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Community Feedback Update - March 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
214 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 19:08:47
March 11 2016 18:56 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Posted by Dayvie


Map Updates


We saw good discussion around maps this week, and wanted to remind you that new maps will be coming in towards the end of this month.

Map diversity is our main goal for 1v1 maps, and we’re on the lookout for potential balance issues that may come up as we pursue that goal. This doesn’t mean that we should just jump at any new strategy that initially looks overpowered—new strategies almost always looks overpowered at first and oftentimes turn out fine once players learn to deal with it. Instead, we should be doing our best to figure out new strategies and counters to those new strategies, but if there are real balance issues we need to work hard towards addressing them as soon as possible.

The 1v1 map cuts will be the three oldest maps in the current pool and Central Protocol.

For map adds, we pushed the direction that we discussed last week, and we’d like to thank everyone for providing feedback to our map design team so that they’ll have a strong direction for Season 2.

- We’re planning to replace Central Protocol with a map with a similar idea and better execution: (4)Invader.
- The second map will allow players to break down Rock Towers in order to block off all possible ground paths to your base and three additional expansions. We want to see if we can get some island-like scenarios without the problems of island maps.
- The third map will feature a small ramp leading down from the base to a long, thin ground path as the main, central avenue of attack. Players can use buildings and/or units to more easily defend this choke point. Moving defensive locations away from the base and making use of the terrain have the potential to create cool games.
- The fourth map is (8)Korhal Carnage Knockout. There are many places, depending on the flow of expansions, where players will really need to strategize around when to break Rocks and Rock Towers both on the offense and defense.



We would also like to acknowledge the mapmaker, Sidian. When we look at his maps, even the ones that aren’t used on the ladder, we really admire his work. We know how difficult it is to be creative while still thinking about game balance when making maps, and Sidian is a solid example of someone who clearly tries his best on both fronts.

We know it’s not as difficult to just pump out the same types of maps on different tilesets, but it’s just awesome seeing many mapmakers out there pushing the limits for the better of the game.

Map Diversity and Map Balance
First, we would like to thank the casters in SSL and Proleague for pointing out how new maps in Legacy of the Void, such as Ulrena, are creating much more interesting games and scenarios than maps of the same type. We completely agree, and believe map diversity makes the playing and spectating experiences better.

With that said, because we are pushing map diversity much harder in Legacy of the Void, the chances of there being balance issues on specific maps may be higher. Unlike balance changes to the game, we can definitely have a much quicker turnaround on map balance changes.


Map Data
Please keep in mind that although data contributes towards the big picture, it doesn’t say everything about the situation and is not the absolute source from which we draw conclusions. That’s why we approach gauging the state of the game by looking into many factors such as ladder data, community feedback, pro feedback, current meta game on the ladder/tournaments, tournament results, checking past experiences, and so on.

With that said, since the map changes to the current pool last time, we’re seeing that every map in every matchup at all skill levels using our adjusted ratings is off by plus or minus 5%. Adjusted ratings are win/loss percentages that are measured with the players’ skill factored out on the ladder, so that we can more accurately gauge the state of each race. The general gauge suggested by our stats/math people for adjusted ratings is that plus or minus 5% is just normal data fluctuating, and over plus or minus 10% means there could be an issue.

To reiterate, we’re not saying the balance is perfect—we just want to point this out due to how we’re seeing clear improvements on the data side since the last changes. So congrats on the great suggestions!

Let’s continue to focus on other points other than data to really zero in on potential balance issues and discuss solutions to the issues so that we can make the best changes we can on a map by map basis. Data alone can’t paint the best clear big picture, and we have to spend efforts across all fronts to make the least biased decision.

Balance

Please share your thoughts on the topics we’re discussing this week:

Ravager

Cooldown nerf looks to be the strongest in this area. For example, if we go from 10 seconds to 14 seconds on the ability, that’s a big DPS nerf on the ability damage.

We definitely want to nerf either Ravager timings or Overlord drops in PvZ, due to strategy diversity on the Protoss side. But we don’t need a simultaneous double nerf.



Overlord Tier 1 Drops

We saw the strong points many of you brought up in terms of not nerfing Ravagers, and focusing more so on Overlord drops as the first pass.

If we were to go this route, we believe moving the requirement from Evolution Chamber to Lair would be the most reasonable, and although this is a huge nerf, we can definitely test this out due to the early game PvZ issue looking pretty clear at this point.

