Trivial Rank: The Most Loathsome PatchZergs of All Time
Welcome to the Trivial Rank, the power rank for things that don't actually matter.
Today, I'm offering a companion piece to stuchiu’s meticulously researched “Greatest Players of All Time.” It’s quite similar, with just a little twist: The players who made you put a fist through your monitor The most loathsome PatchZergs of all time. If you're too young to know what a PatchZerg is, just leave now and spare yourself a lot of horror.
Here are the criteria I looked at for the rankings.
Achievements as a PatchZerg.
Lack of achievements as a SadZerg.
Disgusting games that I can't erase from my memory, no matter how hard I try.
Bias.
Got it? Here we go.
#14 to #11: The almost redeemables
Not all PatchZergs were born evil. Some of them hit a rough patch in their lives, fell in with the wrong crowd, and did nasty things they came to regret. Most people have found it in their hearts to forgive and accept them. Those people are better human beings than me.
Coming in at number fourteen is Leenock, who almost stayed off this list. Leenock is undoubtedly one of SC2's greats; he’s played in over a dozen Code S tournaments, won multiple championships around the world, and has been remarkably consistent over his six year career.
Yes, Leenock enjoyed a ton success during the BL-Infestor era, but unlike all the other scum on this ranking, he didn't need Brood Lord-Infestor for his greatest accomplishment: his championship run at MLG Providence 2011. There, in a pre-BL-Infestor meta, Leenock ran the open bracket gauntlet to claim the MLG title with his trademark, aggressive style.
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe Leenock is different from the others, and doesn't deserve to be listed...
Like Leenock, Symbol has had a long and successful career even without BL-Infestor. In fact, he’s one of the more creative and entertaining Zerg players we’ve seen in StarCraft 2; His expertise with Nydus Worms comes readily to mind.
Also like Leenock, Symbol was one of the most heinous BL-Infestor abusers in the entire world. Take a look at the most iconic, criminally evil PatchZerg games of all-time: many of them have Symbol’s name on it, signed in Protoss and Terran tears.
Due to his quiet demeanor and lack of interest in making headlines, VortiX is one of the most underrated pros in the foreign scene. But with consistently high placements in tournaments and numerous victories against top-tier Koreans, VortiX is undoubtedly one of the best foreigners to play StarCraft 2.
However, there’s no question that he was a PatchZerg during the best days of his career, which is a goddamn shame.
I've always had a soft-spot for everyone’s “favorite” Polish progamer. His ability to use his part-time status to both insult his opponents in victory and make excuses in defeat never fails to make me laugh. By embracing—perhaps even enjoying—his role as a villain, Nerchio has made the European scene a more vibrant, entertaining place.
Oh, he’s had a really solid StarCraft 2 career as well.
However, there was that one time he almost beat Mvp at IEM Cologne using BL Infestor, so fuck this guy.
#10 to #4: World Championship Series, Class of 2012
When the World Championship Series was announced in 2012, it promised to be the salvation of the foreign scene. By holding grassroots tournaments at the regional level, WCS aimed to give realistic targets to aspiring pros across the world and uncover local heroes. The hardworking foreign progamers who had been crushed under the bootheels of Koreans would finally have a chance to shine.
In reality, WCS 2012 ended up being the shitshow to end all PatchZerg shitshows. Korea was spared the plague due to the earlier scheduling of its qualifier. But in the rest of the world? The regional qualifiers taught us that years of practice and devotion didn’t matter against three months of learning BL-Infestor.
Did you know ViBE won the WCS 2012 USA championship, and is thus the last American player to ever win a major tournament? Did you know his highest placing in any other major tournament was Ro32? Incidentally, ViBE is the only player on this list by request.
Back in 2012, TL placed the Belarusian Zerg 23rd on the WCS Europe 2012 Power Rank. Lowely made a strong run to finish in the top eight and proceeded to mock the Power Rank in an on-air interview. Hey Lowely, how’s progaming working out for you lately?
Legend has it that Slivko continued playing Brood Lord-Infestor several months into HotS as the release of the expansion was delayed severely in his part of Russia. Of course, it’s almost certain that such a ridiculous story is completely made up. Right? RIGHT?
Those who could tolerate watching 2013 GSL Season 1 (the final season played in Wings of Liberty) witnessed BL-Infestor in its final, most repugnant form. At the forefront was RorO, the last and greatest master of the dread composition.
As one of the KeSPA players who had transitioned to StarCraft 2 in 2012, RorO adapted much more quickly to the new game than his peers. In particular, he had an uncanny talent for the shadowy arts. By 2013, he had surpassed even the eSF Zergs who had honed their craft for years, and seized the final Wings of Liberty trophy with his foul, fungal grasp.
Though RorO was the player who played BL-Infestor the best, I can’t give him the #1 spot because he was actually a good player in other eras. He was a solid-but-inconsistent player for years in Brood War, and remained a top SC2 Zerg for a few months after HotS was released. He may even have gone on to be a champion again if he had not slowly lost interest and retired from progaming.
Ah, JonnyRecco. In terms of games won, Terran/Protoss players eliminated, and injustices perpetrated, there are plenty of Zergs who should be more reviled.
Yet, no one embodies the idea of a PatchZerg as perfectly as JonnyRecco.
The sixteen year-old Zerg appeared from out of thin air in the summer of 2012 and grabbed our attention for a few short months. He arrived just in time to crash TeamLiquid Starleague 4, one of the most anticipated tournaments of the year. There, he scored a massive upset against NaNiwa (the #1 or #2 foreigner at the time) in the Ro32, and defeated MajOr (who was coming off an upset of his own against HyuN) in the Ro16. Even though he was eliminated by Korean Terran Keen in the quarter-finals, JonnyRecco had piqued everyone's interest.
Of course, if JonnyRecco had gone on to achieve success afterward, he wouldn’t be the legend, the meme he is today. Instead, by ruining TSL4, getting everyone's hopes up about a new foreign hope, and subsequently disappearing forever,* JonnyRecco became the immortal symbol of the PatchZerg.
I can say with absolute certainty that in the entirety of StarCraft 2, there never has been, nor will there ever be an entity of such pure evil as Sniper. Some may point to Maru banishing Myungsik to the shadow realm, or Choya’s infiltration of Prime in order to poach their best players for Team MVP. But when it comes to inflicting purely personal, emotional, and soul-rending pain, none have ever touched upon the greatness of Sniper.
Team SlayerS was one of the most beloved teams in SC2 history, but suffered the harsh fate of disbandment. On SlayerS' last night in the GSTL, it seemed that Yugioh would pull off a miracle and let them go out with a victory. But Sniper was having none of it. He went on to all-kill the Slayers team, in the process ending Brown’s whole career, starting Arthur's downward spiral into infinite sadness, and making Eve cry.
Sniper topped himself not long after when he faced Ryung in the Code S semi-finals in Las Vegas. Torturing Ryung until he screamed "IMBA" with his dying breath, Sniper killed off the dream of a TvZ GSL finals between Ryung and HyuN. Sniper proceeded to destroy the fan-favorite HyuN in a one-sided grand finals, sucking all the joy out of Las Vegas and replacing it with the bleakness of Atlantic City, New Jersey.
Not one to lay off the evil, Sniper even had the audacity to call out those who criticized him for being overrated and abusing BL-Infestor to conquer the GSL. Of course, he fell off a cliff the second BL-Infestor died, dropping out of Code S entirely and playing in just two Code A tournaments after.
