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On February 27 2016 22:44 PressureSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 14:32 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these? Because they are not units that have been strategically converted to a static defense structure. You see the problem with spore and spine crawler design if suddenly you could overlord drop them pre-burrowed? It would become the only strategy we would spectate because nothing would hold a candle to it.
Imagine Warp Prisms being able to drop Cannons.
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Imagine Warp Prisms being able to drop Cannons.[/QUOTE]
There you go. Great design until canons must be nerfed and why not just remove them from the game eventually because nobody will build them unless to drop them.
Depressing to think about it really. What's next remove viking flight mode, because they look badass as robots?
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I'm a Protoss player and Tempest with only 4 supply never made sense (and that's the true reason they're massable)
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On February 27 2016 22:50 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 22:44 PressureSC2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:32 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these? Because they are not units that have been strategically converted to a static defense structure. You see the problem with spore and spine crawler design if suddenly you could overlord drop them pre-burrowed? It would become the only strategy we would spectate because nothing would hold a candle to it. Imagine Warp Prisms being able to drop Cannons.
its not like queens move fast off creep they are supposed to be a defensive unit yet you can drop queens. same principle with disruptors, they are supposed to be an immobile unit yet you can pick them up in a warp prism, and i see nobody crying about those designs.
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Yes tempest being 4 supply is crazy imo, while thor is 6 supply and isnt a very good unit
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This is one of the more insightful community feedbacks!
* PvZ Ravager attacks
I think the biggest helper would be to remove building damage from Corrosive Bile. This would make it much easier for Protoss players to expand rapidly and keep up with the pace of Zergs, while not dying to these powerful attacks.
Pretty much it's a battle of getting the Pylons down from the Zergs side, since the Protoss production at that point is just not on par yet.
This could potentially increase variety in the matchup a ton! no longer would Forge Expands be a no brainer moot strategy, Zergs might try to bust greedy Protosses walls with Banelings again.
The downside to this would be that it will affect other matchups as well. Though in ZvZ I'd argue it's a good change, players can rely on Spine Crawlers a bit more and be able to spend less resources on straigth up engagement army value.
The problem with any change that nerfs Corrosive Bile is that it brings the Ravager closer to a Roach and as such removes some coolness of the unit.
* Cyclone
I really like what was said about this unit, as we don't want this to become too spammable. However I think one of it's traits should be that it's versatile that's the feeling I get when I look at the unit. It should be sort of like the Goliath that serves as a pillar to the Factory Tech Tree.
I know it was said in the update that maybe Mech and Bio needn't be seperate styles that are always viable. While I agree with this statement it should also be noted that more variety is always better and pure Mech is, but one of those fantasies. In my opinion what Terran lacks right now is a deeper Tech Tree where you can transition from style to style, Mech->add on Barracks and get Stim, then upgrade both units and then late game go Air, as an example. In Starcraft 2 it's very easy to get to a certain composition and just stay on it, because it's the one that is the most flexible.
Now for a suggestion to the Cyclone. For this unit to be flexible it needs to do a lot more damage to non-Armoured units, if you play with the Cyclone in the unit tester, you will realize that not even 2 Supply Cyclones would ever make it as a staple massable unit in this game, due to it's inability to trade at all with units that are not Armoured.
My idea would be to increase the overall damage to that of it's + vs Armoured damage. Then I would change it's Lock-On, so that the range is put on the ground where the Cyclone is, instead of on the Cyclone itself. Meaning the Cyclone can also leave the range and thus ends the spell. This would be a huge nerf to it's ability to chase, while not affecting it's ability to kite by that much, it would be a severe nerf overall to the ability. Then depending on the strength of the new Cyclone I would also tinker with it's toggle range, as it stands it is so low that the unit is really awkward to control.
* Siegevac
I'm done arguing for the disposal of this and I just hope we end up with the 3 second set up time as was mentioned in the post. This would be the one where Siege Tanks can get the most love and any nerf to Medivacs synergy with Terran is good. You cannot play Terran without Medivacs, heck even Hell Bats are Bio, since apparently Medivacs is the only cool thing about Terran and is therefore being pushed into every area of Terran compositions.