Let’s discuss whether we should test a Ravager or Overlord tier 1 drop nerf first, because we’d like to test something as soon as possible on the balance test map so that we can patch to the live game.


Cyclone

We believe the suggestion of increasing health but also increasing the supply cost is good to make sure that we buff them for the early/mid game, while making it about the same in the late game.

We also believe due to the cost of this unit, this could potentially be a safe change that doesn’t give outright advantage to Terran as a whole.

Because Terran is at a powerful state right now, we definitely don’t want to only do straight-up buffs.


Banshee

After going over the feedback and having more discussions around it, we wonder if we can take away the strength of Liberators somewhat, and make the Banshee movement speed upgrade lower in tier, such as no requirement or Armory requirement.

This is the same logic as the above; we can’t just straight-up buff Terran when they are already performing strongly at the moment.

If we were to nerf the range and upgraded range of Liberators against ground, we can maybe bring the Banshee speed upgrade requirement down much lower, so that there can be a bit of decision making and choice with these two units depending on the situation.


AA from the Factory


We are currently exploring your feedback of potentially bringing in a generally solid AA option on the Factory to allow for a reliable ground based AA solution.

We can definitely explore this angle with the Cyclone (if we don’t go the route proposed above), but Thor is definitely another area we can go.

For example, because splash AA is covered pretty well by Widow Mines, one potential route we can go is more of a single-target, flat damage option on the Thor.

Let’s discuss so that we can start exploring this front soon.


Discussions Around Mech

Thanks for many great discussions around this topic. After going through the feedback, our current thought is to focus more on individual mech units first, and diversifying that. As we explore changes in this area, we’ll be able to identify what type of strategies and unit compositions show potential, so we can go from there. The question as to whether bio and mech should be completely split or always mixed will naturally be answered better as we explore individual design improvements.


Next Week
We won’t have an update next week, because some of our team members will be at GDC. However, we will still be exploring the exact changes that we need to test for the next balance test map. So please continue contributing to the proposed changes to the next balance test map so that we can continue making StarCraft II the best game it can be.

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I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 19:05:03
March 11 2016 19:01 GMT
#2
INVADER HYPE

Also, are they considering just basic tech-lab starport access to banshee speed? ROFL THAT WOULD BE SICK
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
March 11 2016 19:04 GMT
#3
(8)KorhalCarnageKnockout


I'm sorry, 8? That's nuts

The map thread for those interested
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55581 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 19:07:33
March 11 2016 19:06 GMT
#4
Regarding the banshee vs liberator situation: the liberator still deals more damage and can be reactored, which makes it flatly better than banshees, even with less range, in many situations, if not almost all. It just becomes weaker in harassment.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
CheddarToss
Profile Joined September 2015
534 Posts
March 11 2016 19:12 GMT
#5
Too much focus on Terran/Mech, not enough on PvZ. Regarding the latter, I'm for testing nerfing Overlord drops first. Without that constant threat, maybe Protoss can play more greedy, which could make the race as strong as Zerg in the later stages of the game.
Weavel
Profile Joined January 2010
Finland9223 Posts
March 11 2016 19:13 GMT
#6
"The 1v1 map cuts will be the three oldest maps in the current pool and Central Protocol."

So which are the 3 oldest maps?
Life/Seed//Mvp/NaNiwa fighting! ZeNEX forever!
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
March 11 2016 19:16 GMT
#7
We're getting Korhal Carnage Lockout on ladder O_O.
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
March 11 2016 19:16 GMT
#8
Think this is the third map? https://ktvmaps.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/ktv-eris/
Cereal
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
573 Posts
March 11 2016 19:17 GMT
#9
On March 12 2016 04:06 Elentos wrote:
Regarding the banshee vs liberator situation: the liberator still deals more damage and can be reactored, which makes it flatly better than banshees, even with less range, in many situations, if not almost all. It just becomes weaker in harassment.


Every time I've seen speed banshees they seem incredibly strong. The cost-effectiveness a good player can squeeze out of them is insane. I wouldn't underestimate the potential of this change.
Edowyth
Profile Joined October 2010
United States183 Posts
March 11 2016 19:17 GMT
#10
Let’s discuss whether we should test a Ravager or Overlord tier 1 drop nerf first, because we’d like to test something as soon as possible on the balance test map so that we can patch to the live game.