These days, Sniper entertains himself by ruining Heroes of the Storm. Last year, he deceived the Chinese team DK into sponsoring his squad. Sniper's team then upset the presumptive Korean favorites MVP Black to win a trip to BlizzCon. Then, in the culmination of Sniper's master plan, Team DK lost to America's Cloud 9 at the 2015 World Championships, thus inflicting maximum humiliation on both Korea and China. Team DK subsequently withdrew their support, ruining any chance of a Korean team receiving a Chinese sponsorship in the future. [Wax: This may not be an entirely accurate account.]
Sheth: Now that he plays Heroes of the Storm, is it okay to remind you guys that he was a PatchZerg?
Annyung: There’s not much to say about Annyung; I just wanted an excuse to mention this game:
Stephano: One of the most loathsome things about PatchZergs was that they were imitators and not innovators. That’s not a critique you can make about Stephano. The debauched genius laid the very foundations for BL-Infestor himself, pioneering the Zergling-Infestor style that would later evolve into something far more sinister.
While some might say this incriminates Stephano, I think he deserves a pass. When Stephano developed the lingfestor style, he was just trying to find innovative ways to win. That was the same kind of attitude that led to his Hydra-Roach style of ZvT and Roach-max in ZvP. Both strategies were effective, but neither was game-breaking.
But those guys who copied BL-Infestor after they knew it was overpowered? Every single one of them was literally trying to kill StarCraft 2.
Thanks for reading! Feel free to tell us how much we suck at: SaintSnorlax and TLstuchiu
And if you're reading this Slivko, please don't hurt us.
Bans from the Sniper fan club work differently from all other places. People only get banned if your banning somehow increase the amount of evil in the universe.
why is JonnyRecco above Ziktomini? Jonny had alright showins in HotS in online cups and WCS qualies, but Ziktomini literally retired the moment BL/infestor ceased its existence.
On March 18 2016 03:08 stuchiu wrote: Bans from the Sniper fan club work differently from all other places. People only get banned if your banning somehow increase the amount of evil in the universe.
On March 18 2016 03:08 stuchiu wrote: Bans from the Sniper fan club work differently from all other places. People only get banned if your banning somehow increase the amount of evil in the universe.
Sniper is the entropic evil.
Think about it this way. Sniper is the kind of guy who would deny an art student acceptance and force said student to possibly become a dictator.
best TL article in years. short, to the point, and brutally honest. my least favs are def vortix and nerchio because one of my favorite sc2 moments is when each of their smug faces got eliminated by MVP at IEM when it seemed like no terran had a chance. I remember vortix's face when mvp pushed into his BL infestor army on the east platform of that one vertical 2 player map. that face was priceless.
I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
On March 18 2016 03:29 chipmonklord17 wrote: How do you have an article about evil sniper and not include the burning Christmas tree photo? I wonder if I even still have it....
Seriously! I can't find it anywhere and it's my favorite thing about his entire career.
On March 18 2016 03:29 chipmonklord17 wrote: How do you have an article about evil sniper and not include the burning Christmas tree photo? I wonder if I even still have it....
Seriously! I can't find it anywhere and it's my favorite thing about his entire career.
Just give it a few, stuchiu will post it when he gets around to it.
On March 18 2016 03:29 chipmonklord17 wrote: How do you have an article about evil sniper and not include the burning Christmas tree photo? I wonder if I even still have it....
Seriously! I can't find it anywhere and it's my favorite thing about his entire career.
Go through stuchiu's twitter time line, it pops up there quite regularly!
On March 18 2016 03:29 chipmonklord17 wrote: How do you have an article about evil sniper and not include the burning Christmas tree photo? I wonder if I even still have it....
Seriously! I can't find it anywhere and it's my favorite thing about his entire career.
Just give it a few, stuchiu will post it when he gets around to it.
I'm pretty sure stuchiu has been my source for that picture every time I need it. Somehow I always forget to save it for myself
On March 18 2016 03:29 chipmonklord17 wrote: How do you have an article about evil sniper and not include the burning Christmas tree photo? I wonder if I even still have it....
Seriously! I can't find it anywhere and it's my favorite thing about his entire career.
Just give it a few, stuchiu will post it when he gets around to it.
But Snipers execution was absolutely fantastic with BL infestor.
Btw just sped watched the game vs Ryung, game 5 at IPL5. Ryung lost to an aggressive 3 base speed bane, attack at the 3rd.
Lost majority of army, to an infestor flank, and 19 Scvs. Mining prevented from 3rd for another min or so. He was dead, Sniper just used BL Infestor to say GTFO.
Also its not like Ryung set the world on fire with his ever so apparent skill, after BL infestor, He was very mediocre. BL infestor was in fact "IMBA" but that's not why Ryung lost.
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
The problem with this is that Protoss has always been OP, and therefore any Protoss who has been successful is already a Patchtoss. Therefore there is no need for a list. /s
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe Leenock is different from the others, and doesn't deserve to be listed.
No he doens't. He was the best zerg in the world after Nestea started slumping mid 2011.
There is a severe lack of Goswer. 3-0'ing MVP, never forget that. I also think Hyun should be there. Late 2012 he was a candidate for best player in the world. Throughout all HOTS he was the definition of mediocricity (relative to koreans). At least he makes more sense than someone like Nerchio and Vortix.
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe Leenock is different from the others, and doesn't deserve to be listed.
No he doens't. He was the best zerg in the world after Nestea started slumping mid 2011.
There is a severe lack of Goswer. 3-0'ing MVP, never forget that.
I'm an avid Leenock fan, and agree given the totality of his work it isn't warranted. Hes been no worse than a 2nd tier Kr zerg his whole career.
However i will admit in the BL infestor era, Leenock abused it and abused it with great execution.
Well if the "abuse it" criteria is the most relevant one, I put Scarlett as by far the number 1. She had the most lame slowpushed Broodlord style, and had literraly only played Sc2 for 1-1½ years before she began beating koreans. I think she actually was terrible during most of 2012 but improved a ton so she actually was legit in early HOTS and continued to improve afterwards.
What about Idra? He looked decent in 2012, but absolutely atrocious in early HOTS and retired shortly after.
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe Leenock is different from the others, and doesn't deserve to be listed.
No he doens't. He was the best zerg in the world after Nestea started slumping mid 2011.
There is a severe lack of Goswer. 3-0'ing MVP, never forget that.
I'm an avid Leenock fan, and agree given the totality of his work it isn't warranted. Hes been no worse than a 2nd tier Kr zerg his whole career.
However i will admit in the BL infestor era, Leenock abused it and abused it with great execution.
Well, obviously you want to win. And also, there was no alternative to BL/Infestor. 15 damage ultralisks against marines? Fighting Protoss on the ground? Of course everyone always went BL/Infestor.
Life - less patchzerg, but more loathsome (if allegations are true)
On March 18 2016 03:41 Olli wrote: Sniper gets unfairly discredited, he was legitimately good and one of the few people playing muta/ling/bane the during BL/infestor era
Get out of here with your logic - like a Donald Trump rally, this thread is for pitch-forking and blind anger :p
I expected the list to be almost all foreigners with Roro and Sniper at the top because foreigners can never top Koreans even on a list like this. Was not disappointed.
On March 18 2016 03:08 stuchiu wrote: Bans from the Sniper fan club work differently from all other places. People only get banned if your banning somehow increase the amount of evil in the universe.
Sniper is the entropic evil.
Think about it this way. Sniper is the kind of guy who would deny an art student acceptance and force said student to possibly become a dictator.
I mean I would also deny art students acceptance if I feel if they didn't match the stature required..
this article made me laugh so hard with how the descriptions of all the BL/infestor abusers guess that is the only way to react to such a horrid era of sc2
My first thought when reading this article was, where are the people who used Swarm Hosts. I think they are even more despised then the BL/Infestor era. I hated watching those games with a passion.