If there are other balance issues that we should be testing, please get a conversation started this week so that we can decide together what the best move will be for the next balance test map
* Disruptor
PvP is definitely the best mirror matchup thanks to this unit. I do think the unit is a bit too strong though, the +55 vs Shields is massive and losing Disruptors to a single shot can be frustrating and it often times boils down to getting the shot off first, since killing the enemy's Disruptor saves your own.
I think to tone down the volatility, while still keeping the come back potential that makes PvP so great, would be to meet on the half way. 160 damage is the magic number, if the unit does not kill Stalkers, it is almost meaningless. I wonder if we can have it be 160 damage to everything, since the only real interaction that changes in the other matchups is the ability to one shot Siege Tanks and Swarm Hosts. Since we've now settled with Siegevacs it could create a really cool interaction between the two units, Siege Tanks wanting to be landed to churn out the damage, while the Disruptors try to get the kill on the Tank, before the Terran then lifts it.
* Tempest
When it gets to the late game, there comes a point where it just goes into complete turtle mode. This is because Tempests are super expensive, cheap on supply and needs heavy support to a point where you cannot be breached, once this happens all excess resources and supplies goes into Tempests. The more the better and it can take quite a while to get there on the new LotV economy.
We haven't seen it much in pro games, but it does happen on the ladder and we should want to avoid another Swarm Host era, where the ladder experience is hampered by this.
So an idea that could combat this would be:
Remove + vs Massive Air and lower it's damage to 15, but add on a DoT that does 25 damage over 2.36 seconds (The Tempests attack speed cooldown.) The DoT would not stack.
This would make it a lot more attractive to get to Tempests, since it's essentially 10 more damage a shot, unless fighting Brood Lords. Getting mass Tempests is however a lot worse, since it's only 15 more damage pr. Tempest, if they attack the same target.
I think it also makes the Tempest a lot more cool as well, it had a DoT ability in the Beta and this makes that ability feel less scrapped 
That will be all.
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Still no talk about liberator in PvT. A unit that can lock down your mineral line and 2 shots stalkers, basically free win if the pylon is not in range. Kk.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
Just want to remind ejozl that BLords received range buff in LotV and blink isn't that powerful as before(not mentioning that certain spell and certain unit shreds stalkers).
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BEST update for ages. save the tankivacs! save the micro potential!
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I think they should buff the siege tank like proposed and still allow it to be picked up by medivacs but make it unload unsieged. This way players will still be able to do some fancy micro to save the tanks agaisn't ravagers but the doom drops with tankivacs will be a lot harder since it will require more time to siege them back when unloaded.
This change would be the best of both world in my opinion and players wanting to showoff tankivacs micro will at least require some skills to unload and siege and it should give more time for the player defending agaisn't it to react.
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On February 28 2016 00:13 ejozl wrote:* Tempest When it gets to the late game, there comes a point where it just goes into complete turtle mode. This is because Tempests are super expensive, cheap on supply and needs heavy support to a point where you cannot be breached, once this happens all excess resources and supplies goes into Tempests. The more the better and it can take quite a while to get there on the new LotV economy. We haven't seen it much in pro games, but it does happen on the ladder and we should want to avoid another Swarm Host era, where the ladder experience is hampered by this. So an idea that could combat this would be: Remove + vs Massive Air and lower it's damage to 15, but add on a DoT that does 25 damage over 2.36 seconds (The Tempests attack speed cooldown.) The DoT would not stack. This would make it a lot more attractive to get to Tempests, since it's essentially 10 more damage a shot, unless fighting Brood Lords. Getting mass Tempests is however a lot worse, since it's only 15 more damage pr. Tempest, if they attack the same target. I think it also makes the Tempest a lot more cool as well, it had a DoT ability in the Beta and this makes that ability feel less scrapped That will be all.