Rather than nerfing interesting Zerg aggressive options (which aren't a problem in TvZ or ZvZ), I'd much prefer a change to Protoss' capability to open a few gateways to be safe, then transition well into the mid-game.

If you just nerf Zerg, Protoss will still be stuck with only one safe macro-build in PvZ. Why not address this issue directly?
"Q. How do I check a valid [e-]mail address? A. You can't, at least, not in real time. Bummer, eh?" /r/programming
Of course, you could just send them a validation email.
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
March 11 2016 19:19 GMT
#11
So what is going on with the tank, are they buffing the damage or not?
breaker1328
Profile Joined March 2016
Canada300 Posts
March 11 2016 19:23 GMT
#12
On March 12 2016 04:04 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Show nested quote +
(8)KorhalCarnageKnockout


I'm sorry, 8? That's nuts

The map thread for those interested


Thanks for the link for the map info.

I was a little wary of the idea of having an 8 player map on ladder but that map actually looks pretty damn cool.
usopsama
Profile Joined April 2008
6502 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 19:27:56
March 11 2016 19:25 GMT
#13
If anything, preventing terrans from building two liberators at a time from the reactor is a logical and needed nerf.
breaker1328
Profile Joined March 2016
Canada300 Posts
March 11 2016 19:26 GMT
#14
On March 12 2016 04:13 Weavel wrote:
"The 1v1 map cuts will be the three oldest maps in the current pool and Central Protocol."

So which are the 3 oldest maps?


Lerilak Crest, Ruins of Seras, and I wanna say Orbital Shipyard but I'm not 100% on that.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3505 Posts
March 11 2016 19:42 GMT
#15
What if they switched Banshee & Liberators, Liberator needs Tech Lab and Banshee doesn't, then tweak build times accordingly?
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
sashkata
Profile Joined September 2008
Bulgaria3241 Posts
March 11 2016 19:43 GMT
#16
What's up with all this focus on the cyclone? Yes, it's use is limited, but It's not useless. Not all units need to be used equally. It's still a good tool for terran in certain situations. It's fine as it is.
PressureSC2
Profile Joined January 2016
122 Posts
March 11 2016 19:47 GMT
#17
This all sounds fantastic Blizzard, but I am just going to repeat what top streamers and strongest link to the community are saying:

- enough talk, just DO IT. You know exactly what you need to do.

Factory units change test map. Take your time to get it right but DO IT.
redloser
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1750 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 19:55:21
March 11 2016 19:54 GMT
#18
An 8 player map on 1v1 ladder? I even hated the randomness of 4 player maps.

Also watching GSL nowadays got me to believe that ZvP is quite balanced, so I hope they don't change much with the balance updates.
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
March 11 2016 20:02 GMT
#19
On March 12 2016 04:43 sashkata wrote:
What's up with all this focus on the cyclone? Yes, it's use is limited, but It's not useless. Not all units need to be used equally. It's still a good tool for terran in certain situations. It's fine as it is.


I think they are very unhappy that a brand new unit in the expansion has a very close nitche live.

For maps:

I was always very vocal to get rid of the maps. And I am happy that this is finally happening.
On the other side, they only showed us 2 of the 4 maps. I hope they will show us the new maps way before they introduce them, because else we again couldnt fing the potential flaws of the maps. And to be honest, Blizzards Team has shown that they have hard times to find the flaws on maps by their own.

Balance: I agree, Ling Drop nerf should work without destroying any game, but giving protoss a bit more air to breath. If they would patch again (and not wait 8 month) later when the drop nerf wouldnt help enough or not at all, they can figure out another thing.
I cant agree about playing with terran stats or upgrades. If you want to nerf the liberator, just do it. Terran is strong enough to compensate that without any buff for another unit. Especially when it is such a useless upgrade like banshee speed.
Cyclone: Does it really need more health? Is the AI actually fixed, that they dont move into 5 range when they use lock on (without manual move command)?
Mech: Please no!

Balance stats:

I cant understand how they find 5% acceptable. Do they mean 47,5%-52,5% ? That could be okay. But if they mean 45%-55% is not okay at all. If thats their way of balance, I know what made 8 month of Brofestor possible.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
March 11 2016 20:03 GMT
#20
No idea why Liberators don't require tech-lab.

Also I don't see how the thor could be a solid AA option, since it's so expensive and immobile.
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