On March 18 2016 04:39 Masada714 wrote: My first thought when reading this article was, where are the people who used Swarm Hosts. I think they are even more despised then the BL/Infestor era. I hated watching those games with a passion.
On March 18 2016 04:47 IntoTheheart wrote: Didn't Swarm Hosts ruin a lot of PASSION though? And isn't PASSIONCRIME truly the most despicable of crimes?
viewer numbers were the highest during SH games. numbers dont lie
On March 18 2016 04:47 IntoTheheart wrote: Didn't Swarm Hosts ruin a lot of PASSION though? And isn't PASSIONCRIME truly the most despicable of crimes?
MaNa vs Firecake one of the most watched VoDs of all time.
Sow as Stephano vs Petreaus.
By pure numbers they were probably saving passion.
On March 18 2016 04:47 IntoTheheart wrote: Didn't Swarm Hosts ruin a lot of PASSION though? And isn't PASSIONCRIME truly the most despicable of crimes?
MaNa vs Firecake one of the most watched VoDs of all time.
Sow as Stephano vs Petreaus.
By pure numbers they were probably saving passion.
On March 18 2016 04:47 IntoTheheart wrote: Didn't Swarm Hosts ruin a lot of PASSION though? And isn't PASSIONCRIME truly the most despicable of crimes?
MaNa vs Firecake one of the most watched VoDs of all time.
Sow as Stephano vs Petreaus.
By pure numbers they were probably saving passion.
Passion of the viewers, what about the players?
Naniwa retired when people found an answer to void ray/chargelot/templar, I can't complain
I really enjoyed the BL/infestor era and I always looked forward to SH games. The concept that there is a difficult problem (for the non-Z part of the equation) that people are gradually trying to solve, is quite appealing, in particular if you watch a lot of games. Surely, it produced some boring games, but a lot of them was people stubbornly refusing to try something new and doing instead the same old styles that were bound to fail. All the "meching" terrans doing tank pushes only to meet BLs were quite a pathetic sight. SH games were sometimes outright hilarious and the whole thing where people would basically use ever single place on the map to mine, build something or just fight, was also interesting.
Thanks to some higher being that I started watching and playing Starcraft II in mid 2013 after WCS Season 2 Finals (the grand final was my first SC II game i watched) and made the switch from Warcraft III to Starcraft not earlier.
Every one of these Brofestor games looks horrible and it is always the perfect example of why I am a critic of blizzards apporach of balance.
Great article. Err... thanks for the memories? I miss the comic villain that was Sniper though. Nobody now reaches that level of anti-fandom and it can be fun to root against someone.
I immediately checked where JonnyREcco was. I wasn't disappointed. That powerranking is one of the most accurate a TL writer has done, ironically enough.
Speaking of blord/inf era, I was trying find a vod for my friend of scarlett vs korean zerg on atlantis(i think), Game goes super late free unit wars, anyone have a link for it? Thanks!
On March 18 2016 05:17 Apoteosis wrote: Stephano should be in the #1.
Not only he created the Winfestor/GGlord, but also he created the monster that was the turtle SH style.
Stephano killed esports, but we are just too blind to admit it
I wasn't paying attention to the Starcraft scene during HOTS...what was the initial community feedback to Swarm Hosts? I can't imagine anyone thought the unit was a good idea when it was introduced, but obviously hindsight is biased.
On March 18 2016 05:17 Apoteosis wrote: Stephano should be in the #1.
Not only he created the Winfestor/GGlord, but also he created the monster that was the turtle SH style.
Stephano killed esports, but we are just too blind to admit it
I wasn't paying attention to the Starcraft scene during HOTS...what was the initial community feedback to Swarm Hosts? I can't imagine anyone thought the unit was a good idea when it was introduced, but obviously hindsight is biased.
The initial feedback to HotS was that Zerg was getting all the fun stuff, Terran got absolutely nothing after the Warhound removal and until shortly before beta ended noone even knew what Protoss would end up with.
I started sc2 during this era as zerg, Never fucking knew it existed till after the fact. Always saw "Pros" go BL/Infestor but i thought it was lame and just did Hydra/roach over and over again
Amusingly, I don't remember much from this era at all. This was around the time of Blizzard's botched launch of Diablo 3. However, whenever I was deciding whether to watch SC2 or do another Azmodan run or check the AH again, either Azmodan or the AH won. I think my mind is still subconsciously erasing memories of games during this time.
On March 18 2016 05:17 Apoteosis wrote: Stephano should be in the #1.
Not only he created the Winfestor/GGlord, but also he created the monster that was the turtle SH style.
Stephano killed esports, but we are just too blind to admit it
I wasn't paying attention to the Starcraft scene during HOTS...what was the initial community feedback to Swarm Hosts? I can't imagine anyone thought the unit was a good idea when it was introduced, but obviously hindsight is biased.
Opinion on SH was pretty evenly split. Some people instantly looked at "free units" and called the unit atrocious. Others, including Artosis and myself, thought it had lots of potential.
I still hold that the concept of free units doesn't HAVE to end up shitty.
On March 18 2016 06:04 geokilla wrote: Lol oh man. I don't know half of those players. It's like they all disappeared because they couldn't succeed in a broken game.
One could say that it was because they couldn't succeed once the game stopped being broken
while memes and legends are often times much more interesting than the boring trivialities of reality, I'll shed some light on what actually happened to the Scotish lad "JonnyREcco" if anyone's interested:
Inspired by watching Stephano's stream (way back when he was playing on god-awful maps like Typhon Peaks against god-awful players like Sjow), Paul went to the ladder to have a go at emulating his fellow Zerg's playstyle and timings. A lot of time on his hands, Paul got decent at it, hit gm, started playing tournaments, starting making a name for himself - but attributing his Fall from Grace to him abusing Zerg is far from the whole truth. What happened was that he became complacent with what he had done for himself and wasn't willing to put in serious practice to keep improving - that and the real life distractions of a young boy hanging out with his friends. Source: I used to coach/mentor him till we started drifting away from each other when he got too full of himself and I got fed up with him being complacent
On March 18 2016 07:11 BeStFAN wrote: any Zerg that unironically made roaches in WoL/hots TvZ is a patchzerg through and through
bonus points if they were high ranked in ladder but never placed in tournaments
Foreign zergs generally gravitate more to this style of play. Patchzergs, SH-turtle, all the most cancerous zerg playstyles are foreign. I blame Idra and beta-WoL to early WoL zergs.
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
ur joking right? Flash?
1 of the 2 times he reached ro16 in GSL, it was on the back of thor/hellbat and Nimbus
He played only 1 game on Nimbus that season. That's the reason he didn't get to the Ro8.
He also made the Ro16 4 times
Though it's rather undeniable that when he was looking really good in 2013 it was quite hellbatish. Then again everyone was using hellbats like crazy back then. Zergs were wishing neural parasite was better so they could mass hellbats themselves. In 2015 his best results were based on mech (hellbats again?!) and the best TvP of his SC2 career (however that happend).
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
It wasn't atrocious like some of the players on this list, but they kinda fit the definition of Patchterran anyway. And stu said he didn't mean it in a negative way (except for MarineKing).
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
In terms of patch Terrans and patch Toss - I'd say it would be the lesser-tier players who were only able to be relevant during a period of racial imbalance.
Thus, by definition that eliminates most of the greats (e.g. Leenock, who won across several years) though all of them benefited when their race was strong (including Life, Mvp, etc.)
Patch Terrans / Toss would probably be those lesser-known, GSL Ro16, Ro8 players who had no business being in the GSL at all but had a fortunate patch
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
So when he does well in a favorable meta, the meta looks favorable because of him; but when he doesn't do well in an unfavorable meta (blink), it's because of the meta? So what about when the meta looked neither favorable nor unfavorable for Terran and Inno did average? Well I guess he's allowed to fall off every now and then.
