the one Parasitic "lol please try to split units that like to stack" Bomb. Corruptors are still kinda lame but at least they get an use. I've seen a lot of games lately where pros use them to piss on buildings and it seems as effective as hilarious. I wrote pvz in korea, which is actually pretty balanced - beyond that, vipers are just not good enough lategame in their nerfed state, zerg cannot deal with turtling protoss or terran atm (which might be a map issue).
You mean the PvZ in Korea where it is 47.30% in Starleague Season 1 (31.82% if you exclude the qualifiers and only count the main tournament), 40.94% in GSL Pre-season, 43.37% in GSL Season 1. At some point you need a reality check. The numbers in Korea do not look vastly different from what we see everywhere else. GSL does not even use exactly the same map pool as Starleague and ladder, so maybe it is time to consider it is not entirely related to the maps.
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On March 25 2016 19:48 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 09:24 Avi-Love wrote:On March 25 2016 09:03 PPN wrote:On March 25 2016 07:07 Avi-Love wrote:
With PvZ being close to balanced and ZvT being in terrans favour in korea (both depending on maps, obviously) I really hope they don't go through with the ravager nerfs. Also, with the new turtle playstyles in both pvz and tvz on certain maps, I think that they should consider buffing zergs anti air, the corrupter has been a far below average unit for way too long. With PvZ below 45% since launch, I don't call that close to balanced. And looking at the new maps for S2, I'm having a hard time believing this could change anytime soon without a Zerg nerf or a Protoss change on early game. Right, Zerg has mostly terrible anti-air... except for the one Parasitic "lol please try to split units that like to stack" Bomb. Corruptors are still kinda lame but at least they get an use. I've seen a lot of games lately where pros use them to piss on buildings and it seems as effective as hilarious. I wrote pvz in korea, which is actually pretty balanced - beyond that, vipers are just not good enough lategame in their nerfed state, zerg cannot deal with turtling protoss or terran atm (which might be a map issue). You mean the PvZ in Korea where it is 47.30% in Starleague Season 1 (31.82% if you exclude the qualifiers and only count the main tournament), 40.94% in GSL Pre-season, 43.37% in GSL Season 1. At some point you need a reality check. The numbers in Korea do not look vastly different from what we see everywhere else. GSL does not even use exactly the same map pool as Starleague and ladder, so maybe it is time to consider it is not entirely related to the maps.
Code A PvZ is 47.5%, Code S is 58.3%. In Proleague it is 50%. The closer to the present we get, the better the winrates for Protoss against Zerg become in Korea. So yeah, right now it's more even in Korea than outside of it.
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So mech needs reliable and reasonably mobile AA.
Why not just move the Thor's AA to the Cyclone?
You would get a mobile unit that can use its speed to kite and it's range to zone out air units. Meanwhile the attack is relatively weak, so you have to kite/retreat into safe zones around turrets and the unit is not beefy enough to take on an air army on its own and cannot be massed because of the weak ground attack.
Problem solved. 
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Finally a Liberator nerf. I mean it was obvious since day 1 it was coming but they took so long about it. Feels like our discussions on other threads could have helped them choose on this particular nerf (instead of lets say range or damage) which is cool.
Still no word about Nydus tho.
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If Blizzard is using 3 tiers per league they need to think of the following:
Do not divide each league in 3 equally large slices.
The current vocabulary describing someone as high Master does not mean that he is in the top 33% of master league. It means maybe the top 10% or so of master league. Same for the other leagues.
I also suggest that you adopt the high, medium and low vocabulary when describing the rating. Tier 1, 2, 3 is not intuitive, at least for people like me that are not native English speakers. How do I I know if Tier 1 is better Than Tier 3? Level 3 is better than level 1, and tiers going in the opposite direction is just feels weird.
So high, medium and low is easier for everyone to understand.
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I love the idea of such ladder changes! Now ladder is rather static. Most of players sit on their leagues for years. Also cool idea about different MMR for each race
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On March 25 2016 19:48 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 09:24 Avi-Love wrote:On March 25 2016 09:03 PPN wrote:On March 25 2016 07:07 Avi-Love wrote:
With PvZ being close to balanced and ZvT being in terrans favour in korea (both depending on maps, obviously) I really hope they don't go through with the ravager nerfs. Also, with the new turtle playstyles in both pvz and tvz on certain maps, I think that they should consider buffing zergs anti air, the corrupter has been a far below average unit for way too long. With PvZ below 45% since launch, I don't call that close to balanced. And looking at the new maps for S2, I'm having a hard time believing this could change anytime soon without a Zerg nerf or a Protoss change on early game. Right, Zerg has mostly terrible anti-air... except for the one Parasitic "lol please try to split units that like to stack" Bomb. Corruptors are still kinda lame but at least they get an use. I've seen a lot of games lately where pros use them to piss on buildings and it seems as effective as hilarious. I wrote pvz in korea, which is actually pretty balanced - beyond that, vipers are just not good enough lategame in their nerfed state, zerg cannot deal with turtling protoss or terran atm (which might be a map issue). You mean the PvZ in Korea where it is 47.30% in Starleague Season 1 (31.82% if you exclude the qualifiers and only count the main tournament), 40.94% in GSL Pre-season, 43.37% in GSL Season 1. At some point you need a reality check. The numbers in Korea do not look vastly different from what we see everywhere else. GSL does not even use exactly the same map pool as Starleague and ladder, so maybe it is time to consider it is not entirely related to the maps.
Unfortunately you're delusional and as such have to carefully nitpick which stats to include in order to support your incorrect assessment; starleague season 1? qualifiers? gsl pre-season? The majority of these games were played months ago, on a different patch, on different maps. The only useful sample size we have from korea right now, while it is rather small, is code S, the last half of SSL and proleague - if you add up those stats, zvp is quite close to 50% and zvt is not. If you then look further into the games that were actually played, you will see that many of the zerg wins came from some kind of cheese. I already compiled the stats from code S, proleague and SSL played on the current ladder map pool in another thread, and I will happily share them here aswell:
Dusk: TvZ 11-5, ZvP 8-7
Lerilak: TvZ 4-8, ZvP 8-7
Orbital: TvZ 2-2, ZvP 1-1
Prion: TvZ 2-2, ZvP 3-2
Ruins: TvZ 5-2, ZvP 9-9
Ulrena: TvZ 3-2, ZvP 4-3
Furthermore, I cannot help but feel that a lot of people in this thread are out of touch with what is actually happening in this game, maybe they don't have the time to follow all 3 big korean leagues, which is understandable - but liberators are NOT just used tvp, and terran does NOT lose lategame tvz anymore, if you want proof of such, look at this game between jin air and KT from the proleague playoffs
+ Show Spoiler + Leenock is maxed out at 200/200 before his opponent, he has a huuuge bank while Maru does not, and he can make whichever ultimate army composition he wants - but the sad truth is that liberator/ghosts/viking demolish any composition zerg can create, mostly because zergs anti air is simply trash against terrans that know how vipers work
My personal opinion is that passive playstyles, such as the one displayed in the proleague game, should not be encouraged, it makes for very stale gameplay - much like mech and swarmhosts did previously. I don't think it's fun to watch, nor do I think it's fun to play, or play against.
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Isn't the liberator nerf making them even more...massable requirement? I don't know where Blizzard is taking with these changes.
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EPT
