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On February 27 2016 04:28 MockHamill wrote:
I am very disappointed in this update.
A large majority of the player want to remove the tankivac and increase tank damage. Tankivacs have completely destroyed TvT and made what once was the most beautiful machup completely one dimensional.
Do let a few Korean pro players destroy the game. Blizzard first priority should be that the game is fun and varied to play, not what the pro players think.
League of Legends is popular because the priority is the players and making the game fun and varied, the e-sport scene is consequence of the game being popular, not the other way around. Blizzard should learn from this, there is no shame in copying what works, it is only smart.
I think the whole reason for this games decline is that Blizzard worries too much about e-sport instead of prioritising making the actual game fun and varied, making it is possible to use multiple compositions in every match ups.
Protoss and Zerg have lots of different viable combos. Terran has only marine/tankivac.
I cannot emphasize this line of thinking enough. Blizzard has their approach to SC2 pretty much ass backwards. Even in this update, they justify almost everything with "what we think is cool", because they think that translates directly into an e-sport. It doesn't. You can look at any and every sport in existence, at some point or another every sport got the traction it has by being a fun game to play. Basketball wasn't designed from the ground up to be spectator-friendly, they didn't do stuff like make the ball explode and leave a hole in the court every time it's dunked, because that isn't how it became a sport. It became a sport by being a solid game that people love to play, and it does that by having rock-solid fundamentals and a variety of ways to play it.
I honestly wonder what would happen if David Kim couldn't use the word cool, nor any synonym for the word cool. I don't think he'd be able to write another update.
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On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man
flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these?
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On February 27 2016 04:28 MockHamill wrote:
I am very disappointed in this update.
A large majority of the player want to remove the tankivac and increase tank damage. Tankivacs have completely destroyed TvT and made what once was the most beautiful machup completely one dimensional.
Do let a few Korean pro players destroy the game. Blizzard first priority should be that the game is fun and varied to play, not what the pro players think.
League of Legends is popular because the priority is the players and making the game fun and varied, the e-sport scene is consequence of the game being popular, not the other way around. Blizzard should learn from this, there is no shame in copying what works, it is only smart.
I think the whole reason for this games decline is that Blizzard worries too much about e-sport instead of prioritising making the actual game fun and varied, making it is possible to use multiple compositions in every match ups.
Protoss and Zerg have lots of different viable combos. Terran has only marine/tankivac.
Yep, that is very true. Blizzard needs to stop buffing/nerfing units for 5 korean pros that exist in whatever proleague/tourney. They sacrifice the possibility of diverse play because medivacs or tankivacs or whatever are "too strong" or "too weak" in the hands of a few top players.
The game itself needs to be tweaked to have more strategies and be balanced/diverse. I honestly do not care what the top 5 korean pros want because they are extremely biased and if progamers had their way...
THERE WOULD BE ZERO CHANGES TO THE GAME EVER.
Yep, you read that right. SC2 pros for some reason all never want any change at all, even if every single game till the end of time will be 100% bio + tankivac every single game. They'd be fine with that because it gets them their pay day and they don't have to adapt.
I think a lot of the community and player base wants to be able to do more than just 1 strategy. People for YEARS, YEARS,, YEARS, have wanted viable mech play, but for some reason everything is done to basically make mech and strategic diversity obsolete it seems, and just have spastic bio play to be the only way to play the game.
The tankivac is literally just a bio unit. It's literally made a tank into a bio unit. The tank is supposed to be a fearsome ground control unit that says "you do not go here, or you make a definitive engagement and fight me. But also i cannot retreat from this situation too as a weakness."
Blizzard basically is doing the same mistake they did when they started the bullshit "now medivacs can heal hellbats." Trying to turn our beloved siege tank into another bio unit. I'm going to say it here - tankivacs suck, i don't want the last bastion of a mech unit to be bastardized into another bio unit. I'm honestly tired of it.
I've tried for years playing this game to get feedback to blizzard on how they can very easily make mech viable without making it OP - and none of it is listened to. It's still basically brushed aside imo, and i have THOUSANDS of mech tvt/tvz/tvp to draw experience from and give my feedback.
You would think blizzard would do the same thing Riot does and consult people in the community that are knowledgeable about that specific champion or strategy to help them out on changes. If anyone from blizzard is willing to contact me, by all means, we can have a great conversation and i can help articulate why mech is the way it is currently and point blizzard in the direction of a couple changes i believe will add strategic diversity to SC2.
