|
On March 14 2016 21:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 06:01 Elentos wrote:On March 14 2016 05:55 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand sure why so many are advocating for Goliath 2.0 when Vikings basically are Goliath 2.0. The only real difference is separate weapon upgrades, so why not advocate for that and give Thor a different role? Well, there's the difference that the viking isn't built from the factory (which is where people would want a decent AA unit to be from what I gather) and also the cumbersome switching between ground and air mode. And also that fighting air with air makes for less interesting unit dynamics. That's why it's more interesting watching marines chasing Mutas, Goliaths chasing Carriers, Hidras Phoenixes, etc.
This is also why some of us ask for flattening the stalker AA damage to 14 instead of 10+4.
Atm the best anti air options for protoss are:
Phoenix: Best AA against Phoenix (derp), Muta, early game Liberator, Oracle, Medivac, Viking.
Archon: Best AA against lategame Muta, Corruptor, Viking and Phoenix.
Tempest: Best AA against lategame mass Liberators. Good vs Vipers?
HT feedback: Best antiair against Vipers.
|
On March 14 2016 21:41 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 21:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On March 14 2016 06:01 Elentos wrote:On March 14 2016 05:55 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand sure why so many are advocating for Goliath 2.0 when Vikings basically are Goliath 2.0. The only real difference is separate weapon upgrades, so why not advocate for that and give Thor a different role? Well, there's the difference that the viking isn't built from the factory (which is where people would want a decent AA unit to be from what I gather) and also the cumbersome switching between ground and air mode. And also that fighting air with air makes for less interesting unit dynamics. That's why it's more interesting watching marines chasing Mutas, Goliaths chasing Carriers, Hidras Phoenixes, etc. This is also why some of us ask for flattening the stalker AA damage to 14 instead of 10+4. Atm the best anti air options for protoss are: Phoenix: Best AA against Phoenix (derp), Muta, early game Liberator, Oracle, Medivac, Viking. Archon: Best AA against lategame Muta, Corruptor, Viking and Phoenix. Tempest: Best AA against lategame mass Liberators. Good vs Vipers? HT feedback: Best antiair against Vipers.
I know and i agree with that completely. Protoss in particular has very strong air to air counters and very mediocre ground to air. It's somewhat similar to SC2 mech.
|
On March 14 2016 21:33 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 21:30 Gwavajuice wrote:
The debate about mech pollutes everything is high-jacking the main issue of Terrans : TvT is at its lamest since sc2 release, and it's 100% because of tankivacs.
I don't see how buffing thors will solve this (unless you make thors ridiculously OP in all match ups) .
And thinking the solution necessarily has to come from a buff of a factory unit is equally senseless.
It's not about a bio vs mech issue (anyway, since when medivacs and tanks are bio units?) it's about a design that is showing its limits more and more every day.
This is the #1 ermegency for Terrans, who gives a flying f to thors and banshees when you can have 10 sieged tanks in medivacs, supported by 50 stimed marines, and can drop them anywhere you want? You must have missed that part of HotS where, if you didn't die in the battle of gas first build orders, you died to a doom drop with unsieged tanks at some point. That was atrocious as hell.
But at least those games past that stage becomes a damn beautiful tactical play.
Right now tank medivac basically makes the whole game a potential sudden disaster
|
On March 14 2016 21:51 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 21:33 Elentos wrote:On March 14 2016 21:30 Gwavajuice wrote:
The debate about mech pollutes everything is high-jacking the main issue of Terrans : TvT is at its lamest since sc2 release, and it's 100% because of tankivacs.
I don't see how buffing thors will solve this (unless you make thors ridiculously OP in all match ups) .
And thinking the solution necessarily has to come from a buff of a factory unit is equally senseless.
It's not about a bio vs mech issue (anyway, since when medivacs and tanks are bio units?) it's about a design that is showing its limits more and more every day.