i feel like tempests need to be as strong as they are vs broods right now to keep protoss alive until they have a more well rounded air army with how blink stalkers arent really used anymore & brood got the range increase ; a supply change wouldnt really affect this so if anything change this
i think the bigger problem is how absolutely garbage hydras and corruptors are late game vs void rays / storm / etc and parasitic bomb is extremely unreliable because of feedback and because recall removes parasitic bomb from all your units
corruptors are even weaker vs air than they used to be with the removal of corruption; but if zvp lategame gets some attention (its pretty much unwinnable vs tempest+storm) then protoss needs stronger defence early as it heavily favours zerg
really not fun being forced to do random all ins every game
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On February 28 2016 03:23 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 00:13 ejozl wrote:* Tempest When it gets to the late game, there comes a point where it just goes into complete turtle mode. This is because Tempests are super expensive, cheap on supply and needs heavy support to a point where you cannot be breached, once this happens all excess resources and supplies goes into Tempests. The more the better and it can take quite a while to get there on the new LotV economy. We haven't seen it much in pro games, but it does happen on the ladder and we should want to avoid another Swarm Host era, where the ladder experience is hampered by this. So an idea that could combat this would be: Remove + vs Massive Air and lower it's damage to 15, but add on a DoT that does 25 damage over 2.36 seconds (The Tempests attack speed cooldown.) The DoT would not stack. This would make it a lot more attractive to get to Tempests, since it's essentially 10 more damage a shot, unless fighting Brood Lords. Getting mass Tempests is however a lot worse, since it's only 15 more damage pr. Tempest, if they attack the same target. I think it also makes the Tempest a lot more cool as well, it had a DoT ability in the Beta and this makes that ability feel less scrapped That will be all. i think the bigger problem is how absolutely garbage hydras and corruptors are late game vs void rays / storm / etc and parasitic bomb is extremely unreliable because of feedback and because recall removes parasitic bomb from all your units
Terrans don't have it easier vs tempest + storm (I'd say they have it even harder but I don't have much experience with zerg) so I think the problem is more with protoss endgame than with hydra + corruptor being weak.
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With their current state Tempest should only be able to attack air. This way they would still serve their purpose agaisn't Brood lords/Corruptors and also usable in PvP vs Carriers and Colossus. We would also see more Carriers and Phenix/Oracle mixed in for a fight agaisn't ground instead of pure tempest all the time.
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On February 28 2016 03:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 03:23 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On February 28 2016 00:13 ejozl wrote:* Tempest When it gets to the late game, there comes a point where it just goes into complete turtle mode. This is because Tempests are super expensive, cheap on supply and needs heavy support to a point where you cannot be breached, once this happens all excess resources and supplies goes into Tempests. The more the better and it can take quite a while to get there on the new LotV economy. We haven't seen it much in pro games, but it does happen on the ladder and we should want to avoid another Swarm Host era, where the ladder experience is hampered by this. So an idea that could combat this would be: Remove + vs Massive Air and lower it's damage to 15, but add on a DoT that does 25 damage over 2.36 seconds (The Tempests attack speed cooldown.) The DoT would not stack. This would make it a lot more attractive to get to Tempests, since it's essentially 10 more damage a shot, unless fighting Brood Lords. Getting mass Tempests is however a lot worse, since it's only 15 more damage pr. Tempest, if they attack the same target. I think it also makes the Tempest a lot more cool as well, it had a DoT ability in the Beta and this makes that ability feel less scrapped That will be all. i think the bigger problem is how absolutely garbage hydras and corruptors are late game vs void rays / storm / etc and parasitic bomb is extremely unreliable because of feedback and because recall removes parasitic bomb from all your units Terrans don't have it easier vs tempest + storm (I'd say they have it even harder but I don't have much experience with zerg) so I think the problem is more with protoss endgame than with hydra + corruptor being weak.
Immense synergy between tempest and high templars, but nerfing any of those kill protoss.
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Also, instead of nerfing corrosive bile, they should try putting ravagers armored. This way the tanks and immortals will actually be able to do something agaisn't them...