Now seeing they are so hesitant again to really elevate SC2 strategic diversity to the level it should be...
SC2 CAN BE THE #1 E-SPORT AGAIN. Some people are going to say, "fuck you avilo it doesn't need to be." etc etc. But guess what? SC2 LOTV viewer numbers are rising. But a lot of people do not seem to understand WHY.
Why are LOTV numbers growing slowly but growing compared to HOTS? It's because of not just THE changes to gameplay but the fact that THERE ARE CHANGES - THE FACT THAT CHANGES ARE BEING MADE THEMSELVES IS GETTING PEOPLE TO PLAY AND WATCH THE GAME.
This is a key point i feel not even our beloved GSL/community commentators are able to articulate properly.
Tankivacs, ravagers, lurkers, adepts, etc etc. all are patch changes. Changes that you can easily argue make watching the game exciting not because tankivacs are some fast paced bullshit, but because it's fucking new, and different, and that is what viewers are attracted to like crack.
Viewers do NOT want to see the same game 1000 games in a row of reaper expand, into 3 rax double medivac drop, etc etc u get the point i'm trying to make. People want patch changes, people want diverse strategies. If we for example continue to see Zerg players making 100% roach/ravager every single pro level ZvT...i think viewer numbers will start to drop again pretty quickly. Things like that need to be fixed.
Anyways, back to the point - MECH. Why after 5-6 years of SC2 can we just not get the 50 flat damage and upgrades back onto the siege tank? Why does it take years of time and still no changes to mech anti-air to make it so people can't just spam mass tempest and beat everything you have?
There are so many blatantly obvious changes to the game that can bring MECH back into the game in a HEALTHY WAY.
NO I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TURTLE BULLSHIT MECH, BUT ACTUAL MECH.
1) Make tanks not suck again, remove the tankivac that is just now a bio unit. Stop trying to turn mech units into bio units.
2) Make thors/cyclones able to handle air units. If my opponent gets out 5 tempest i should not have to sit there for 20 more minutes making 5 starports to have to counter his air. Mech will be more aggro/action packed if someone that opts to go mech can go up to 8-10 factories instead of being forced to turtle into mass starports/vikings/air.
I dunno...i'm pretty disillusioned at this point with blizzard ever truly making mech or any other strat than bio viable for Terran. They just keep trying to turn every mech unit into a bio unit. -_-
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On February 27 2016 14:32 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 04:28 MockHamill wrote:
I am very disappointed in this update.
A large majority of the player want to remove the tankivac and increase tank damage. Tankivacs have completely destroyed TvT and made what once was the most beautiful machup completely one dimensional.
Do let a few Korean pro players destroy the game. Blizzard first priority should be that the game is fun and varied to play, not what the pro players think.
League of Legends is popular because the priority is the players and making the game fun and varied, the e-sport scene is consequence of the game being popular, not the other way around. Blizzard should learn from this, there is no shame in copying what works, it is only smart.
I think the whole reason for this games decline is that Blizzard worries too much about e-sport instead of prioritising making the actual game fun and varied, making it is possible to use multiple compositions in every match ups.
Protoss and Zerg have lots of different viable combos. Terran has only marine/tankivac. I cannot emphasize this line of thinking enough. Blizzard has their approach to SC2 pretty much ass backwards. Even in this update, they justify almost everything with "what we think is cool", because they think that translates directly into an e-sport. It doesn't. You can look at any and every sport in existence, at some point or another every sport got the traction it has by being a fun game to play. Basketball wasn't designed from the ground up to be spectator-friendly, they didn't do stuff like make the ball explode and leave a hole in the court every time it's dunked, because that isn't how it became a sport. It became a sport by being a solid game that people love to play, and it does that by having rock-solid fundamentals and a variety of ways to play it. I honestly wonder what would happen if David Kim couldn't use the word cool, nor any synonym for the word cool. I don't think he'd be able to write another update.
Yeah and that's why Flash playing Broodwar has 75k viewers while premier SC2 tournaments struggle to get as many viewers. SC2 is a good game, but it has been butchered repeatedly by "cool" design decisions.
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Well at least they do care things. Good to see.
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Maybe make it so you cannot boost a medivac that's carrying a tank or slow down the speed of the medivac carrying the tank.
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Cyclone really need health buff.