This is the #1 ermegency for Terrans, who gives a flying f to thors and banshees when you can have 10 sieged tanks in medivacs, supported by 50 stimed marines, and can drop them anywhere you want? You must have missed that part of HotS where, if you didn't die in the battle of gas first build orders, you died to a doom drop with unsieged tanks at some point. That was atrocious as hell. But at least those games past that stage becomes a damn beautiful tactical play. Right now tank medivac basically makes the whole game a potential sudden disaster
Marine/tank vs marine/tank always had room for that potential sudden disaster in HotS aswell. It only went beyond that if you couldn't find an avenue for a doom drop, or if you for some reason not in the mood for a doom drop to begin with. And any LotV TvT that goes to 4+ bases still has many of those beautiful elements to it.
|
On March 14 2016 21:33 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 21:30 Gwavajuice wrote:
The debate about mech pollutes everything is high-jacking the main issue of Terrans : TvT is at its lamest since sc2 release, and it's 100% because of tankivacs.
I don't see how buffing thors will solve this (unless you make thors ridiculously OP in all match ups) .
And thinking the solution necessarily has to come from a buff of a factory unit is equally senseless.
It's not about a bio vs mech issue (anyway, since when medivacs and tanks are bio units?) it's about a design that is showing its limits more and more every day.
This is the #1 ermegency for Terrans, who gives a flying f to thors and banshees when you can have 10 sieged tanks in medivacs, supported by 50 stimed marines, and can drop them anywhere you want? You must have missed that part of HotS where, if you didn't die in the battle of gas first build orders, you died to a doom drop with unsieged tanks at some point. That was atrocious as hell.
Come on, I know you are trolling me and that you're clever enough to see this wasn't what HotS was about. 
+ Show Spoiler +Personally, I find doom drops even easier to defend in LotV than in HotS, I don't see why people are talking about that. Anyway, Tankivac's issue is not about doom drops.
The issue about tankivacs is about how the engagement occurs, when you just need one opening - and there is always one - and then boost -> drop -> stim -> win. The game is decided on reflexes only, reflexes are cool but sc2 should have so much more to offer (and it has in every other match ups) and most importantly you are always playing/watching the same basic and witless game, over and over.
We're stuck in this dumb meta, we need a rescue to get out.
|
On March 14 2016 22:51 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 21:33 Elentos wrote:On March 14 2016 21:30 Gwavajuice wrote:
The debate about mech pollutes everything is high-jacking the main issue of Terrans : TvT is at its lamest since sc2 release, and it's 100% because of tankivacs.
I don't see how buffing thors will solve this (unless you make thors ridiculously OP in all match ups) .
And thinking the solution necessarily has to come from a buff of a factory unit is equally senseless.
It's not about a bio vs mech issue (anyway, since when medivacs and tanks are bio units?) it's about a design that is showing its limits more and more every day.
This is the #1 ermegency for Terrans, who gives a flying f to thors and banshees when you can have 10 sieged tanks in medivacs, supported by 50 stimed marines, and can drop them anywhere you want? You must have missed that part of HotS where, if you didn't die in the battle of gas first build orders, you died to a doom drop with unsieged tanks at some point. That was atrocious as hell. Come on, I know you are trolling me and that you're clever enough to see this wasn't what HotS was about.
That is exactly what happened in HotS marine/tank TvT for the bigger part of 2014 and 2015, actually. They only times in HotS TvT I didn't have to worry about doom drops flying in was when I was playing mech. I'd rather have tankivacs stay in the game then go back to 2014 HotS.
Also don't say all games follow the same path, it's just not true. TY vs aLive played out entirely different from TY vs Ryung. Entirely different strategical approaches. If you get to 4+ bases I firmly believe TvT still has all of its good aspects intact.
So of course the problem with flying tanks is that it facilitates people killing each other - or themselves - in stupid ways before the game gets that far.
|
Cyro> Yeah I guess I forgot about how map "diversity" did not help in bringing back FFE.
On March 14 2016 02:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 02:29 PPN wrote:On March 14 2016 02:04 Big J wrote:On March 14 2016 01:08 ShambhalaWar wrote:On March 12 2016 21:08 Cyro wrote:No, for example ZvP : if P defends early drop, then he has agressive options (oracle/dt/warprism/adept), and Zerg defends.