His best tournament finishes in WoL are like the complete opposite of being a Patchterran, but his best HotS results coincide with good Terran metas and patches more than I as a fan would like to admit.
Like if you compare Inno to your joke example Maru: Inno's GSL results go up and down massively per season, including a full dropout, while Maru's are consistent as hell.
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
So when he does well in a favorable meta, the meta looks favorable because of him; but when he doesn't do well in an unfavorable meta (blink), it's because of the meta? So what about when the meta looked neither favorable nor unfavorable for Terran and Inno did average? Well I guess he's allowed to fall off every now and then.
His best tournament finishes in WoL are like the complete opposite of being a Patchterran, but his best HotS results coincide with good Terran metas and patches more than I as a fan would like to admit.
there was only 1 terran who got to the GSL finals in all of HotS. And he did it not 1 time, not 2 times but 3 times. If you think someone who does that far better then every other player of his race I don't know what to say to you. It's like saying NesTea is a patchzerg.
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
So when he does well in a favorable meta, the meta looks favorable because of him; but when he doesn't do well in an unfavorable meta (blink), it's because of the meta? So what about when the meta looked neither favorable nor unfavorable for Terran and Inno did average? Well I guess he's allowed to fall off every now and then.
His best tournament finishes in WoL are like the complete opposite of being a Patchterran, but his best HotS results coincide with good Terran metas and patches more than I as a fan would like to admit.
there was only 1 terran who got to the GSL finals in all of HotS. And he did it not 1 time, not 2 times but 3 times. If you think someone who does that far better then every other player of his race I don't know what to say to you. It's like saying NesTea is a patchzerg.
You're purposely evading the point but that's fine. Fan's got to do what a fan's got to do. Just know that nobody said he wasn't very skilled & gifted and nobody said he was just abusing broken compositions. Just that his performance swings along with the metagame too hard.
I'm glad to see Stephano's name at least given a mention on the patchzerg list. The only reason why he was ever a top player is because of broken zerg favored maps and a zerg favored meta
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
So when he does well in a favorable meta, the meta looks favorable because of him; but when he doesn't do well in an unfavorable meta (blink), it's because of the meta? So what about when the meta looked neither favorable nor unfavorable for Terran and Inno did average? Well I guess he's allowed to fall off every now and then.
His best tournament finishes in WoL are like the complete opposite of being a Patchterran, but his best HotS results coincide with good Terran metas and patches more than I as a fan would like to admit.
there was only 1 terran who got to the GSL finals in all of HotS. And he did it not 1 time, not 2 times but 3 times. If you think someone who does that far better then every other player of his race I don't know what to say to you. It's like saying NesTea is a patchzerg.
You're purposely evading the point but that's fine.
Okay let's analize it a bit more. I disagree that the metas he did well in were particularly terran favored. the first GSL finals he got to had 2 terrans in the ro8 and Inno was the only one in the ro4. How is that super terran favored? the GSL he won in 2014 had again 2 terrans in the ro8 who faced each other in the ro4. Inno was the only one in the finals. the 2015 GSL had 3 terrans in the ro8 and 2 in the ro4. again Inno the only one in the finals.
If you really think thoses eras were super terran favored why was it only INnoVation who performed that well? Aren't normally the brackets filled with players of one race when it is super favored. or is it just that the meta was super terran favored but Inno was the only one who could abuse that.
edit: the meta only looked favored because INnoVation dominated his opponents so hard it looked imbalanced. Do you really think 4M vs ling bane muta would have looked terran favored if it wasn't for INnoVation killing every opponent with ease. Or that mech vs zerg would have looked imbalanced without him. he was the only one who made it consistently work against top zergs. Most other terrans got bopped by zergs like Byul and soO.
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
So when he does well in a favorable meta, the meta looks favorable because of him; but when he doesn't do well in an unfavorable meta (blink), it's because of the meta? So what about when the meta looked neither favorable nor unfavorable for Terran and Inno did average? Well I guess he's allowed to fall off every now and then.
His best tournament finishes in WoL are like the complete opposite of being a Patchterran, but his best HotS results coincide with good Terran metas and patches more than I as a fan would like to admit.
there was only 1 terran who got to the GSL finals in all of HotS. And he did it not 1 time, not 2 times but 3 times. If you think someone who does that far better then every other player of his race I don't know what to say to you. It's like saying NesTea is a patchzerg.
You're purposely evading the point but that's fine.
Okay let's analize it a bit more. I disagree that the metas he did well in were particularly terran favored. the first GSL finals he got to had 2 terrans in the ro8 and Inno was the only one in the ro4. How is that super terran favored? the GSL he won in 2014 had again 2 terrans in the ro8 who faced each other in the ro4. Inno was the only one in the finals. the 2015 GSL had 3 terrans in the ro8 and 2 in the ro4. again Inno the only one in the finals.
If you really think thoses eras were super terran favored why was it only INnoVation who performed that well? Aren't normally the brackets filled with players of one race when it is super favored. or is it just that the meta was super terran favored but Inno was the only one who could abuse that.
Actually Flash, Mvp, Bomber and Maru did really well in 2013 at the same time as Inno.
In 2014, Maru, Cure, Flash all were doing well at the same time. Maru got a group of death. Flash bombed out like he always does. Cure made it the ro4 and almost won Red Bull against Bomber. Bomber was also doing well outside of Korea.
In 2015, TY, Maru, Flash and INnoVation were all doing well around that time.
this is the first time I have heard someone say terran was strong at the end of 2015. terran won by far the least tournaments in 2015 and even David Kim admitted he has considerd buffing terran before blizzcon because they looked weak. But yeah, Inno won a tournament so terran must have been OP.
On March 18 2016 07:45 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
INnoVation was the only terran who was in a GSL finals for all of HotS (and he did it 3 times) and 1 out of 2 terrans who won a premier tournament in 2015. There are hardly players who deserve the term patch"something" less than him.
if the meta looked good for terran when he won it was because he made the meta look favorable for terran
So when he does well in a favorable meta, the meta looks favorable because of him; but when he doesn't do well in an unfavorable meta (blink), it's because of the meta? So what about when the meta looked neither favorable nor unfavorable for Terran and Inno did average? Well I guess he's allowed to fall off every now and then.
His best tournament finishes in WoL are like the complete opposite of being a Patchterran, but his best HotS results coincide with good Terran metas and patches more than I as a fan would like to admit.
there was only 1 terran who got to the GSL finals in all of HotS. And he did it not 1 time, not 2 times but 3 times. If you think someone who does that far better then every other player of his race I don't know what to say to you. It's like saying NesTea is a patchzerg.
You're purposely evading the point but that's fine.
Okay let's analize it a bit more. I disagree that the metas he did well in were particularly terran favored. the first GSL finals he got to had 2 terrans in the ro8 and Inno was the only one in the ro4. How is that super terran favored? the GSL he won in 2014 had again 2 terrans in the ro8 who faced each other in the ro4. Inno was the only one in the finals. the 2015 GSL had 3 terrans in the ro8 and 2 in the ro4. again Inno the only one in the finals.
If you really think thoses eras were super terran favored why was it only INnoVation who performed that well? Aren't normally the brackets filled with players of one race when it is super favored. or is it just that the meta was super terran favored but Inno was the only one who could abuse that.
Actually Flash, Mvp, Bomber and Maru did really well in 2013 at the same time as Inno.
In 2014, Maru, Cure, Flash all were doing well at the same time. Maru got a group of death. Flash bombed out like he always does. Cure made it the ro4 and almost won Red Bull against Bomber. Bomber was also doing well outside of Korea.