4 supply but only has 120 hp is ridiculous.......
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On February 27 2016 10:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 10:05 MaxTa wrote:
I really don't get why people are so disgusted by mech play though... Harassing with hellions and banshees while slowly expanding and securing your expos with tanks and even mixing it with some ghosts or cyclones/mines !! Why is it that terrible and awful to watch compared to marine + tankivacs drop ?? Answer: because zergs and protoss want to play vs the same army composition every game so they don't have to adapt their playstyle to their opponent
Aren´t you the one who want´s to be able to play only mech? One composition? Also what about the huge amount of whine about ultras from terrans who now have to do something else than go marine/marauder all game?  Zerg´s have adapted to the new situation. LBM has given way to roach/ravager/lurker/infestor/ultra/BL mixes.
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I'd like to test Tanks unsiege when pickup.
Would keep the defensive micro and improve TvT i think
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On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man
Sieged up tanks that fly !! As in tanks you pressed a button to make immobile. It's like Griphons carrying archer towers.
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On February 27 2016 15:25 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 14:32 NewSunshine wrote:On February 27 2016 04:28 MockHamill wrote:
I am very disappointed in this update.
A large majority of the player want to remove the tankivac and increase tank damage. Tankivacs have completely destroyed TvT and made what once was the most beautiful machup completely one dimensional.
Do let a few Korean pro players destroy the game. Blizzard first priority should be that the game is fun and varied to play, not what the pro players think.
League of Legends is popular because the priority is the players and making the game fun and varied, the e-sport scene is consequence of the game being popular, not the other way around. Blizzard should learn from this, there is no shame in copying what works, it is only smart.
I think the whole reason for this games decline is that Blizzard worries too much about e-sport instead of prioritising making the actual game fun and varied, making it is possible to use multiple compositions in every match ups.
Protoss and Zerg have lots of different viable combos. Terran has only marine/tankivac. I cannot emphasize this line of thinking enough. Blizzard has their approach to SC2 pretty much ass backwards. Even in this update, they justify almost everything with "what we think is cool", because they think that translates directly into an e-sport. It doesn't. You can look at any and every sport in existence, at some point or another every sport got the traction it has by being a fun game to play. Basketball wasn't designed from the ground up to be spectator-friendly, they didn't do stuff like make the ball explode and leave a hole in the court every time it's dunked, because that isn't how it became a sport. It became a sport by being a solid game that people love to play, and it does that by having rock-solid fundamentals and a variety of ways to play it. I honestly wonder what would happen if David Kim couldn't use the word cool, nor any synonym for the word cool. I don't think he'd be able to write another update. Yeah and that's why Flash playing Broodwar has 75k viewers while premier SC2 tournaments struggle to get as many viewers. SC2 is a good game, but it has been butchered repeatedly by "cool" design decisions.
Do you even believe what your saying or do you like just to make up strawman arguments in order to look "right"?
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Honestly if they remove tankivac, TvZ will be neigh unwinnable.. boosting the damage by 5 is pretty much a joke. So I am glad to hear they are looking into it still.
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Raw Siege Tank damage (for their cost) has been a bit of an issue against non-armored units from day 1 outside of the original Marine/Tank vs Ling/Bane/Muta. With Bile, Abduct as well as many highly mobile units, the tank just can't zone as effectively as it could in BW. You just don't get enough in return for investing into Siege Tanks and anchoring yourself in place. Adding shield damage would help against Protoss but Bile and Abduct still nullify tanks a lot.
Given that Tanks are literally bolted into the damn ground, why not make it so that Abduct doesn't work on Sieged Tanks?
It would still work against Thors, Battlecruisers, unsieged Tanks but Tanks in Siege Mode would not be abductable.
Bile is more tricky vs Tanks since Siege Mode effectively ensures it will hit.
The only thing I can think of right now is to let the Siege Tank be the one with range advantage vs Bile.
That way a proper Siege Line would be risky for Ravagers to engage because they'll likely have to take some fire if they want use their Bile.
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Cyclone = 3 supply 120 HP
Tempest = 4 supply 450 HP
TVP is horrible, first open with mass phoenix adepts than once the tempests + storm are done its gg
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On February 27 2016 21:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Cyclone = 3 supply 120 HP
Tempest = 4 supply 450 HP
TVP is horrible, first open with mass phoenix adepts than once the tempests + storm are done its gg
Tempests are overpowered for the stats/supply they have. But I'll do you one better.