But if zerg has not these agressive options, zerg defends, then defends, then defends, then defends, etc... Z has more effective tools to end games early-mid right now. If you feel that's too defensive, imagine how other players are feeling I think he means zerg should have early game options for aggression, I agree that zerg should have early options like every other race. There should be diversity in strategy, otherwise both t and p will know without scout, "oh zerg is defending and expanding, cause what else can zerg do?" Plus, defending all the time is really boring, makes for not a fun game.
Does anybody else think if they nerf overlord drop back to lair again, nobody will use it AGAIN, just like we already know nobody used it before? I don't think overlords wouldn't be used, but they might fall out of popularity for some time. They are still good and cheap for counterattacking in the midgame, it's just a lot of APM and at the moment the game isn't so well-figured out that the difference between killing 5 workers and delaying a push or not in the midgame makes that much of a difference. I have absolutely no clue how Protoss would objectively say they don't have enough options early. Their standards to do any sort of bullshit unpunished has just been held way too high during HotS times. It makes for good gameplay if a race can be punished for teching high, or delaying a steady production build up for a 6 gateway explosion, but some players only ever think that making a lot of bases and workers should be punishable. Well, that's not how spending money works, if you spend it on something that cannot fight now and you get attacked then obviously you could have made a better choice, it doesn't matter whether it is a 2 base, mass gas, build dark shrine build or a 3rd base with 60 drones. Don't play on words, don't go the easy troll way. When Protoss players say they don't have enough options, they mean early game before they choose their tech path. Forge expand is out of trend also because of Overlord drop and Ravagers. Wtf do you expect us to do against an Overlord drop that can happen right as we are in the middle of researching warpgate & defending with 1 unit besides gateway/gaz 19 -> nexus -> core? Because of how fast the game starts, we don't even have an hallucination ready to scout evo chamber. Basically we are forced to play blind with that risk in mind and/or make an adept and pray evo chamber is not built too deep in so that we may find it. Wait, that is the argument? FFE? Lol, yeah. Make it viable in PvP first if you actually think that FFE makes for truely different and better gameplay and don't steal lifetime of non-Protoss players with that sleepinfusing, unstrategical and uninteractive build order.
Sorry if you can't see the finesse that having the choice between FFE and Gateway expand could bring to the early game of Protoss in PvZ, just like Zerg could threaten Protoss depending on timing of Spawning Pool. You know, reacting and inverting buildings order depending on what you see and stuff. No idea why you keep spitting your irrelevant bullshit about BL/Infestor or PvP.
On March 14 2016 07:20 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 02:04 Big J wrote:On March 14 2016 01:08 ShambhalaWar wrote:On March 12 2016 21:08 Cyro wrote:No, for example ZvP : if P defends early drop, then he has agressive options (oracle/dt/warprism/adept), and Zerg defends.
But if zerg has not these agressive options, zerg defends, then defends, then defends, then defends, etc... Z has more effective tools to end games early-mid right now. If you feel that's too defensive, imagine how other players are feeling I think he means zerg should have early game options for aggression, I agree that zerg should have early options like every other race. There should be diversity in strategy, otherwise both t and p will know without scout, "oh zerg is defending and expanding, cause what else can zerg do?" Plus, defending all the time is really boring, makes for not a fun game.
Does anybody else think if they nerf overlord drop back to lair again, nobody will use it AGAIN, just like we already know nobody used it before? I don't think overlords wouldn't be used, but they might fall out of popularity for some time. They are still good and cheap for counterattacking in the midgame, it's just a lot of APM and at the moment the game isn't so well-figured out that the difference between killing 5 workers and delaying a push or not in the midgame makes that much of a difference. As transports overlords are horrendous, when compared to their counterparts in other races. 1) They are slow, too slow to run away from almost anything in the game (even with the speed upgrade) 2) They cannot heal units 3) The don't have boosters 4) You cannot warp in or create a ton of units at their location. They have maybe 10% of he utility of any other transport in the game, which is way drop harass mid game is almost non-existent. By mid-game most overlords near someone's base have already been sniped or sac'd for a scout. Maybe if one was converted as a transport early game, and for some reason wasn't hunted down after first use, I've seen people return to using it. What's the point if you can just make a nydus. I've seen Scarlett use bane drops recently in direct engagements zvp, and some use for harass of mineral lines, but I think such strats are only good early game. Subverting forcefield through drops is a good utility, but that fell out a long time ago. I think the only reason it is back is because of the stage at which it is available in the game. We used to have drop at lair tech, take a trip back in time to that moment... and you see a tech that nobody used. If you told people back then that, "We are going to buff drops by taking away ventral sacs and allowing you to convert one at a time for a net higher gas cost," people would have considered this a nerf instead of a buff. And people still wouldn't have used drops.
