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Fostering a Positive Atmosphere
It’s awesome how we’re all working towards having a more positive atmosphere towards StarCraft II on various sites and forums. We’re encouraged by the results of our collaboration with all the dedicated players out there who contribute to the StarCraft community on a daily basis. Thanks to you, we’re able to make the game better through weekly updates, balance test maps, and our constructive discussions. A healthy and positive community is vital to our game, especially when it comes to attracting new players and making them feel welcome. Let’s continue to focus on constructive feedback and work towards our goal of continually improving StarCraft II.
We’d also like to congratulate everyone on the great job you’ve been doing as we continue to iterate and make the design of StarCraft II that much better. You’re also creating a much better environment for newer people to participate in a constructive way. Thank you!
KR Pro Feedback
We recently received feedback from all the professional teams in Korea regarding the current balance test map. Let’s run through what they thought.
The pros didn’t like the Siege Tank damage increase or disabling pickup, saying that Siege Tanks weren’t viable after these changes. The vibe we got was that Siege Tanks don’t need a damage increase—without mobility, they won’t be an effective tool, even if they hit much harder. We still believe that there could be a scenario where the damage is increased enough to offset the mobility loss. However, the more important question here is not about if the damage buff is stronger or the Medivac pickup is stronger. Instead, we should be more focused on the loss of micro and strategic potential versus the gain of the Siege Tank fulfilling their fantasy better by having clear strengths and weaknesses.
Regarding the Ravager change, the main feedback was that Ravagers are primarily used to counter Liberators and Widow Mines, so if a nerf is needed, then their ability cooldown should be increased instead. Our stance on this one is that the type of change we implement really depends on the issue we’re trying to solve. The damage nerf was suggested to help with not just the Siege Tank change, but also in case Ravager timing pushes are too strong versus Protoss. If either of these scenarios have changed, we would definitely need a different solution.
We also received feedback that players are still testing and figuring out our most recent changes, so it would be best if the next balance patch doesn’t happen until we are sure that the issues being addressed are real and the changes are tested. We agree; while things like Ravager timing attacks looked very strong and Protoss looked to be struggling when the last patch hit, Protoss players are still figuring out how to play in this new patch and we’re still figuring out the current state of the game.
Siege Tank Change
Let’s go into more detail about the Siege Tank change.
We agree with many people out there who disagree with the changes:
Siege Tank pickup micro is definitely really cool.
We see Terran players fielding a good mix of Bio and Mech units—do we really have to split those two strategies again?
We definitely understand this stance. Perhaps Terran is more fun to play with and watch if there’s always a mix of the two like we’re currently seeing, and maybe we don’t need them to be completely split.
Do we really need to mix strategies up at this time due to other factors such as resource changes, the push we’re making towards map diversity, games just having a lot more action in Legacy of the Void, and so on?
Our stance here is that we should have some changes tested and ready in case we get to this type of spot, so that we can react more quickly if necessary.
We also are seeing many people bring up good reasons for going through with the changes:
The fantasy of the Siege Tank has diminished due to how mobile the unit is now.
The changes would bring back the “lock down this location at the cost of mobility” vibe.
The current test map will test how cool it would be to bring this back.
Internally, we’re wondering if there’s a way to hit the positives of both sides. For example, if we further increased the time before the Siege Tank can fire, we may be able to get the effect we’re looking for. What if the time it takes to go into siege mode and fire once is equal to the time it takes before a Siege Tank can fire once it’s dropped off by the Medivac while in Siege Mode? While we may not need to go this extreme, this example shows the direction we've recently been considering.
We also agree that this isn’t a change that needs to be implemented immediately. Therefore, we should take our time to carefully evaluate different options before making a final decision.
The State of Protoss
Contrary to right after the last patch hit, Protoss didn’t look to be struggling as much. However, we are definitely seeing the strength of early game aggression in ZvP. We will be testing some nerfs on the Zerg early game timing attack so that we can be prepared to make the change if the situation doesn’t improve over time due to players figuring out how to counter these attacks better.
Next Balance Test Map
On the next balance test map, we’re looking to swap out the Ravager and Liberator changes, potentially trying out a different change to the Ravager that only really affects ZvP, and try out a version of the Siege Tank where we heavily increase the delay before Siege Tanks can fire after being dropped off by the Medivac while in Siege Mode. We would obviously want to combo this with more of a damage buff than what we have currently.
We agree with those of you who have pointed out that testing some changes to the Cyclone would be useful. The goal here would be to increase the effectiveness of the Cyclone for early/mid stages of the game while not allowing mass Cyclones to be a viable composition in the later stages of the game. In order to do this, we’re thinking about increasing the effectiveness of Cyclones by either increasing their health or damage, and also increasing the supply cost so that their value diminishes in the late stage of the game when players’ armies start to approach max supply.
If there are other balance issues that we should be testing, please get a conversation started this week so that we can decide together what the best move will be for the next balance test map. Our hope is to evaluate this week and next week, and be in a spot where we can make a decision and release the next balance test map the week after next.