Cyclone = 120 HP
Auto Turret = 150 HP
Auto-turret does more DPS than a cyclone.
*drops the mic* @_@
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On February 27 2016 22:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 21:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Cyclone = 3 supply 120 HP
Tempest = 4 supply 450 HP
TVP is horrible, first open with mass phoenix adepts than once the tempests + storm are done its gg Tempests are overpowered for the stats/supply they have. But I'll do you one better. Cyclone = 120 HP Auto Turret = 150 HP Auto-turret does more DPS than a cyclone. *drops the mic* @_@
*picks up the mic*
Mulitple units in the game have similar or less hit points for similar costs.
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On February 27 2016 22:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 21:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Cyclone = 3 supply 120 HP
Tempest = 4 supply 450 HP
TVP is horrible, first open with mass phoenix adepts than once the tempests + storm are done its gg Tempests are overpowered for the stats/supply they have. But I'll do you one better. Cyclone = 120 HP Auto Turret = 150 HP Auto-turret does more DPS than a cyclone. *drops the mic* @_@
Auto-turret life-time: 7sec.
Cyclone: Potentially till the end of the game.
Cyclone is literally immortal.
*drops the mic* @_@
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Whatever the mic is.
If they choose damage buff then it must be over 9000 to justify120hp and 4 supply.
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On February 27 2016 21:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 15:25 CheddarToss wrote:On February 27 2016 14:32 NewSunshine wrote:On February 27 2016 04:28 MockHamill wrote:
I am very disappointed in this update.
A large majority of the player want to remove the tankivac and increase tank damage. Tankivacs have completely destroyed TvT and made what once was the most beautiful machup completely one dimensional.
Do let a few Korean pro players destroy the game. Blizzard first priority should be that the game is fun and varied to play, not what the pro players think.
League of Legends is popular because the priority is the players and making the game fun and varied, the e-sport scene is consequence of the game being popular, not the other way around. Blizzard should learn from this, there is no shame in copying what works, it is only smart.
I think the whole reason for this games decline is that Blizzard worries too much about e-sport instead of prioritising making the actual game fun and varied, making it is possible to use multiple compositions in every match ups.
Protoss and Zerg have lots of different viable combos. Terran has only marine/tankivac. I cannot emphasize this line of thinking enough. Blizzard has their approach to SC2 pretty much ass backwards. Even in this update, they justify almost everything with "what we think is cool", because they think that translates directly into an e-sport. It doesn't. You can look at any and every sport in existence, at some point or another every sport got the traction it has by being a fun game to play. Basketball wasn't designed from the ground up to be spectator-friendly, they didn't do stuff like make the ball explode and leave a hole in the court every time it's dunked, because that isn't how it became a sport. It became a sport by being a solid game that people love to play, and it does that by having rock-solid fundamentals and a variety of ways to play it. I honestly wonder what would happen if David Kim couldn't use the word cool, nor any synonym for the word cool. I don't think he'd be able to write another update. Yeah and that's why Flash playing Broodwar has 75k viewers while premier SC2 tournaments struggle to get as many viewers. SC2 is a good game, but it has been butchered repeatedly by "cool" design decisions. Do you even believe what your saying or do you like just to make up strawman arguments in order to look "right"?
I do believe that SC2's design has been held back by the obsession with what seems cool at first glance. That is why there are clunky units like the Thor in the game, instead of Goliaths which make more sense and offer tremendously better gameplay. That is also why warpgate is available so early, instead of being a late game upgrade. And those are only two out of seemingly endless number of examples.
Tankivacs are in this game, because they have this same perverted "coolness factor".
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On February 27 2016 14:32 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 14:15 billynasty wrote:
Flying tanks. Flying tanks.
Flying tanks?
do you see whats wrong there?
tanks... that fly?
cmon man
No need to get into stats & numbers & all that jazz, its the design i take issue with.
tanks that fly?
cmon man flying queens? flying thors? flying collosus? why dont you have a problem with these?
Because they are not units that have been strategically converted to a static defense structure. You see the problem with spore and spine crawler design if suddenly you could overlord drop them pre-burrowed? It would become the only strategy we would spectate because nothing would hold a candle to it.
The immobility is supposed to be the tradeoff that allows the siege damage to be sufficient to prevent more mobile armies to 1-A one of your bases.
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EPT