You forgot about the part where an Overlord is a flying supply scouting units that can creep. Please it does not need to be the quickest to get or the best drop units of the game on top of that. It is still usefull in mid-game to make cheap lings drop in small amount if you have spare APM. I would not mind if Overlord could be slightly faster when able to transport though. And you said it, you already have the invincible/transfusable Nydus for the bigger "drop".
|
On March 14 2016 23:03 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 22:51 Gwavajuice wrote:On March 14 2016 21:33 Elentos wrote:On March 14 2016 21:30 Gwavajuice wrote:
The debate about mech pollutes everything is high-jacking the main issue of Terrans : TvT is at its lamest since sc2 release, and it's 100% because of tankivacs.
I don't see how buffing thors will solve this (unless you make thors ridiculously OP in all match ups) .
And thinking the solution necessarily has to come from a buff of a factory unit is equally senseless.
It's not about a bio vs mech issue (anyway, since when medivacs and tanks are bio units?) it's about a design that is showing its limits more and more every day.
This is the #1 ermegency for Terrans, who gives a flying f to thors and banshees when you can have 10 sieged tanks in medivacs, supported by 50 stimed marines, and can drop them anywhere you want? You must have missed that part of HotS where, if you didn't die in the battle of gas first build orders, you died to a doom drop with unsieged tanks at some point. That was atrocious as hell. Come on, I know you are trolling me and that you're clever enough to see this wasn't what HotS was about. That is exactly what happened in HotS marine/tank TvT for the bigger part of 2014 and 2015, actually. They only times in HotS TvT I didn't have to worry about doom drops flying in was when I was playing mech. I'd rather have tankivacs stay in the game then go back to 2014 HotS. Also don't say all games follow the same path, it's just not true. TY vs aLive played out entirely different from TY vs Ryung. Entirely different strategical approaches. If you get to 4+ bases I firmly believe TvT still has all of its good aspects intact. So of course the problem with flying tanks is that it facilitates people to kill each other - or themselves - in stupid ways before the game gets that far.
No. Just no. Rewatch all Polt/Bomber/MMA games in WCS when they were usually playing bio and tried to doom drop each other, see the finesse needed, all the subtil army movement, both defensive and offensive, and you'll see that even when players choosed (emphasis on "choosed") to abuse doom drops, it was more interesting than LotV TvT.
HotS was : unsiege tanks, load them, boost, drop and siege them again, hoping your opponent didn't see it coming and doesn't use all this time when your tanks are basically dead weight to kill you. LoTV is just : keep your sieged tanks in your medivac, you're 100% safe, just wait for the good moment to drop them and win.
(and don't get me started with game diversity, you can't have forgot : this was our daily TvT bread and butter.)
|
On March 14 2016 23:48 Gwavajuice wrote:
No. Just no. Rewatch all Polt/Bomber/MMA games in WCS when they were usually playing bio and tried to doom drop each other, see the finesse needed, all the subtil army movement, both defensive and offensive, and you'll see that even when players choosed (emphasis on "choosed") to abuse doom drops, it was more interesting than LotV TvT.
It wasn't to me. Neither to watch, nor to play. Every time I saw a doom drop I sighed. Sure there were some great games in there, but there are great games in the current meta, too, so that doesn't mean anything to me. The TvTs I enjoyed the most in mid to late HotS generally involved at least 1 player meching.
