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PvT @ 47,86% ======> "Most problematic match-up" (DK)
PvZ @ 41,92% ======> not a word.....
I'm not saying Adept and PO aren't absurdily stupid and should be nerfed accordingly. I'm saying that Protoss is obviously relying heavily on these two crunches (and yes, they are crunches) to stay in the game, and not even succeeding in PvZ to manage it to begin with. Yet, this "unproblematic" match-up is not being discussed at all by the devs.
You guys watched the games of the last 2 weeks in PvT. Usually the Protoss player wins the first 2 games with Adept agression, decides to change it abit in the 3rd game only to have it flop completely on its head, then he goes back to Adept WP play to secure the win in his round.
I predict that PvT will go into the mid 40-ish% and PvZ into the mid 30-ish%. Perhaps then DK and co. will deem it worthy of discussing potential buffs to the Protoss race; buffs which aren't in the forms of effin crunches and gimmicks.
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Glad we see some proper result from Blizzard, im looking forward to play on the balance map
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On January 23 2016 05:47 Vanadiel wrote:
I honestly think too that, while adept and PO needs a nerf, Protoss will need a buff to late game to compensate. I think it's good time to play around the colossus since it's no longer used at all at the moment, they can try to make it more interesting to play and more useful. Why not try other design than the actual one, such a linear attack?
That might made for some interesting micro interactions that don't involve spell casting. Careful with this kind of talk. Darth Kim might send someone to your house at night...
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Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was
Adept ghosts now have no vision.
It would make it super risky to commit, but still as good.
i do like the minus damage nerf.
Ravagers and liberators still need some tunedowns but otherwise, ok.
edit: by the way this nerf is inspired by the bounty hunter and slardar nerfs in dota 2, and they worked wonderfully there as well. information is king.
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On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was
We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible.
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How does the old overcharge compare with the new one? It seems like it'll be the almost the exact same as a bunch of pylons shooting at you.
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On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible.
This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at.
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Anything with the name overcharge just needs to be removed from SC2. Overcharging things should be illegal.
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France248 Posts
On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was It would make it super risky to commit, but still as good. i do like the minus damage nerf. Ravagers and liberators still need some tunedowns but otherwise, ok. edit: by the way this nerf is inspired by the bounty hunter and slardar nerfs in dota 2, and they worked wonderfully there as well. information is king.
This sounds kinda silly to me. Who would ever want to commit to teleporting to some place you can't see? And if you need a flying unit, obs or a revelation to use adepts, how is that any different from blink?
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On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at.
Wat?
That isn't the problem when it comes to gambling and the Widow Mine. The problem is that you set it and forget it somewhere. It takes no skill. If your opponent happens to run over it without detection, they lose. And of course, they might have no detection and not run over it, so it isn't reliable.
You might say "well the skill is where you put them" but the result is the same as a random ladder all-in that depends on your opponent not scouting, you are depending on your opponent to play poorly.
Now Widow Mines are often used as part of an army versus Zerg, which they work fine in honestly (as part of an army composition), though Siege Tanks were better. But then they also get used for drops where they are overpowered versus workers, particularly versus Protoss to the point where Protoss needed extra units giving detection (Oracle) and Photon Overcharge. Sure, Zerg could drop Banelings and Protoss could drop High Templars, but those drops don't come out nearly as early as Widow Mine drops.
That is not a good mechanic for the game. The Siege Tank is the complete opposite, it is entirely predictable and skill plays a huge role in how it works.
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On January 23 2016 06:16 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. Wat? That isn't the problem when it comes to gambling and the Widow Mine. The problem is that you set it and forget it somewhere. It takes no skill. If your opponent happens to run over it without detection, they lose. And of course, they might have no detection and not run over it, so it isn't reliable. You might say "well the skill is where you put them" but the result is the same as a random ladder all-in that depends on your opponent not scouting, you are depending on your opponent to play poorly. That is not a good mechanic for the game.
So along with WM, we remove stasis ward, Lurkers, and Vultures from Brood War?
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France248 Posts
On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at.
How many terran in the world can consistently focus fire with a widow mine, again?
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Where is the lurker nerf ?
Blizzard you need to nerf all those turlte units to make the game more dynamic !
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On January 23 2016 06:19 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. How many terran in the world can consistently focus fire with a widow mine, again?
The ones that the game used to be balanced around.
