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On March 31 2016 02:54 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 02:49 BaronVonOwn wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. True but this just shows how badly messed up terran is in LOTV. Having one really OP unit propping up an entire sewer full of shit is hardly good design nor should it continue. Mothership core?
Wow, that makes me really hopeful that this will be fixed.
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On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats.
Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units.
- They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored.
- They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile.
The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran.
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On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran.
The Liberator has 74.6 DPS against ground. That is 423 % as much as sieged Siege Tanks have against non-armored and 297 % as much as sieged Siege Tank have against armored.
It is not weird or surprising that this unit has become a key Terran unit.
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On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran.
Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM
- it is not like Tanks, BCs and Ravens are going to be staples in TvP cause Libs get nerfed.
Nerfing Libs just makes Terran even more one dimensional, not the other way around...
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On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM
Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't even beat sensible Protoss compositions anymore. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank.
On March 31 2016 17:25 _Croc wrote:
It is not weird or surprising that this unit has become a key Terran unit.
No, it's not surprising that it became a key unit. Because it turned out that not making them results in losing the vast majority of your games.
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On March 31 2016 17:25 _Croc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. The Liberator has 74.6 DPS against ground. That is 423 % times as much as sieged Siege Tanks have against non-armored and 297 % as much as sieged Siege Tank have against armored. It is not weird or surprising that this unit has become a key Terran unit.
Every race has those units. Nerfing the liberator because of that is
a) hypocritial (where's the zergling nerf? where's the nerf to the MsC that makes it worth as much as two reapers instead of being a solve-all-problem bandaid?)
b) it doesn't make the units it "overshadows" more playable. Noone's going to go banshee harass because of a liberator nerf, or make thors or BCs as your lategame source of high-dps singlefire unit. Noone's gonna mass tanklines like they do with liberators now in the lategame.
It's not weird or surprising that it's a key unit. It's also not weird or suprising that after 5+ years of MMM blizzard has finally given Terran another unit that isn't blatantly underpowered vs Protoss.
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Blizz already said they are thinking about nerfing the radius of freedom. That won't make hydras viable against them, but it's a nerf that also affects their harrassment power which is nice. Let's wait and see how that goes, and talk from there.
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On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank.
TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP.
making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes:
1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard
2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that.
3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc.
Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture.
ofc there are changes for protoss which should help:
4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio.
5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran.
6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP.
Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... 
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On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation...
Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm). That's why some Terrans have been playing around with marine/tank (which incidentally still loses to colossi).
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On March 31 2016 18:01 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm).
Hmm, maybe - it is still hard for me to tell for sure. I personally always die in such scenarios unless I have heavily superior numbers.
Tell me is Adept really THAT strong in such fights and at that game point? I mean like 120-150 supply?
Because in Hots if You would exchange Adept for zealot in composition You have mentioned then Terran for sure obliterates Protoss army.
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On March 31 2016 18:07 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 18:01 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm). Hmm, maybe - it is still hard for me to tell for sure. I personally always die in such scenarios unless I have heavily superior numbers. Tell me is Adept really THAT strong in such fights and at that game point? I mean like 120-150 supply? Because in Hots if You would exchange Adept for zealot in composition You have mentioned then Terran for sure obliterates Protoss army.
Well, it's multiple things I guess. For one, immortals have always crushed marauders, the reason you didn't make that many against Terran was basically marines. Barrier makes them better against marines.
The marauder attack got split up, so guardian shield is now twice as good against marauders. Also adepts are pretty tanky while doing solid damage (at least to marines).
You really need ghosts/mines/liberators (something) to make those fights go your way as Terran, even if the Protoss hasn't added storm/colossi/disruptors/all of them yet.
The worst thing is when tempests come out and you get forced to waste a ton of supply on vikings ._.
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On March 31 2016 18:13 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 18:07 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 18:01 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm). Hmm, maybe - it is still hard for me to tell for sure. I personally always die in such scenarios unless I have heavily superior numbers. Tell me is Adept really THAT strong in such fights and at that game point? I mean like 120-150 supply? Because in Hots if You would exchange Adept for zealot in composition You have mentioned then Terran for sure obliterates Protoss army. Well, it's multiple things I guess. For one, immortals have always crushed marauders, the reason you didn't make that many against Terran was basically marines. Barrier makes them better against marines. The marauder attack got split up, so guardian shield is now twice as good against marauders. Also adepts are pretty tanky while doing solid damage (at least to marines). You really need ghosts/mines/liberators (something) to make those fights go your way as Terran.