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On February 28 2016 00:01 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 22:50 CheddarToss wrote:On February 27 2016 22:44 PressureSC2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:32 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these? Because they are not units that have been strategically converted to a static defense structure. You see the problem with spore and spine crawler design if suddenly you could overlord drop them pre-burrowed? It would become the only strategy we would spectate because nothing would hold a candle to it. Imagine Warp Prisms being able to drop Cannons. its not like queens move fast off creep they are supposed to be a defensive unit yet you can drop queens. same principle with disruptors, they are supposed to be an immobile unit yet you can pick them up in a warp prism, and i see nobody crying about those designs.
Yes, the queens are supposed to be defensive, which is the role they fill. They are not a /siege/ unit. They have 5 range to utilize. The disruptor has a cast ability with a 21 second cool down. It is also not a /siege/ unit. The principles of the queen and disruptor are completely different to that of a siege tank. An offensive or defensive unit, depending on how it is used. With a 13 range attack under its siege mode.
Your argument would have been better if you stated: The colossus can be picked up by the warp prism, to which no one is complaining about that.
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On February 28 2016 05:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 00:01 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 22:50 CheddarToss wrote:On February 27 2016 22:44 PressureSC2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:32 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these? Because they are not units that have been strategically converted to a static defense structure. You see the problem with spore and spine crawler design if suddenly you could overlord drop them pre-burrowed? It would become the only strategy we would spectate because nothing would hold a candle to it. Imagine Warp Prisms being able to drop Cannons. its not like queens move fast off creep they are supposed to be a defensive unit yet you can drop queens. same principle with disruptors, they are supposed to be an immobile unit yet you can pick them up in a warp prism, and i see nobody crying about those designs. Yes, the queens are supposed to be defensive, which is the role they fill. They are not a /siege/ unit. They have 5 range to utilize. The disruptor has a cast ability with a 21 second cool down. It is also not a /siege/ unit. The principles of the queen and disruptor are completely different to that of a siege tank. An offensive or defensive unit, depending on how it is used. With a 13 range attack under its siege mode. Your argument would have been better if you stated: The colossus can be picked up by the warp prism, to which no one is complaining about that.
well everyone here has different arguments and i wasnt responding to you, but since in your case you have a problem it being a SIEGE unit, explain to me why collosus drop okay for you but siege tank not?
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On February 28 2016 06:20 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 05:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:On February 28 2016 00:01 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 22:50 CheddarToss wrote:On February 27 2016 22:44 PressureSC2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:32 QzYSc2 wrote:On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these? Because they are not units that have been strategically converted to a static defense structure. You see the problem with spore and spine crawler design if suddenly you could overlord drop them pre-burrowed? It would become the only strategy we would spectate because nothing would hold a candle to it. Imagine Warp Prisms being able to drop Cannons. its not like queens move fast off creep they are supposed to be a defensive unit yet you can drop queens. same principle with disruptors, they are supposed to be an immobile unit yet you can pick them up in a warp prism, and i see nobody crying about those designs. Yes, the queens are supposed to be defensive, which is the role they fill. They are not a /siege/ unit. They have 5 range to utilize. The disruptor has a cast ability with a 21 second cool down. It is also not a /siege/ unit. The principles of the queen and disruptor are completely different to that of a siege tank. An offensive or defensive unit, depending on how it is used. With a 13 range attack under its siege mode. Your argument would have been better if you stated: The colossus can be picked up by the warp prism, to which no one is complaining about that. well everyone here has different arguments and i wasnt responding to you, but since in your case you have a problem it being a SIEGE unit, explain to me why collosus drop okay for you but siege tank not?
I don't have a problem with the tank being inside of a medi-vac for transportation. I do have a problem with it being in siege mode while it's being transported. A lurker being transported will not instantly be re-burrowed. The lurker also only has 9 range when sieging. The colossus with extended thermal lance only utilizes 9 range. A siege tank stays in siege mode, with the most range out of all three of those siege unit choices. On top of that, you have the ability to quickly boost and re-position in comparison to the other two transportation methods. I don't believe that's proper balance design imo.
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Accidental double post. Meant to edit my prior post.
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EPT