In 2015, TY, Maru, Flash and INnoVation were all doing well around that time.
they did well for their standards but except Maru none of them did well enough or even came close to winning a starleague. Must he be the only terran in the ro16 to prove he can do well in bad metas?
this is the first time I have heard someone say terran was strong at the end of 2015. terran won by far the least tournaments in 2015 and even David Kim admitted he has considerd buffing terran before blizzcon because they looked weak. But yeah, Inno won a tournament so terran must have been OP.
It's not that terran was OP or anything in late 2015. It's just that after the swarmhost nerf mech was pretty strong in TvZ and also strong in TvT which favored Inno's playstyle.
On March 18 2016 04:32 Jaaaaasper wrote: Wait are we allowed to call people patch zergs now? That was mod actionable for like 2 years
i already called out the hypocrisy multiple times. back then people who told the truth about the suck that was gglord and winfestor were punished with bans. it is common that prophets are persecuted during their time, only to be proven right. said prophets only wanted to save SC2 by pointing out the horrible balance patch that extended queen range and ushered in an era that literally murdered the game. i'll never forgot how these noobs mocked avilo in state of the game when avilo predicted how awful queen range patch was. only qxc was level headed. bad players like idra and incontrol made fools of themselves
Another one that got ppl banned was pointing out that innovation was really bad at TvT becase as soon hellbats got nerfed, his TvT got nerfed hard and he got repeatedly pwned
On March 18 2016 04:32 Jaaaaasper wrote: Wait are we allowed to call people patch zergs now? That was mod actionable for like 2 years
i already called out the hypocrisy multiple times. back then people who told the truth about the suck that was gglord and winfestor were punished with bans. it is common that prophets are persecuted during their time, only to be proven right. said prophets only wanted to save SC2 by pointing out the horrible balance patch that extended queen range and ushered in an era that literally murdered the game. i'll never forgot how these noobs mocked avilo in state of the game when avilo predicted how awful queen range patch was. only qxc was level headed. bad players like idra and incontrol made fools of themselves
Another one that got ppl banned was pointing out that innovation was really bad at TvT becase as soon hellbats got nerfed, his TvT got nerfed hard and he got repeatedly pwned
While I agree Infestor Broodlord was a dark time indeed, that queen change was one of the best things to happen in WoL.
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
It's kinda hard to deny with Inno and Flash. When Terran wasn't that good they were struggling more than others. When the meta was shifted so standard Terran play got stronger, they got (closer) to the top. Both of them always did better in the same metagames too, so it's hardly coincidence.
It wasn't atrocious like some of the players on this list, but they kinda fit the definition of Patchterran anyway. And stu said he didn't mean it in a negative way (except for MarineKing).
The implication when you're talking about "patch-race" is that those players are abusing some kind of temporary advantage to artificially inflate their apparent skill level.
INno and Flash doing well when the meta favors Terran standard play is neither coincidence nor indication of patch-Terranness. Standard play should by definition always be viable. It's the times when standard play isn't reliable that we look to see who (of the other races) gets away with things they shouldn't.
If late 2013-mid 2014 is to be held against INnoVation, then by that logic Maru is literally the only non-patch Terran in Korea.
Also every single Protoss got a boost midway through 2013 once they realized Blink + MSC + Oracles are good things to have. Does that make Dear, Zest, Stats, Classic (the list goes on and on) patch Tosses, or if you prefer expansion-Tosses? I was salty as fuck throughout 2014 but I wouldn't dream of calling any of those guys patch-Tosses now, and not just because of the pejorative connotations but because they can all play a mean standard game.
On March 18 2016 08:13 Jonas wrote: I'm glad to see Stephano's name at least given a mention on the patchzerg list. The only reason why he was ever a top player is because of broken zerg favored maps and a zerg favored meta
Total BS. like entirely completly totally 100% BS.
I don't approve of this at all. I'm very disappointed in the staff here setting such a bad example. Certainly you guys wouldn't like it if all the users started talking like this in posts?
I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
And thats why I couldnt be on a desk, I wouldnt need to be egged on. I'd have named 20 or so straight out.
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
And thats why I couldnt be on a desk, I wouldnt need to be egged on. I'd have named 20 or so straight out.
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
And thats why I couldnt be on a desk, I wouldnt need to be egged on. I'd have named 20 or so straight out.
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
And thats why I couldnt be on a desk, I wouldnt need to be egged on. I'd have named 20 or so straight out.
Wtf haha, there weren't any patch toss or patch terrans... There could have been if adepts were buffed to the state they were, but it was at release and didn't last long.
Same as why there is no patch terran: the only era where randoms (that's the spirit of patch zergs, and why VortiX or Stephano can't ever be considered patch zergs, which doesn't mean they weren't helped by zerg strength, everyone is guilty of that) were doing very well with terran was in the early GSLs, but it wasn't because of a patch since it was near release so without a patch.
It's kinda sad that you could be good with Z/P just copying actual good players, with terran it's all about micro & mechanics, watching pros play is hardly useful.
On March 18 2016 05:17 Apoteosis wrote: Stephano should be in the #1.
Not only he created the Winfestor/GGlord, but also he created the monster that was the turtle SH style.
Stephano killed esports, but we are just too blind to admit it
I wasn't paying attention to the Starcraft scene during HOTS...what was the initial community feedback to Swarm Hosts? I can't imagine anyone thought the unit was a good idea when it was introduced, but obviously hindsight is biased.
The initial feedback to HotS was that Zerg was getting all the fun stuff, Terran got absolutely nothing after the Warhound removal and until shortly before beta ended noone even knew what Protoss would end up with.
Noone thought the Swarm Host was fun though. It was considered pretty unviable as well in early HOTS.
KiLLeR is, results-wise, the best latin american player of sc2. He got a third place in IEM NY in 2011, his run only stopped by the mighty DRG. Also, he got a RO8 at the 2012 BWC, defeated by the juggernaut Rain. Better than Major, at least, who had zero decent runs in premiere tournaments.
I remember those days when I used to troll TL with the phrase "sick new up-and-coming talented Zerg player" and variations. The thing is, you could know that I was obviously trolling, but you can't really ban a guy for praising a player, so I got away most of the time with this. Most of the time ;D.
On March 18 2016 10:19 Befree wrote: Wow, this is really hostile.
I don't approve of this at all. I'm very disappointed in the staff here setting such a bad example. Certainly you guys wouldn't like it if all the users started talking like this in posts?
This isn't reddit.
Teamliquid (and Waxangel specifically) has a long, rich tradition of tongue-in-cheek articles that are really just sophisticated bullshit intended for comedic effect. This is a fine example of such.
On March 18 2016 12:05 Doodsmack wrote: Blizzard's lack of response to BL/infestor is their worst move with SC2.
I think Swarm Hosts were worse.... I know BL/infestor was super overpowered and broken, but swarm hosts were just downright EMBARRASSING.
Is this the part where everybody gets to tell what they hate the most? I think Warpgates, Forcefields, Dark Templar and Oracles are still all worse and ruind more games every season than BL/Infestor and Swarm Hosts ruined during the whole existance of SC2.
On March 18 2016 12:05 Doodsmack wrote: Blizzard's lack of response to BL/infestor is their worst move with SC2.
I think Swarm Hosts were worse.... I know BL/infestor was super overpowered and broken, but swarm hosts were just downright EMBARRASSING.
Is this the part where everybody gets to tell what they hate the most? I think Warpgates, Forcefields, Dark Templar and Oracles are still all worse and ruind more games every season than BL/Infestor and Swarm Hosts ruined during the whole existance of SC2.
This is the mock the patch zerg thread, not the designated balance qq thread
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
This moment is exactly what I thought about when I read the title. :D
On March 18 2016 12:05 Doodsmack wrote: Blizzard's lack of response to BL/infestor is their worst move with SC2.