Hmm, maybe I underestimate the changes to marauder & immortal. For me they feel really negligible but maybe it makes the difference. I really want to test it in some test map right now hahaha 
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On March 31 2016 18:13 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 18:07 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 18:01 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm). Hmm, maybe - it is still hard for me to tell for sure. I personally always die in such scenarios unless I have heavily superior numbers. Tell me is Adept really THAT strong in such fights and at that game point? I mean like 120-150 supply? Because in Hots if You would exchange Adept for zealot in composition You have mentioned then Terran for sure obliterates Protoss army. The worst thing is when tempests come out and you get forced to waste a ton of supply on vikings ._.
Oh yeah the whole liberator -> tempest interaction is totally fucked up. I HATE it that i have to transition to tempest because terran have 6+ libs and then terran gets viking and we go to full air vs air game which makes me always miss HotS PvT atm T_T
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On March 31 2016 18:17 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 18:13 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 18:07 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 18:01 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 02:25 _Croc wrote:
The Liberator should also require a tech-lab to build. It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm). Hmm, maybe - it is still hard for me to tell for sure. I personally always die in such scenarios unless I have heavily superior numbers. Tell me is Adept really THAT strong in such fights and at that game point? I mean like 120-150 supply? Because in Hots if You would exchange Adept for zealot in composition You have mentioned then Terran for sure obliterates Protoss army. Well, it's multiple things I guess. For one, immortals have always crushed marauders, the reason you didn't make that many against Terran was basically marines. Barrier makes them better against marines. The marauder attack got split up, so guardian shield is now twice as good against marauders. Also adepts are pretty tanky while doing solid damage (at least to marines). You really need ghosts/mines/liberators (something) to make those fights go your way as Terran. Hmm, maybe I underestimate the changes to marauder & immortal. For me they feel really negligible but maybe it makes the difference. I really want to test it in some test map right now hahaha
I already did, MMM vs stalker/adepts/centry with guardian shield. Protoss wins. it varies with the specific comp. Inmortal/adept is also incredibly good and less GS dependant than pure gateway.
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Marauders hit at 5x2 vs adepts. I think adepts have 1 armor, and guardian shield removes 2 damage per instance. Which means that marauders hit adepts at 2x2, and marines at 3 dmg.
It's no surprise that bio gets mauled by gateway/immo. Right now the saving grace of terran relies in widow mine gimmicks and liberator's insane damage. But while pro koreans seem to make it work easily, us plebs have a really hard time in TvP.
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The last posts nails the match up IMO.
Gateway units now stand their ground vs Bio and without Libs I dont see Terrans standing a chance.
Berfing the Lib hard will Force Terrans to gimmicky two base pushes, SCV pulls and what not.
Mass Cyclones, Reaper Swarms or BC rushes wont be used cause Libs get nerfed... Neither would Carriers or 5 base of 1-gates see mote play if we removed MSC from the game..
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imo they need to remove all leagues, but well
also it would be good if they realized that having a separate MMR per matchup, as well as the possibility to choose your MU when playing Unranked, would be a huge step forward for the game
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On March 31 2016 20:01 OtherWorld wrote:
imo they need to remove all leagues, but well
also it would be good if they realized that having a separate MMR per matchup, as well as the possibility to choose your MU when playing Unranked, would be a huge step forward for the game
They haven't even commented on that one ever, right? They probably have some reasons that they don't want to share publically...
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On March 31 2016 20:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 20:01 OtherWorld wrote:
imo they need to remove all leagues, but well
also it would be good if they realized that having a separate MMR per matchup, as well as the possibility to choose your MU when playing Unranked, would be a huge step forward for the game They haven't even commented on that one ever, right? They probably have some reasons that they don't want to share publically...
I believe the main argument against this is that it would potentially prolong game-search time, but I dunno if Blizzard actually said that or if it originated from a regular Liquidian.
