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On March 14 2016 23:58 Elentos wrote:You're not 100% safe just because you have tanks in medivacs, what even is this?
What I mean is there is not a clear way for your opponent to kill your tankivacs, unless your marine support is dead for some reason. For instance, if marines stim towards you, you just boost back and drop tanks behind your own marines and you win the fight, Vikings are too slow and if they get too close from your marines, they're dead, etc.
That's why you see people keeping their tanks in the medivacs, no need to drop them before the moment when you actually want to hit your opponent, you stay in this configuration and you're safe, you just move around waiting for the opening that'll allow you to drop in the "money spot".
It's like in Japanese sabre movies, when the hero samurai has the perfect guard where he can parry all kind of attacks the villain may throw at him.
I'm insisting on this point because to me it's the core of the issue, if we had just one way to correctly engage this "guard", like I don't know? sniping medivacs while they carry the tanks or something, the match up would improve greatly. That's why I think the idea of disabling boost while carrying sieged tanks is a decent idea, although I know it's far from perfect and has some big flaws.
To sum up, I was a huge fan of TvT and that's the one of the reasosn why I played T as my main race in HotS, and that's probably why we don't have the same opinion on the matter.
Maybe I'm the one being wrong and TvT is indeed great in LotV but for the moment I'm more focused on refreshing my queen inject and creep spread mechanics cause ZvZ is the new TvT to me (if this makes any sense..)
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I haven't been following, but what happened with buffing the tank and removing tankivac?
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On March 15 2016 10:21 cheekymonkey wrote:
I haven't been following, but what happened with buffing the tank and removing tankivac?
It has been kind of abandoned, see this post for more details
The thing is we had nothing new on the subject of tankivac play in TvT, that's why I tried to bring it back on the debate.
I just watched Maru vs INno from yesterday's SPL, and I'm even more convinced tankivac play has to change somehow cause having this 2 genius playing such an unidimensional, and let's face it, boring, game and having Rogue and Impact playing an incredibly rich ZvZ right afterward, is heartbreaking to all TvT lovers.
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david kim would have to nerf ZERG in order to nerf PYLONCANNON in order to buff MECH
because z pushes are too powerful if protoss doesnt have pyloncannon, they have to keep the tankivac
in order to nerf BIO tankivac so that you can no longer pickup tanks in siege mode, you have to nerf ZERG so that you can nerf PROTOSS so that you can nerf tankivac
because protoss would butcher terran if we dont have tankivac
and zerg would butcher protoss if they didnt have pyloncannon
so nerf zerg, to nerf pyloncannon, and nerf tankivac with it
this is the ONLY way to remove tankivac.
this empowers gateway units for protoss in both pvz and pvt while denying bio the tankivac which kills ALL POSITIONAL PLAY while also fixing pyloncannonrushes against terran and it balances the z lategame which is insanely broken right now.
david kim is literally fabricating an artificial situation where he gets to make zerg overpowered, and he is doing it deliberately to keep terrans focused on protoss, while the real reason he cant nerf protoss is because zerg is so strong
so i say move ravagers and drop tech to lair tech, and nerf pyloncannon range to 6 so it can only defend against zealots/lings EARLYGAME but phases out in mid to lategame.
if you didnt NEED tankivacs (remove ravager earlygame) you have NO reason to defend its existance, this unit creates a problem david kim is abusing to justify keeping z OP, just look at the derps in lowleague who "need" the tankivac to deal with ravagers, its very convenient for david kim.
remove the need, remove the unit.
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United Kingdom20335 Posts
because protoss would butcher terran if we dont have tankivac
tankivac is not even central to TvP right now. It's used fairly often but many games go completely fine without it
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My purposed terran changes.
Thor air attack removed, cheaper.
Liberator air attack nerfed to 5x2
Goliath introduced, cyclone removed.
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On March 15 2016 21:56 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2016 10:21 cheekymonkey wrote:
I haven't been following, but what happened with buffing the tank and removing tankivac? It has been kind of abandoned, see this post for more detailsThe thing is we had nothing new on the subject of tankivac play in TvT, that's why I tried to bring it back on the debate. I just watched Maru vs INno from yesterday's SPL, and I'm even more convinced tankivac play has to change somehow cause having this 2 genius playing such an unidimensional, and let's face it, boring, game and having Rogue and Impact playing an incredibly rich ZvZ right afterward, is heartbreaking to all TvT lovers.
I'm not convinced that removing the tankivac is the solution that makes TvT super-awesome over night, but it's probably one of the biggest factors that contributes to the current tank/marine headbutting.
It's really uninspiring to watch or play TvT right now, when it's just two players trying to drop their full army onto a half of the opponent's army.
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It's really uninspiring to watch or play TvT right now, when it's just two players trying to drop their full army onto a half of the opponent's army.
This, or on top of production buildings.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 16 2016 04:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2016 21:56 Gwavajuice wrote:On March 15 2016 10:21 cheekymonkey wrote:
I haven't been following, but what happened with buffing the tank and removing tankivac? It has been kind of abandoned, see this post for more detailsThe thing is we had nothing new on the subject of tankivac play in TvT, that's why I tried to bring it back on the debate. I just watched Maru vs INno from yesterday's SPL, and I'm even more convinced tankivac play has to change somehow cause having this 2 genius playing such an unidimensional, and let's face it, boring, game and having Rogue and Impact playing an incredibly rich ZvZ right afterward, is heartbreaking to all TvT lovers. I'm not convinced that removing the tankivac is the solution that makes TvT super-awesome over night, but it's probably one of the biggest factors that contributes to the current tank/marine headbutting. It's really uninspiring to watch or play TvT right now, when it's just two players trying to drop their full army onto a half of the opponent's army.