I think Swarm Hosts were worse.... I know BL/infestor was super overpowered and broken, but swarm hosts were just downright EMBARRASSING.
Is this the part where everybody gets to tell what they hate the most? I think Warpgates, Forcefields, Dark Templar and Oracles are still all worse and ruind more games every season than BL/Infestor and Swarm Hosts ruined during the whole existance of SC2.
That's only true because a typical BL/Infestor or SH game usually took around 5 hours to be done. Simply no time to ruin more games. Quality > quantity anyway, BL/Infestor and SH easily had a higher level of destruction to the beauty that is sc2 gameplay.
no just ... no.. i cant disagree that these guys are patchzergs, however this article is way too mean... these guys are/were hard working, starcraft-loving players.. they don't deserve such humiliation..
really expected more love from TL for the players..
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
GomTvT wasn't because of PatchTerrans, it was mostly because of ImbalancedMapPoolTerrans.
Also MVP legit being a very good player, of course.
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
GomTvT wasn't because of PatchTerrans, it was mostly because of ImbalancedMapPoolTerrans.
Also MVP legit being a very good player, of course.
The result is the same. And yes Mvp surely a great player, just saying that gomtvt surely didn't make it harder
On March 18 2016 12:05 Doodsmack wrote: Blizzard's lack of response to BL/infestor is their worst move with SC2.
I think Swarm Hosts were worse.... I know BL/infestor was super overpowered and broken, but swarm hosts were just downright EMBARRASSING.
Is this the part where everybody gets to tell what they hate the most? I think Warpgates, Forcefields, Dark Templar and Oracles are still all worse and ruind more games every season than BL/Infestor and Swarm Hosts ruined during the whole existance of SC2.
That's only true because a typical BL/Infestor or SH game usually took around 5 hours to be done. Simply no time to ruin more games. Quality > quantity anyway, BL/Infestor and SH easily had a higher level of destruction to the beauty that is sc2 gameplay.
Other than that, Dts are ok i think
Dts are too fast. They are victims of Blizzards policy "faster = better = enjoyable". Everything has to be faster! Now we have even faster start of the game itself
But this is not the topic to discuss this Anyway, Protoss BS games are not all the time the same and are faster. Thus they are less annoying than watching an endless stream of free units
On March 18 2016 12:36 ZenithM wrote: I remember those days when I used to troll TL with the phrase "sick new up-and-coming talented Zerg player" and variations. The thing is, you could know that I was obviously trolling, but you can't really ban a guy for praising a player, so I got away most of the time with this. Most of the time ;D.
Lol yeah, there was a period of time with a lot of those talented zergs popping up likes mushrooms indeed :D
On March 18 2016 16:19 Achilles.Sc2 wrote: no just ... no.. i cant disagree that these guys are patchzergs, however this article is way too mean... these guys are/were hard working, starcraft-loving players.. they don't deserve such humiliation..
really expected more love from TL for the players..
Now you know how literally every Protoss player not named Rain feels throughout the whole SC2 lifespan.. getting no respect from zerg-biased GSL casters bashing how "easy" of a race it is to play. Even creating a show called "Imbalance" to talk about how easy protoss is? Yeah.. thats not going to sway the opinion of new players.
On March 18 2016 16:19 Achilles.Sc2 wrote: no just ... no.. i cant disagree that these guys are patchzergs, however this article is way too mean... these guys are/were hard working, starcraft-loving players.. they don't deserve such humiliation..
really expected more love from TL for the players..
Now you know how literally every Protoss player not named Rain feels throughout the whole SC2 lifespan.. getting no respect from zerg-biased GSL casters bashing how "easy" of a race it is to play. Even creating a show called "Imbalance" to talk about how easy protoss is? Yeah.. thats not going to sway the opinion of new players.
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
Did you really compare TaeJa and MVP ?
No i implied that Mvp's success was in an era where terrans were rather strong. Most people don't seem to remember that. (no i don't want to say that he wasn't great, still a little overhyped though)
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
Did you really compare TaeJa and MVP ?
No i implied that Mvp's success was in an era where terrans were rather strong. Most people don't seem to remember that. (no i don't want to say that he wasn't great, still a little overhyped though)
Oh ok my bad He also won when Terran was not OP as fuck though. Or am i blinded by wrong memories ?
On March 18 2016 03:24 Silvana wrote: I had the bless of not being a Starcraft fan during the BL-infestor era. And I had a lot of fun reading this article :D Well done TL!
When is the PatchToss one coming?
And I'm very curious how you will manage to write the PatchTerran list to finish the series without getting a lot of flak for incriminating the immaculate race.
They can't because they would have to include TaeJa and no one else
Damn patch terrans, what about gomtvt and the fact that Mvp won pretty much all his titles during that era? Ouch :/
Did you really compare TaeJa and MVP ?
No i implied that Mvp's success was in an era where terrans were rather strong. Most people don't seem to remember that. (no i don't want to say that he wasn't great, still a little overhyped though)
Oh ok my bad He also won when Terran was not OP as fuck though. Or am i blinded by wrong memories ?
No. He made a GSL finals when Protoss was doing well (Ro8 was 5P 3T) and one during BL/infestor (which he barely lost, RIP G5L), he also won an IEM during BL/infestor which included like half the people on this patchzerg list.
And he still had like 3 good runs in HotS, and all of that was long after he was diagnosed with Cervical Kyphosis and Carpal Tunnel. So he was still doing things when Terran wasn't OP even though his body was a trainwreck.
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
And thats why I couldnt be on a desk, I wouldnt need to be egged on. I'd have named 20 or so straight out.
On March 18 2016 10:25 Circumstance wrote: I remember in 2014, Apollo and Kaelaris were discussing the idea of patch Zergs in a WCS cast, and Apollo egged on Kaelaris to actually name a name. Kaelaris said you firet, and Apollo, on stream, in one of the highest-profile SC2 leagues, named JonnyRecco.
And thats why I couldnt be on a desk, I wouldnt need to be egged on. I'd have named 20 or so straight out.
On March 18 2016 12:05 Doodsmack wrote: Blizzard's lack of response to BL/infestor is their worst move with SC2.
I think Swarm Hosts were worse.... I know BL/infestor was super overpowered and broken, but swarm hosts were just downright EMBARRASSING.
Is this the part where everybody gets to tell what they hate the most? I think Warpgates, Forcefields, Dark Templar and Oracles are still all worse and ruind more games every season than BL/Infestor and Swarm Hosts ruined during the whole existance of SC2.
Just Forcefield is enough for me. How many game decided by one forcefield on a ramp. Honestly Zerg had to wait 5 years to have a solution against it.
On March 18 2016 19:01 Ragnarork wrote: I wonder how would this thread have been if this was during the BL/Infestor era.
Lot more red messages at the bottom of nearly every post. :>
Not really. From what I remember, the mods pretty much stopped acting against balance whining near the end of the period. After 6 months of obvious imbalances, it was fine to call it that
It's a long time ago though, my memory may be off.
On March 18 2016 18:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't wanted to say that he only won in gomtvt times, but iirc 2 gsl wins were during that time?
Technically 3 but one of his GSL wins was the GSL WC which didn't fall to GomTvT race distributions.
I don't count that one as GSL tbh :D
He got a pin for it. If you get a pin it counts!
Haha i guess. Technically it counts, but deep inside we all know Mvp only won 3 GSLs
Shame he lost his last GSL finals to Life, otherwise we could post his G5L trophy whenever someone claims he only won 4 GSLs
anyone who doesn't think life patchzerg'd that title is a fool
That's why Mvp was #1 and Life #2 and now Life is lost!