Thanks again for continuing to support and contribute to the future of StarCraft II. Although there are currently no immediate, glaring issues, let’s continue doing what we can during this time so that we can be prepared for the future.
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Middle compromise that I haven't seen suggested:
- unsieges upon pickup
- normal unload/drop leaves it in tank mode
- extra button to unload/drop it where it auto transforms to siege mode
This is in line with what Blizzard has been testing with increased delay but also gives a choice to the player. In addition, it gives a visual indicator to all players of when the sieged tank can fire.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
So what was the verdict on the liberator changes?
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One time he has agood idea and one week later he's already reverting back on those changes.
Can't describe how disappointed I am, tvt is pure cancer right now and a long delay on tanks won't fix that.
Also the poll showed clearly that the vast majority wants the tank drop gone.
Edit: maybe I was to fast with my criticism because DK stated he's willing to buff tanks even further but I really don't think medivacs should be able to pick up tanks at all.
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The problem with Siege Tanks without Medivac pickup is a lack of mobility that allows them to be countered so easily by certain spells. In BW, Tanks worked because the Viper didn't exist.
Changing/removing those spells (Abduct/Blinding Cloud), would go a long way in making Tanks viable again versus Zerg. They need a significant buff to shield damage versus Protoss.
On February 27 2016 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:
One time he has agood idea and one week later he's already reverting back on those changes.
Can't describe how disappointed I am, tvt is pure cancer right now and a long delay on tanks won't fix that.
Also the poll showed clearly that the vast majority wants the tank drop gone.
David Kim has kindly asked us all to not to harshly criticize his ideas because it demotivates him and the team. And we don't want to hurt anyones feelings.
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20419654373
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Sorry but it sounds like they are saying a lot and doing very little.
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Ultras..
They are glitched, my marines do not deal damage to them!
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We would obviously want to combo this with more of a damage buff than we have cuttently
I really don't think tanks need even more damage especially not for tvt.
The biggest issue with mech play are vipers in tvz and tempests in tvp.
A further tank buff won't really help against those two units but would make them overpowered against everything else.
So maybe adress blinding cloud by reducing the range of affected units by 5 or 6 so tanks don't get nullified by it and nerf tempests which are currently problematic in every matchup.
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Also what happened to the thor buff, that would have really helped with mech viability
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On February 27 2016 04:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +We would obviously want to combo this with more of a damage buff than we have cuttently I really don't think tanks need even more damage especially not for tvt. The biggest issue with mech play are vipers in tvz and tempests in tvp. A further tank buff won't really help against those two units but would make them overpowered against everything else. So maybe adress blinding cloud by reducing the range of affected units by 5 or 6 so tanks don't get nullified by it and nerf tempests which are currently problematic in every matchup.
GSL showed it pretty well this morning, libs just shred everything and toss's only answer is the worst dps/cost unit in the game that's saving grace is that it outranges it. I think a slight increase to the time for the dropped tank to fire vs removing the mechanic. Make it 3-4 seconds so that in TvT positioning matters and for TvZ, they have a chance of repositioning their army/drones during drop/pickup play
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It's kind of funny they want to change tanks to influence TvT, by doing so fuck-up TvZ and want to change that with a ravager fix that might screw ZvP.
Also the fact that they literally said: PRO's think this is bad, we disagree so fuck you, that's why
I'll just hope they listen and let tank pick-up stay or at least come up with a good solution.
I can't complain too much about LotV so far but i am only watching and not playing. So i get why people have complaints.
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On February 27 2016 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:
One time he has agood idea and one week later he's already reverting back on those changes.
Can't describe how disappointed I am, tvt is pure cancer right now and a long delay on tanks won't fix that.
Also the poll showed clearly that the vast majority wants the tank drop gone.
Edit: maybe I was to fast with my criticism because DK stated he's willing to buff tanks even further but I really don't think medivacs should be able to pick up tanks at all.
I really hope they remove the flying tanks, but from what I am reading in comments I am not seeing a majority wanting the tankavacs removed. Feels it really is about split, half the comments I read want it gone (I do to), the other half want it to stay.
I think it's going to stay unfortunately, I don't see Blizzard changing that at all. Flying tanks with a damage buff sounds wrong to me to xD.
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On February 27 2016 04:11 90ti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 04:00 Charoisaur wrote:We would obviously want to combo this with more of a damage buff than we have cuttently I really don't think tanks need even more damage especially not for tvt. The biggest issue with mech play are vipers in tvz and tempests in tvp. A further tank buff won't really help against those two units but would make them overpowered against everything else. So maybe adress blinding cloud by reducing the range of affected units by 5 or 6 so tanks don't get nullified by it and nerf tempests which are currently problematic in every matchup. GSL showed it pretty well this morning, libs just shred everything and toss's only answer is the worst dps/cost unit in the game that's saving grace is that it outranges it. I think a slight increase to the time for the dropped tank to fire vs removing the mechanic. Make it 3-4 seconds so that in TvT positioning matters and for TvZ, they have a chance of repositioning their army/drones during drop/pickup play
If tempests get nerfed, libs can be nerfed too.