On March 14 2016 23:48 Gwavajuice wrote:
you're 100% safe
You're not 100% safe just because you have tanks in medivacs, what even is this?
On March 14 2016 23:48 Gwavajuice wrote:(and don't get me started with game diversity, you can't have forgot : this was our daily TvT bread and butter.)
Of course I wouldn't forget this. How would I? TvT in HotS was my personal fucking hell. It wasn't my worst matchup, still isn't to date, but it's always been the matchup I've hated playing the most. And I still hate playing it (mostly because it constitutes like 40% of my ladder games), but slightly less. Not to mention most of the openers the thread lists I still see used regularly in their LotV versions.
And as I said, I don't even like TvT. I'm just cautious about people saying removing tankivacs immediately makes the matchup better, because all I start thinking of is how I best defend doom drops without them.
|
I do not recall any passionate debates about the sad state of TvT during HOTS (after Hellbat nerf). In fact, I recall many saying that TvT it was one of the best mirror match-ups, if not the best match-up in the entire game. Therefore, I am a bit puzzled about these recent threads as to how TvT would be so incredibly bad if anything was done to nerf the Tankivac - I wonder what the motivation really is for those arguing that point.
On the flip side, there are quite a few people very passionate about seeing the Tankivac gone from TvT nowadays. We are upset at the state of Terran design because we do not believe that air vs. air should be the end game, nor the Tankivac. We enjoy the thought process that comes with splits, concaves, high ground advantages, choke points, flanks, dropping on top of tanks, risk with siege/unsiege, deciding when to roll in unsieged based on quick judgement, etc. All aspects of Terran that create tremendous opportunities to showcase your reasoning/thinking/strategy and even deceive your opponent so that you can set him/her up.
Tankivacs kill alot of that. You re-scan your enemy's army to decide on the best of the numerous courses of actions that I listed above, depending on how your opponent is setting up his forces, and nope... too late - Those 10 sieged up tanks outside my Natural are just about to drop my production 2 seconds earlier than I can get there because my orbital scans were 3 seconds apart. I lose.
I do not watch every Terran's stream, but I have sensed the frustration with this design from Nathanias, Avilo, and Ruff inclusively. (others?) Oddly enough, I have rarely seen these three players off-race in the past year (except Avilo at times), and they have all been off-racing in just the past week after Blizzard announced it might keep the Tankivac. Avilo says he may consider playing Zerg until it is fixed, Nate has been explaining on stream how Protoss is the new Terran in LOTV, and Ruff said two weeks ago he never off-races and was playing Protoss canon-cheese last week.
|
On March 15 2016 01:04 PressureSC2 wrote:
I wonder what the motivation really is for those arguing that point.
You got me, I'm on the payroll of the secret tankivac lobby.
|
On March 15 2016 01:08 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2016 01:04 PressureSC2 wrote:
I wonder what the motivation really is for those arguing that point. You got me, I'm on the payroll of the secret tankivac lobby.
A confession, nice. I was thinking more in terms of those who do not play Terran as their main race. You know you are out there. O.O
|
Yep, back in HotS TvT was voted in many polls (including in TL) to be the best mirror and the second best MU overall (behind TvZ). Also in the feedback update where blizz first talked about the idea of removing it theres was a huge approval from the community.
Also saying TvT would be worst if there was no tankivac is hyperbole, we have no idea how TvT without tanks looks in LotV, since TvT was always a very positional and strategical MU, the changes of pace, timings and maps play a huge role on it and since we've had tankivacs since day 1 we don't know how it looks without them.
|
On March 15 2016 01:12 PressureSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2016 01:08 Elentos wrote:On March 15 2016 01:04 PressureSC2 wrote:
I wonder what the motivation really is for those arguing that point. You got me, I'm on the payroll of the secret tankivac lobby. A confession, nice. I was thinking more in terms of those who do not play Terran as their main race. You know you are out there. O.O
I will say though, if the tankivac removal actually leads to mech resurging a bit in TvT I'd be okay with it. Mech vs bio was my favorite thing in HotS mirrors. Although that will also depend on the maps.