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On March 31 2016 18:30 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 18:17 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 18:13 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 18:07 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 18:01 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:52 egrimm wrote:On March 31 2016 17:31 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2016 17:26 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 31 2016 17:19 _Croc wrote:On March 31 2016 02:33 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
It's currently the key Terran unit, it keeps the entire race afloat in TvZ late game and TvP in general. But if you can't make it with the same add-on as medivacs it becomes ridiculously bad compared to now even if you don't change its cost or stats. Yes it is and that is why it needs to be toned down. The liberator overshadows so many terran units. - They overshadow Banshees because they are more powerful, more supply efficient and can be reactored. - They overshadow Siege Tanks because they have over 3 times as much DPS against ground and are a lot more mobile. The liberator should be nerfed to add more diversity to Terran. Nerfing Libs will just push Terrans to play even more MMM Except, of course, MMM without liberators can't beat sensible Protoss compositions. Or ultras. Either you nerf the liberator and a dozen other units along with it, or you nerf the liberator and buff the tank. + Show Spoiler +TBH I'm not exactly sure if that is the case in TvP. making comparison between HotS and LotV and pointing the changes: 1. Colossus being main dmg dealing unit in HotS was nerfed so heavily (deals ~33% dmg less in LotV) so P do not have that option anymore -> dealing with bio is harder in that regard 2. Chrono nerfed harder than Mules, Protoss rely heavily on upgrades and tech units and that nerf is really hitting that. 3. General changes to eco makes P more uncomfortable the longer the game lasts -> have to take bases eariler than can hold them, more spread out against drops, cannot lift up freely etc. Imaging only these 3 changes in HotS env -> protoss is totally dead, even without liberators in the picture. ofc there are changes for protoss which should help: 4. Marauder attack split -> slight nerf but helps protoss gateway units to stay a bit longer on field against stimmed bio. 5. Adept introduction -> Adept is like consolation prize for colossus nerf. However Adept has different scaling than colo - colossus is viable all game long and scales really good with upgrades into the late game whereas adept is OP in early game but scales really badly in to late game. That's why Terran is defending hard on 2 bases to not die to some all-in/cheese but after that period it gets better and better for terran. 6. Immortal changes might be considerate as a slight buff in PvT but still they never gonna be really good in that match up because marines + stim, mobility and EMP. Personally I do not think that points 4,5,6 outweights 1,2,3 and if you add liberator to this equation... Let me tell you as a Terran, few things crush marine/marauder/medivac harder in a straight-up fight than adept/stalker/immortal + guardian shield (even without storm). Hmm, maybe - it is still hard for me to tell for sure. I personally always die in such scenarios unless I have heavily superior numbers. Tell me is Adept really THAT strong in such fights and at that game point? I mean like 120-150 supply? Because in Hots if You would exchange Adept for zealot in composition You have mentioned then Terran for sure obliterates Protoss army. Well, it's multiple things I guess. For one, immortals have always crushed marauders, the reason you didn't make that many against Terran was basically marines. Barrier makes them better against marines. The marauder attack got split up, so guardian shield is now twice as good against marauders. Also adepts are pretty tanky while doing solid damage (at least to marines). You really need ghosts/mines/liberators (something) to make those fights go your way as Terran. Hmm, maybe I underestimate the changes to marauder & immortal. For me they feel really negligible but maybe it makes the difference. I really want to test it in some test map right now hahaha I already did, MMM vs stalker/adepts/centry with guardian shield. Protoss wins. it varies with the specific comp. Inmortal/adept is also incredibly good and less GS dependant than pure gateway.
I just want to add that I've also tested this yesterday and it's true - I stand corrected 
MMM mostly loses vs Adept/Stalker/Immortal/Sentry + GS.
I tested:
ratios: Marine/Marauder/Medivac = 3/3/1 Adept/Stalker/Immortal/Sentry = 5/5/1/1 (maybe ratios are not the best when it comes to actual, real armies ratios in the game idk)
With all bio/gateway upgrades (Combat shield. Concussive shells, Stim, Blink, Resonating G.)
Same cost of armies (mineral + gas = const)
I tried 3 different army sizes (~20/50/80) and 4 sets of upgrades (0/0 1/1 2/2 3/3)
Stim + a-move & GS +a-move - no micro
What I found out is that in low numbers and no upgrades Protoss owns Terran hard.
Going up with army supply -> gap is slightly narrowing
Going up with upgrades -> gap is slightly narrowing
~80 supply + 3/3 -> Trade is really close but still favors Protoss slightly.
Also I found out that the outcome changes severely when sentry with GS gets randomly sniped so i tried without sentry GS/micro couple of Terran units to snipe sentry. The outcome was: Terran army started winning, especially with higher supply counts/upgrades.
Looks like the GS is THE most important ability in pure bio vs pure gateway fights and that corresponds well with Marauder Nerf in LotV.
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EPT