An healthy Mvp would have been scary
I think it's more impressive that the youngest gsl champ, royal roaded his way to victory in a bo7 mindgame war vs freaking mvp.
Ot: there's a big difference between being a patch zerg and simply have an insane zvz in an era where zergs are dominating. This is why people like nerchio and symbol should not be on the list. Patch zerg the term is used around bl/inf era and is why we should not discuss patch tosses and patch terrans. Zergs were also way too strong after the widow mine nerf against terran, so if this era was also included in the patch zerg discussion, scarlett would've been number one. Not only did she abuse broods in wol, but seeing her beat top tier korean terrans all the time, simply by massing mutas every game is one of my personal sickening moments. Nevertheless this is a hugely disrespectful topic towards the players.
On March 18 2016 21:59 A_Scarecrow wrote: when you doing patchterran or patchtoss. they deserve it more imo
There never were. I don't recall random foreign terrans/protoss popping out of nowhere and upsetting everyone with combos as OP as BL/infestor
Thorzain ? Even got the game patched
But he was not a random, since afterwards he even did well against koreans of the same race (DH vs Polt), whereas JonnyRecco and the likes can be called randoms because after the OP era they disappeared. ThorZAiN was just a sleeper, like Snute and Bunny.
On March 18 2016 18:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't wanted to say that he only won in gomtvt times, but iirc 2 gsl wins were during that time?
Technically 3 but one of his GSL wins was the GSL WC which didn't fall to GomTvT race distributions.
I don't count that one as GSL tbh :D
He got a pin for it. If you get a pin it counts!
IS that a ESL Germany pin ? If not. It doesn't count.
On March 18 2016 22:04 Poopi wrote:
On March 18 2016 21:59 A_Scarecrow wrote: when you doing patchterran or patchtoss. they deserve it more imo
There never were. I don't recall random foreign terrans/protoss popping out of nowhere and upsetting everyone with combos as OP as BL/infestor
Thorzain ? Even got the game patched
But he was not a random, since afterwards he even did well against koreans of the same race (DH vs Polt), whereas JonnyRecco and the likes can be called randoms because after the OP era they disappeared. ThorZAiN was just a sleeper, like Snute and Bunny.
Sure but there's Leenock in here and he is a better name than Thorzain. Also Roro was really good
On March 18 2016 23:18 Big J wrote: According to his liquipedia page JonnyRecco beat Snute and a bunch of Koreans in various online Cups in 2014. #notapatchzerg
On March 18 2016 03:25 blade55555 wrote: Can we get a PatchToss and PatchTerran list plox.
PatchToss: Arthur
PatchTerran: INnoVation, Flash, Marineking
Also Maru
Maru was too good during blink era. to count.
wait... the other ones were serious?
The only meta that was bad for Inno that he did well in briefly was BL/infestor.
Flash/Inno peak in 2013 coincided with Hellbat and MMMM. Once those fell off he got beat by duckdeok.
Flash/Inno peak in 2014 coincided with the buff of thors, rebuff of mines, and nerf of Blink Era. They fall after Zerg/Protoss get used to meta.
Flash/Inno peak in 2015 coincided with nerf of SH, rise of mech.
How can someone with your reputation on TL says bullshit stuff like that?
Unless your definition of Patch Xrace is different than mine, what you just said is outright stupid. IMO, IMO,a patch terran/zerg/toss is a player that does great when is race is OP, and poorly when is race is balance.. If your defnition of a patch player is someone doing well after a buff to his race, then i apologize, you are right, but i doubt thats the definition most people would say.
But if your definition of a Patch player is actually the one underlined, then, you are just soo wrong that even your god awfull top 15 of HotS woudl look great beside it.
I agree terrans were OP early hots because of hellbats. But then, terrans were the weakest race for almost a year, and their representation/performance were so low it was never seen before in the history of sc2. Can you blame Inno for doing poorly? when almost every other terrans in Korea (except Maru) were doing poorly too?
But the stupidest point about your comment is Inno doing well after they revert the WM's nerf. Terrans were never OP, even, in 2015 they were arguably the worst race, close to being UP:
In 2015:
FOR 21 PREMIER TOURNAMENTS (42 finalist)
8 TERRANS in finals. 4 wins 4 loss = 19% (far from the 33% perfect balance) 18 ZERGS in finals. 6 wins 12 loss = 43% (way above 33%) 16 TOSS in finals. 11 wins 5 loss = 38% (even less than zergs)
And Innovation was performing incredibly well in 2015, in PL and individual league.
Hows that a patchterran? Comming from a TL writer, i expected at least a bit of credibility....
P.S: If your definition of PatchTerran is different than mine, then i understand.
And if you were trolling (didnt read the whole thread), im sorry, you really, really got me.
On March 18 2016 12:36 ZenithM wrote: I remember those days when I used to troll TL with the phrase "sick new up-and-coming talented Zerg player" and variations. The thing is, you could know that I was obviously trolling, but you can't really ban a guy for praising a player, so I got away most of the time with this. Most of the time ;D.
Lol yeah, there was a period of time with a lot of those talented zergs popping up likes mushrooms indeed :D
The time wheere "Amazing fungal" turned into an oxymoron.
Didn't the term patchzerg come around the time of the queen ground range buff? idk when it first started getting thrown around it didnt make much sense to me no much less so now as it is applied to any zerg who used bl infestor.
On March 19 2016 03:09 Kazahk wrote: Didn't the term patchzerg come around the time of the queen ground range buff? idk when it first started getting thrown around it didnt make much sense to me no much less so now as it is applied to any zerg who used bl infestor.
BL-infestor is an army composition that is intrinsically tied with the queen range buff, at least as far as the timeline in SC2's history is concerned. Gameplay-wise, Zerg got very good at early game defense, which allowed them to pool resources much faster and reach that army composition too quickly for the other races to deal with efficiently.
On March 19 2016 03:09 Kazahk wrote: Didn't the term patchzerg come around the time of the queen ground range buff? idk when it first started getting thrown around it didnt make much sense to me no much less so now as it is applied to any zerg who used bl infestor.
BL-infestor is an army composition that is intrinsically tied with the queen range buff, at least as far as the timeline in SC2's history is concerned. Gameplay-wise, Zerg got very good at early game defense, which allowed them to pool resources much faster and reach that army composition too quickly for the other races to deal with efficiently.
That plus infestor's fungals were instant so it was incredibly easy on the zerg side and hard on the other side (especially terrans because of marines), the easy holds early game and the OP+easy composition lategame allowed any top master to quickly become relevant, and current pros to beat higher tier players (VortiX...).
Innovation has the best all time Aligulac rating out of any terran player. Regardless of definition, it's absolutely ridicoulous to claim he is a patch terran. At his peak someone like Taeja was just even compared to him. Taeja's tournament results are however inflated because he met so many weaker players. Good thing that Aligulac takes skill into account so we can get rid of bias.
On March 19 2016 10:37 Hider wrote: Innovation has the best all time Aligulac rating out of any terran player. Regardless of definition, it's absolutely ridicoulous to claim he is a patch terran. At his peak someone like Taeja was just even compared to him. Taeja's tournament results are however inflated because he met so many weaker players. Good thing that Aligulac takes skill into account so we can get rid of bias.
Aligulac is one of the worst ways to measure a players skill.
On March 19 2016 10:37 Hider wrote: Innovation has the best all time Aligulac rating out of any terran player. Regardless of definition, it's absolutely ridicoulous to claim he is a patch terran. At his peak someone like Taeja was just even compared to him. Taeja's tournament results are however inflated because he met so many weaker players. Good thing that Aligulac takes skill into account so we can get rid of bias.
Aligulac is one of the worst ways to measure a players skill.