On March 15 2016 01:15 Lexender wrote:
Also saying TvT would be worst if there was no tankivac is hyperbole, we have no idea how TvT without tanks looks in LotV, since TvT was always a very positional and strategical MU, the changes of pace, timings and maps play a huge role on it and since we've had tankivacs since day 1 we don't know how it looks without them.
There's no real reason to assume it would be too different from HotS, it's the only change that has majorly influenced the matchup. Might see liberator play (and thus increased air focus) to break siege lines in longer games if tanks can't be moved though.
|
The problem with the tankivac is the medivac tbh. Medivacs create so much 'problems' that i think this was one of the worse changes from bw. (if we want to compare it to that)
Overall it might only be a syndrom though and not the cause, the pace of the game is simply a little to fast.
|
Please do something with BCs, maybe BCs can only lift tanks ?
|
Also in the feedback update where blizz first talked about the idea of removing it theres was a huge approval from the community.
True. The poll can be viewed here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/504278-community-feedback-update-february-18
Poll: Medivacs can’t pick up Siege Tanks in Siege Mode
Good change (402) - 63%
Wrong change (106) - 17%
Bad change (85) - 13%
No change Needed (46) - 7%
As it currently stands almost a month later.
|
It's probably a well received change in general, but saying it received huge approval based on a poll with 650 votes is a bit over the top. It's not like all community figures agreed about this topic either.
|
On March 15 2016 01:29 Elentos wrote:It's probably a well received change in general, but saying it received huge approval based on a poll with 650 votes is a bit over the top.
If I had a better source, I would gladly post it. I would create a strawpoll - but someone would surely say that I created 1,000 accounts to vote and therefore it is biased.. :D Arguably, Korean Pros up for contract renewal next year are financially biased. There are few sources that are 100% reliable - I think we should look at it all as a whole including this poll.
|
On March 14 2016 23:21 PPN wrote:Cyro> Yeah I guess I forgot about how map "diversity" did not help in bringing back FFE. Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 02:59 Big J wrote:On March 14 2016 02:29 PPN wrote:On March 14 2016 02:04 Big J wrote:On March 14 2016 01:08 ShambhalaWar wrote:On March 12 2016 21:08 Cyro wrote:No, for example ZvP : if P defends early drop, then he has agressive options (oracle/dt/warprism/adept), and Zerg defends.
But if zerg has not these agressive options, zerg defends, then defends, then defends, then defends, etc... Z has more effective tools to end games early-mid right now. If you feel that's too defensive, imagine how other players are feeling I think he means zerg should have early game options for aggression, I agree that zerg should have early options like every other race. There should be diversity in strategy, otherwise both t and p will know without scout, "oh zerg is defending and expanding, cause what else can zerg do?" Plus, defending all the time is really boring, makes for not a fun game.
Does anybody else think if they nerf overlord drop back to lair again, nobody will use it AGAIN, just like we already know nobody used it before? I don't think overlords wouldn't be used, but they might fall out of popularity for some time. They are still good and cheap for counterattacking in the midgame, it's just a lot of APM and at the moment the game isn't so well-figured out that the difference between killing 5 workers and delaying a push or not in the midgame makes that much of a difference. I have absolutely no clue how Protoss would objectively say they don't have enough options early. Their standards to do any sort of bullshit unpunished has just been held way too high during HotS times. It makes for good gameplay if a race can be punished for teching high, or delaying a steady production build up for a 6 gateway explosion, but some players only ever think that making a lot of bases and workers should be punishable. Well, that's not how spending money works, if you spend it on something that cannot fight now and you get attacked then obviously you could have made a better choice, it doesn't matter whether it is a 2 base, mass gas, build dark shrine build or a 3rd base with 60 drones. Don't play on words, don't go the easy troll way. When Protoss players say they don't have enough options, they mean early game before they choose their tech path. Forge expand is out of trend also because of Overlord drop and Ravagers. Wtf do you expect us to do against an Overlord drop that can happen right as we are in the middle of researching warpgate & defending with 1 unit besides gateway/gaz 19 -> nexus -> core? Because of how fast the game starts, we don't even have an hallucination ready to scout evo chamber. Basically we are forced to play blind with that risk in mind and/or make an adept and pray evo chamber is not built too deep in so that we may find it. Wait, that is the argument? FFE? Lol, yeah. Make it viable in PvP first if you actually think that FFE makes for truely different and better gameplay and don't steal lifetime of non-Protoss players with that sleepinfusing, unstrategical and uninteractive build order. Sorry if you can't see the finesse that having the choice between FFE and Gateway expand could bring to the early game of Protoss in PvZ, just like Zerg could threaten Protoss depending on timing of Spawning Pool. You know, reacting and inverting buildings order depending on what you see and stuff. No idea why you keep spitting your irrelevant bullshit about BL/Infestor or PvP. Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 07:20 ShambhalaWar wrote:On March 14 2016 02:04 Big J wrote:On March 14 2016 01:08 ShambhalaWar wrote:On March 12 2016 21:08 Cyro wrote:No, for example ZvP : if P defends early drop, then he has agressive options (oracle/dt/warprism/adept), and Zerg defends.