It's bad design anyway that an air unit can only be countered with other air units.
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On February 27 2016 04:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:
One time he has agood idea and one week later he's already reverting back on those changes.
Can't describe how disappointed I am, tvt is pure cancer right now and a long delay on tanks won't fix that.
Also the poll showed clearly that the vast majority wants the tank drop gone.
Edit: maybe I was to fast with my criticism because DK stated he's willing to buff tanks even further but I really don't think medivacs should be able to pick up tanks at all. I really hope they remove the flying tanks, but from what I am reading in comments I am not seeing a majority wanting the tankavacs removed. Feels it really is about split, half the comments I read want it gone (I do to), the other half want it to stay. I think it's going to stay unfortunately, I don't see Blizzard changing that at all. Flying tanks with a damage buff sounds wrong to me to xD.
the TL poll had 63% wanting the tank pickup to be removed 7% were undecided and only 30% wanted it to stay so it's not really split.
also keep in mind that 2/3 of the feedback comes from people who don't experience the real reason why tankivacs are bad: TvT
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I am very disappointed in this update.
A large majority of the player want to remove the tankivac and increase tank damage. Tankivacs have completely destroyed TvT and made what once was the most beautiful machup completely one dimensional.
Do let a few Korean pro players destroy the game. Blizzard first priority should be that the game is fun and varied to play, not what the pro players think.
League of Legends is popular because the priority is the players and making the game fun and varied, the e-sport scene is consequence of the game being popular, not the other way around. Blizzard should learn from this, there is no shame in copying what works, it is only smart.
I think the whole reason for this games decline is that Blizzard worries too much about e-sport instead of prioritising making the actual game fun and varied, making it is possible to use multiple compositions in every match ups.
Protoss and Zerg have lots of different viable combos. Terran has only marine/tankivac.
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On February 27 2016 04:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 04:14 blade55555 wrote:On February 27 2016 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:
One time he has agood idea and one week later he's already reverting back on those changes.
Can't describe how disappointed I am, tvt is pure cancer right now and a long delay on tanks won't fix that.
Also the poll showed clearly that the vast majority wants the tank drop gone.
Edit: maybe I was to fast with my criticism because DK stated he's willing to buff tanks even further but I really don't think medivacs should be able to pick up tanks at all. I really hope they remove the flying tanks, but from what I am reading in comments I am not seeing a majority wanting the tankavacs removed. Feels it really is about split, half the comments I read want it gone (I do to), the other half want it to stay. I think it's going to stay unfortunately, I don't see Blizzard changing that at all. Flying tanks with a damage buff sounds wrong to me to xD. the TL poll had 63% wanting the tank pickup to be removed 7% were undecided and only 30% wanted it to stay so it's not really split. also keep in mind that 2/3 of the feedback comes from people who don't experience the real reason why tankivacs are bad: TvT
A TL poll still isn't every player, that's only the people that go to TL. Reddit for example seems to favor keeping tankivacs more it feels like. Dunno to me it seems really split, I would need more then 1 poll for me to think it wasn't just from reading all the threads regarding the change.
You are correct on that part that 2/3 of the feedback don't know about TvT, thing is I don't think Blizzard is going to care about that fact.
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On February 27 2016 04:13 BlackCompany wrote:
It's kind of funny they want to change tanks to influence TvT, by doing so fuck-up TvZ and want to change that with a ravager fix that might screw ZvP.
Also the fact that they literally said: PRO's think this is bad, we disagree so fuck you, that's why
I'll just hope they listen and let tank pick-up stay or at least come up with a good solution.
I can't complain too much about LotV so far but i am only watching and not playing. So i get why people have complaints.
Honnestly the nerf they're proposing now only really affects TvT, that's perfect. And I'm glad they're not listening to all those for want to build 2 turrets per tank in order to have "cool mech games".
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On February 27 2016 03:54 GGzerG wrote:
Sorry but it sounds like they are saying a lot and doing very little.
People asked for more updates, wish granted.
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Remove siege tank pick up, and give siege tanks +5 range.
Increase cyclone hp to 180, decrease gas cost to 100 and supply count to 2.
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On February 27 2016 04:31 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 04:13 BlackCompany wrote:
It's kind of funny they want to change tanks to influence TvT, by doing so fuck-up TvZ and want to change that with a ravager fix that might screw ZvP.
Also the fact that they literally said: PRO's think this is bad, we disagree so fuck you, that's why
I'll just hope they listen and let tank pick-up stay or at least come up with a good solution.
I can't complain too much about LotV so far but i am only watching and not playing. So i get why people have complaints. Honnestly the nerf they're proposing now only really affects TvT, that's perfect. And I'm glad they're not listening to all those for want to build 2 turrets per tank in order to have "cool mech games".
Ya i can agree to that, changing time to fire after dropping seems like a decent idea instead of just removing pick-up.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