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On January 23 2016 06:19 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. How many terran in the world can consistently focus fire with a widow mine, again?
Great. While we're cutting WMs for being shit design, let's make sure we first remove roaches, Ultralisks, Corruptors, Lurkers, vipers, Zealots, adepts, dark Templar, archon, MSC, mothership, carrier, tempest, void ray, Colossus, Oracle, thor, Battlecruiser for being the same or worse.
Let's then not forget to make up a new reason for Zerg not to A+move 50 banes into bio.
Solid plan.
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On January 23 2016 06:19 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. Wat? That isn't the problem when it comes to gambling and the Widow Mine. The problem is that you set it and forget it somewhere. It takes no skill. If your opponent happens to run over it without detection, they lose. And of course, they might have no detection and not run over it, so it isn't reliable. You might say "well the skill is where you put them" but the result is the same as a random ladder all-in that depends on your opponent not scouting, you are depending on your opponent to play poorly. That is not a good mechanic for the game. So along with WM, we remove stasis ward, Lurkers, and Vultures from Brood War?
This conversation has nothing to do with Brood War. That said, Spider Mines could be killed before they hit (even if you had no detection), and just because Brood War was a great game, doesn't mean certain things couldn't be improved upon.
But let's compare them to Lurkers, now that Lurkers are in the game. If you run into a single Lurker with your army while you are macroing, you'll get the signal that you army is under attack, and be able to react losing nothing.
When you get that signal versus a Widow Mine, you've already lost units.
The problem is burst damage, as it has always been with so many things in Starcraft. Razzia of Blizzsters so brilliantly illuminated that, that things like the Widow Mine compress time (reaction time) to the point where skill is diluted.
Now of course if Zerg masses Lurkers, you might have lost your army to Zerg burst, but that the cost and dedication to such a move is significant. Far more significant than the cost and dedication of a couple of Widow Mines.
The Widow Mine was intended to make Mech viable. It turned out to replace the SIege Tank and make Bio better. It needs to go.
On January 23 2016 06:27 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:19 PPN wrote:On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. How many terran in the world can consistently focus fire with a widow mine, again? Great. While we're cutting WMs for being shit design, let's make sure we first remove roaches, Ultralisks, Corruptors, Lurkers, vipers, Zealots, adepts, dark Templar, archon, MSC, mothership, carrier, tempest, void ray, Colossus, Oracle, thor, Battlecruiser for being the same or worse. Let's then not forget to make up a new reason for Zerg not to A+move 50 banes into bio. Solid plan.
Do you know what a logical fallacy is?
Instead of spouting non-sense and hyperbole, try actually discussing things, like why you think we should cut all those units since they are the "same or worse." Zealots are in no way akin to Widow Mines, so they aren't the same or worse in terms of game design.
Just seems like you are raging because you need the Widow Mine to kill Banes. And that is fine, but Tanks took a lot more skill to counter Banes, and the game should be about skill.
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On January 23 2016 06:16 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. Wat? That isn't the problem when it comes to gambling and the Widow Mine. The problem is that you set it and forget it somewhere. It takes no skill. If your opponent happens to run over it without detection, they lose. And of course, they might have no detection and not run over it, so it isn't reliable. You might say "well the skill is where you put them" but the result is the same as a random ladder all-in that depends on your opponent not scouting, you are depending on your opponent to play poorly. That is not a good mechanic for the game. The Siege Tank is the complete opposite, it is entirely predictable and skill plays a huge role in how it works.
Widow mines are rarely used that way. Outside of harass they're always with your army. You always know where they are. You poke forward with bio then retreat into mines drawing the enemy army into mine fire.
You don't randomly place them around the map and hope for the best. That's a waste of supply and resources.
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On January 23 2016 06:29 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 23 2016 06:19 PPN wrote:On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. How many terran in the world can consistently focus fire with a widow mine, again? Great. While we're cutting WMs for being shit design, let's make sure we first remove roaches, Ultralisks, Corruptors, Lurkers, vipers, Zealots, adepts, dark Templar, archon, MSC, mothership, carrier, tempest, void ray, Colossus, Oracle, thor, Battlecruiser for being the same or worse. Let's then not forget to make up a new reason for Zerg not to A+move 50 banes into bio. Solid plan. There is no way that Zerglings have a gambling aspect to them.
Congrats on picking like the one unit he didn't mention.
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I always aim to please.
Thanks, I edited my error.
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EPT