But if zerg has not these agressive options, zerg defends, then defends, then defends, then defends, etc... Z has more effective tools to end games early-mid right now. If you feel that's too defensive, imagine how other players are feeling I think he means zerg should have early game options for aggression, I agree that zerg should have early options like every other race. There should be diversity in strategy, otherwise both t and p will know without scout, "oh zerg is defending and expanding, cause what else can zerg do?" Plus, defending all the time is really boring, makes for not a fun game.
Does anybody else think if they nerf overlord drop back to lair again, nobody will use it AGAIN, just like we already know nobody used it before? I don't think overlords wouldn't be used, but they might fall out of popularity for some time. They are still good and cheap for counterattacking in the midgame, it's just a lot of APM and at the moment the game isn't so well-figured out that the difference between killing 5 workers and delaying a push or not in the midgame makes that much of a difference. As transports overlords are horrendous, when compared to their counterparts in other races. 1) They are slow, too slow to run away from almost anything in the game (even with the speed upgrade) 2) They cannot heal units 3) The don't have boosters 4) You cannot warp in or create a ton of units at their location. They have maybe 10% of he utility of any other transport in the game, which is way drop harass mid game is almost non-existent. By mid-game most overlords near someone's base have already been sniped or sac'd for a scout. Maybe if one was converted as a transport early game, and for some reason wasn't hunted down after first use, I've seen people return to using it. What's the point if you can just make a nydus. I've seen Scarlett use bane drops recently in direct engagements zvp, and some use for harass of mineral lines, but I think such strats are only good early game. Subverting forcefield through drops is a good utility, but that fell out a long time ago. I think the only reason it is back is because of the stage at which it is available in the game. We used to have drop at lair tech, take a trip back in time to that moment... and you see a tech that nobody used. If you told people back then that, "We are going to buff drops by taking away ventral sacs and allowing you to convert one at a time for a net higher gas cost," people would have considered this a nerf instead of a buff. And people still wouldn't have used drops. You forgot about the part where an Overlord is a flying supply scouting units that can creep. Please it does not need to be the quickest to get or the best drop units of the game on top of that. It is still usefull in mid-game to make cheap lings drop in small amount if you have spare APM. I would not mind if Overlord could be slightly faster when able to transport though. And you said it, you already have the invincible/transfusable Nydus for the bigger "drop".
Nyndus isn't a reliable drop way.
It's only work as all-in vs greedy play where the other hasn't build enough army to kill it.
Imagine, you will drop and zerg has 14s to prepare, and knows where you drop....and you can't back....
Whereas to understand how zerg are forced to deal with drop, it's like you must deal with medivac boost with some stalker that can't hit air nor photon overcharge. You only have photon canon, and if you really want to kill medivac you're forced to go phoenix, and let say that liberator crush phoenix.
So understand how frustrating it is dealing with drop as zerg, a fortiori when you don't have a reliable dropship contrary to the other race.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