Okay, stats and raw numbers over a large sample size is a bad method? You want to use your feelings to judge skills? Emotions?
Or do you think you accuarately can judge how good a player was over hundreds of hundreds of games several years ago based on qualitative analysis?
On March 19 2016 10:37 Hider wrote: Innovation has the best all time Aligulac rating out of any terran player. Regardless of definition, it's absolutely ridicoulous to claim he is a patch terran. At his peak someone like Taeja was just even compared to him. Taeja's tournament results are however inflated because he met so many weaker players. Good thing that Aligulac takes skill into account so we can get rid of bias.
Aligulac is one of the worst ways to measure a players skill.
Okay, stats and raw numbers over a large sample size is a bad method? You want to use your feelings to judge skills? Emotions?
Or do you think you accuarately can judge how good a player was over hundreds of hundreds of games several years ago based on qualitative analysis?
Innovation is 12-20 in games and 4-9 in series vs TaeJa, with 2 of Inno's wins coming on online settings. That record is pretty darn one-sided.
On March 19 2016 10:37 Hider wrote: Innovation has the best all time Aligulac rating out of any terran player. Regardless of definition, it's absolutely ridicoulous to claim he is a patch terran. At his peak someone like Taeja was just even compared to him. Taeja's tournament results are however inflated because he met so many weaker players. Good thing that Aligulac takes skill into account so we can get rid of bias.
Aligulac is one of the worst ways to measure a players skill.
Okay, stats and raw numbers over a large sample size is a bad method? You want to use your feelings to judge skills? Emotions?
Or do you think you accuarately can judge how good a player was over hundreds of hundreds of games several years ago based on qualitative analysis?
Innovation is 12-20 in games and 4-9 in series vs TaeJa, with 2 of Inno's wins coming on online settings. That record is pretty darn one-sided.
Good thing reasonable people dont measure skill in a head to head record. With that logic I am sure we could get some pretty absurd conclusions.
Did you know ViBE won the WCS 2012 USA championship, and is thus the last American player to ever win a major tournament? Did you know his highest placing in any other major tournament was Ro32?
Actually he made it to the finals of WCS NA 2012 before getting wrecked by Scarlett.
On March 18 2016 12:12 Blardy wrote: With only reading the title, I knew with 100% certainty that Sniper would be #1. Appears out of nowhere to win a GSL and to never be seen again.
To be fair he had carried MVP in the latter half of 2012 in team leagues mostly without BR infestor.
Here's a question. Can we consider Freaky a patchzerg? In a way he was a proto-patchzerg. He was wrecking face with infestors before it was cool (for anyone but himself and Destiny). But his games were sweet. Before we started seeing something like that in every game. (But with more broodlords).
Actually I guess that may have been before the queen buff, so nevermind.
On March 19 2016 13:12 arb wrote: tried to watch some of those games and im just stuck wondering do people actually find that shit entertaining?
PvZ was mostly shit. TvZ could still be really good at times.
Honestly, I didn't think the era was nearly as bad as people made it out to be. Blink era might be worse, with Maru and Polt being a major reason of making me think otherwise.
On March 19 2016 13:12 arb wrote: tried to watch some of those games and im just stuck wondering do people actually find that shit entertaining?
you realize the purpose of this thread was to showcase the worst games including BL/Infestor? There were some very sick games, Ryung vs DRG on Whirlwind for example and many others.
On March 22 2016 08:57 TheDougler wrote: Here's a question. Can we consider Freaky a patchzerg? In a way he was a proto-patchzerg. He was wrecking face with infestors before it was cool (for anyone but himself and Destiny). But his games were sweet. Before we started seeing something like that in every game. (But with more broodlords).
Actually I guess that may have been before the queen buff, so nevermind.
You put Leenock on this list and made an exemption for Stephano; whereas, you can make an argument that Leenock is actually one of the most versatile zerg players. W-t-h.
On March 22 2016 11:27 StarStruck wrote: You put Leenock on this list and made an exemption for Stephano; whereas, you can make an argument that Leenock is actually one of the most versatile zerg players. W-t-h.
Leenock was amazing, but what qualified him here is that he was ridiculously efficient with BL/inf (see his infamous game vs HerO on Antiga or the one vs Taeja on Cloud Kingdom where he beats a Terran up in bases and 30 supply up on ghost/viking with queen/fungal/BL)
So the point is that Leenock was actually just so good at abusing things he didn't have to abuse that he was an abuser.
On March 19 2016 13:12 arb wrote: tried to watch some of those games and im just stuck wondering do people actually find that shit entertaining?
PvZ was mostly shit. TvZ could still be really good at times.
Honestly, I didn't think the era was nearly as bad as people made it out to be. Blink era might be worse, with Maru and Polt being a major reason of making me think otherwise.
balance-wise the blink era was far worse but in terms of how entertaining the meta was the BL/infestor era was the worst era in sc2 history without any competition.
haha, the tension of the coin flip between the zerg player scoring the money neural or if the protoss will get the perfect flush of an archon toilet: PvZ during this era (like in that hero vs leenock game). It sucked in the sense that the game boiled down to that one moment at the end, but at the time, as a viewer, it was a real treat when the protoss pulled it off and beat the zerg down (I can recall at least one or two times it happened on daybreak)
On March 23 2016 01:02 fenrysk wrote: haha, the tension of the coin flip between the zerg player scoring the money neural or if the protoss will get the perfect flush of an archon toilet: PvZ during this era (like in that hero vs leenock game). It sucked in the sense that the game boiled down to that one moment at the end, but at the time, as a viewer, it was a real treat when the protoss pulled it off and beat the zerg down (I can recall at least one or two times it happened on daybreak)
One of my deepest regrets is that I largely missed late WoL (I took a break from watching competitive SC for about a year around this time). Mostly because I really enjoy disastrousness in general. Heck, it's kind of indecent how much I enjoyed watching SH games with a LR thread full of people poking their own eyes out.
...I think I might be a bad person.
For me, though, the whole BL/Infestor thing always makes me remember how terrible literally everyone was in WoL Beta. I remember people complaining about how bad the Infestor was constantly, and Blizzard buffing it over and over again because no one was using it. They even put the fungal projectile thing in for a patch, and everyone literally lost their minds complaining about how hard it was to use now until they took it out again.
Anyway, I plan to take some time this weekend to catch up on what I missed. It'll be an Easter treat...or at least appropriate viewing for Good Friday.
On March 19 2016 13:12 arb wrote: tried to watch some of those games and im just stuck wondering do people actually find that shit entertaining?
PvZ was mostly shit. TvZ could still be really good at times.
Honestly, I didn't think the era was nearly as bad as people made it out to be. Blink era might be worse, with Maru and Polt being a major reason of making me think otherwise.
balance-wise the blink era was far worse but in terms of how entertaining the meta was the BL/infestor era was the worst era in sc2 history without any competition.
I found BL games more entertaining than SH. But I can see why one might disagree.
Did you know ViBE won the WCS 2012 USA championship, and is thus the last American player to ever win a major tournament? Did you know his highest placing in any other major tournament was Ro32?
Actually he made it to the finals of WCS NA 2012 before getting wrecked by Scarlett.
Man...when random people like ViBE were a thing...
I'm not sure if RorO should be ranked that high. He has been the best Zerg in Proleague for over 2 years ( 2012-13 and 2014 Proleague). While his results in the individual leagues weren't quite up to par, i would argue that him being the best Zerg in Proleague for a long time makes up for that quite a bit
EPT
Leenock![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/trivialrank/aipomcrylaughing.gif)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/bird_blue_16.png)
SaintSnorlax and 
2012 StarCraft II World Championship Series/Europe/Nationals/United Kingdom
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUwZpKRCEAA_YI3.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PtLmv0c.png)