I wouldn't stop there, remove boost and any change connected to it(muta, phoenixes). I would also slower the Oracle, not to the level of prebuff, but maybe somewhere in between. (slowing WP if needed)
I think that the speed buff received too many units in different forms.
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If you look back at WOL, any strong harass was counterbalanced with obvious flaws.
- you could easily catch a medivac full of marines
- to damage mutalisks was a big deal : if you got hit by a thor shot, you'd have to be much more carefull with your mutas because they didn't regen like deadpool
- phenixes were a good exemple of uncatchable harass that was weakened by design : energy that limited worker kills
When you look at LOTV... There's so many harass options that you can only defend but not really shut down. You can't really shut down an oracle if the opponents doesn't make mistakes, and its energy limitation only means it'll kill a single mineral line (rofl). If you don't go for air, P and Z can end up with mineral lines shut down by liberators. Speedblinkprism + disruptors, DTs or adepts, are virtually uncatachable with T. Same thing with boosted medivacs.
I actually think that hyper mobile/hyper strong/hyper uncatachable harass favorises turtle play. If you go for a comp that doesn't rely on heavy harass, you're forced into turtle, because you can't move out without locking down your entire side of the map, in fear of loosing all of your workers.
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On March 17 2016 00:06 JackONeill wrote:
If you look back at WOL, any strong harass was counterbalanced with obvious flaws.
- you could easily catch a medivac full of marines
- to damage mutalisks was a big deal : if you got hit by a thor shot, you'd have to be much more carefull with your mutas because they didn't regen like deadpool
- phenixes were a good exemple of uncatchable harass that was weakened by design : energy that limited worker kills
When you look at LOTV... There's so many harass options that you can only defend but not really shut down. You can't really shut down an oracle if the opponents doesn't make mistakes, and its energy limitation only means it'll kill a single mineral line (rofl). If you don't go for air, P and Z can end up with mineral lines shut down by liberators. Speedblinkprism + disruptors, DTs or adepts, are virtually uncatachable with T. Same thing with boosted medivacs.
I actually think that hyper mobile/hyper strong/hyper uncatachable harass favorises turtle play. If you go for a comp that doesn't rely on heavy harass, you're forced into turtle, because you can't move out without locking down your entire side of the map, in fear of loosing all of your workers.
Yeah, but the point why blizzard buffed harass on all fronts is that every race can go for harass-heavy play and at the current state other playstyles are relatively bad, so you end up with hardly any turtleplay. What they do works, unless you insist on playing arbitrary unit compositions that you think should work, but actually do not.
But yeah, I wish it wasn't so. Harass, like any other play, should be subject to basic strategic rules, like being able to get shut down so that you have to seek an advantage elsewhere.
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Maps, obviously, are just as integral to gameplay as units.
I wonder if a new neutral element would actually 'fix' many issues
by itself.
What about most mineral patches ungrown at start of game (except for, say,
main and natural, of course), however as game goes on mineral patch areas begin
to grow in a nicely random and realistic way as the game progresses?
This would allow for an opportunity to reshape map design. Specifically, regarding unit movement.
Right now, all ground units can go anywhere; massive units can even move behind the mineral lines.
There's no disadvantage to the Ultralisk? Not very interesting.
It would seem more fair if Light Units sometimes had some advantages in their size.
I think that players would enjoy more elements in the maps.
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how to fix this broken game:
-step one ==> REMOVE THE BULLSHIT
· remove liberator and cyclone.
· remove swarmhost and ravager.
· remove tempest and disruptor.
keep all the "wings of liberty" units + widow mine, hellbat, oracle, mothership core, adept, viper and lurker.
-step two ==> BALANCE THE GAME AFTER THAT
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For the past 3-5 years I have really enjoyed watching Nathanias, Avilo and Ruff play Terran on twitch. In the past three weeks I have logged on to each of their stream on multiple occasions to either see a lot of off-racing, or instead listen to their views on bad game design while they play Terran - which I agree with them).
I think they agree that balance seems to be ok but I think they also see some very significant design/gameplay issues. And you know what, even if they are wrong, its clear they are not enjoying playing Terran as much as in HOTS and that is an issue on its own.
I am also noticing Twitch viewership decline considerably in the past three weeks. I am concerned.
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On March 25 2016 01:55 PressureSC2 wrote:
For the past 3-5 years I have really enjoyed watching Nathanias, Avilo and Ruff play Terran on twitch. In the past three weeks I have logged on to each of their stream on multiple occasions to either see a lot of off-racing, or instead listen to their views on bad game design while they play Terran - which I agree with them).
I think they agree that balance seems to be ok but I think they also see some very significant design/gameplay issues. And you know what, even if they are wrong, its clear they are not enjoying playing Terran as much as in HOTS and that is an issue on its own.
I am also noticing Twitch viewership decline considerably in the past three weeks. I am concerned.
Honestly, I feel like so much of this is the result of the map pool. LotV brought in a lot of cheeky mechanics that are hard to deal with, and encouraged a lot of cheesy plays itself. This combined with the massive balance changes that came with it, the game is volatile- there was no way around that.
They we stuck players on maps where they couldn't play safe, relax, and figure out how the game plays. We're still in an early development phase 5 months after launch, and that's really frustrating. I imagine 1 season of safe, standard maps gives everyone enough time to get comfortable with the game- and we'll see all around improved attitudes towards the game. Otherwise, we have a long road ahead of us.
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EPT
