On January 23 2016 07:47 avilo wrote: -1 dmg on adept won't change anything at all - Protoss will just research +1 ... and even then the unit will still be absurd.
Parasitic bomb is a no skill - no counterplay ability. Creates stalemates lategame because T can't engage unless you hit lucky emp/snipe on vipers (doesn't happen vs good players).
And wow blizzard ignores literally pages upon pages of mech feedback - who knew they would do this? I guess mech won't ever get an anti-air unit and will remain the current "made mech untis-> now have to turtle 30 more min into mass air units to beat his air units"
Not enough changes, changes come too slow, and they don't even understand / nor care about mech it seems other than their trivial understanding that tanks could use a buff. Tank buff alone is not going to do jack shit though, mech needs an anti-air unit otherwise it will always be "turtle into mass air units."
Also, how does -1 dmg do anything to address adepts in pvz/zvp? This shit should have been hot fixed like literally 1-2 weeks or less after it was shown to be a huge balance issue.
You know adepts are strong because they can do damage early in the game right? Getting +1 is a significant delay and 1 damage nerf means they take 50% more time to kill a marine / SCV...if that is not significant nerf to you I don't know what is? Making mech viable is not a priority by any means, adressing balance issues that should have been adressed during beta is. The problem that nerfing protoss right now even if it is warranted it will make the race extremely weak and it will take more time to adjust everything else.
It would make it super risky to commit, but still as good.
i do like the minus damage nerf. Ravagers and liberators still need some tunedowns but otherwise, ok.
edit: by the way this nerf is inspired by the bounty hunter and slardar nerfs in dota 2, and they worked wonderfully there as well. information is king.
I like this a lot. The shade provides vision without risks or cost, it is a bad design. It is not a balance problem.
All new units need to be tuned down, no strategy without them works any more. That is very telling...
I'd like to have the Pilon Overcharge out of the game, it is not fun to play and to watch. Buff cannons instead, reducing its cost. The cannon rush is dead anyway, due to the changes in the economy.
I don't understand the spore nerf because mutas are already very viable in ZvZ. With this it will just change into allin before mutas, or have muta vs muta snoozefest all day
On January 23 2016 07:40 BronzeKnee wrote: The fact I have power of over you over the internet says a lot about you. Be like me, don't care what other people think about you.
The only opinion that matters is what you think of yourself.
The fact that you think you have power over me says a lot about you. Don't worry about me BronzeKnee, thinking that you're an ass doesn't get in the way of me having a fantastic day.
I don't think the WM is genius design, I think - as I said - it is genius compared to the other units in this game. In fact, as I'm sure you're aware, a unit can only be designed well or poorly in relation to other units. Banelings without WMs are awful, with WMs they're great. Marines without Medivacs and Banes are terrible, with them they're friggin awesome.
The WM's defining characteristic, as seen 99% of the time that it's used in the MU where it's used the most, is making Zerg units more interesting than they otherwise would be.
Any shittiness in the randomness of its targeting (still kind of an issue), or its burst (not at all an issue IMO), pales in comparison to the good it does for the MU.
If you're drawing a line for units that deserve to be cut or totally reworked, there are infinity plus one better candidates than the WM, eg Roaches, which are neither interesting in and of themselves, nor force particularly interesting plays of the opponent.
On January 23 2016 08:31 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: I don't understand the spore nerf because mutas are already very viable in ZvZ. With this it will just change into allin before mutas, or have muta vs muta snoozefest all day
It actually a nerf to the PZ vs ZZ matchup as P can no longer use Phoenixes to quickly dispose of attackers by lifting them against spores.
Well, from my point of view, MMMM vs Mutaling was by far the best MU of SC2 so I don't care at all about the tank, whatever the patch is, this unit and so the all MU will always be boring for me. I am a bit sad because right now especially since my favorite MU is becoming zvp...
But I am ok with the nerf of the bomb, the spamming of it is just too strong but a little buff of the corrupters would be nice then.
On January 23 2016 07:40 BronzeKnee wrote: The fact I have power of over you over the internet says a lot about you. Be like me, don't care what other people think about you.
The only opinion that matters is what you think of yourself.
The fact that you think you have power over me says a lot about you. Don't worry about me BronzeKnee, thinking that you're an ass doesn't get in the way of me having a fantastic day.
I don't think the WM is genius design, I think - as I said - it is genius compared to the other units in this game. In fact, as I'm sure you're aware, a unit can only be designed well or poorly in relation to other units. Banelings without WMs are awful, with WMs they're great. Marines without Medivacs and Banes are terrible, with them they're friggin awesome.
The WM's defining characteristic, as seen 99% of the time that it's used in the MU where it's used the most, is making Zerg units more interesting than they otherwise would be.
Any shittiness in the randomness of its targeting (still kind of an issue), or its burst (not at all an issue IMO), pales in comparison to the good it does for the MU.
If you're drawing a line for units that deserve to be cut or totally reworked, there are infinity plus one better candidates than the WM, eg Roaches, which are neither interesting in and of themselves, nor force particularly interesting plays of the opponent.
I don't think I have any power over you, you told me I did when you said you were mad because of me. But I don't want any power over you, and because I don't care about you, it doesn't matter to me if I do or not. So I'm glad you're having a fantastic day.
But anyway, now that we've cleared things up I agree that a unit can only be well designed in relation to other units.
That said, the Tank/Marine/Medivac offered Terran a variety of interesting units and an interesting play style versus another set of interesting units in Ling/Bane/Muta. That was the flagship matchup for a long time and a big reason why SC2 became so popular.
The Widow Mine waters down that dynamic significantly. Truth be told, the Mutalisk buff makes Tank/Marine/Medivac unviable, but the fact that Widows hits both air and ground and can be repositioned so quickly with such limited range water downs the strategy of TvZ. We wouldn't have had all the great games in WOL with it.
This is one of the greatest SC2 games of all time in my opinion, and with the Widow Mine we wouldn't have seen the greatness of it. The Tank was a much better of a counter to Banelings because Mutalisks countered it and because it had significant draw backs (unable to move while in Siege Mode) combined with ridiculous range and firepower.
Watch at the 13:00 minute mark, the positioning and battle that goes on. Impossible with Widow Mines.
There used to be a game within the game, the Zerg trying to catch Tanks without supporting Marines with Mutalisks or Zerglings or Marines without support Tanks with Banelings, while the Terran did the opposite. At the same time Medivacs could allow the Terran to harass while Mutalisks provided harrassment also. Just 6 interesting units made for a great game.
The Tank countering Banelings was much better game design, just like Protoss was more exciting to watch and play/play against without Photon Overcharge. Now are there other units that should be redesigned? Sure. But I'd love to see Tanks replace Widow Mines completely again in TvZ.
As for the problem with the WM burst, nothing else in the game has burst like it and it waters down counter play. Compare Teemo to Techies (Techies in old DOTA 5.38 I played in WC3). If you run into their bombs, Techies kills you instantly. If you hit a Teemo bomb it is damage over time that won't stack with itself so running over multiple bombs at the same time won't kill you instantly. And damage over time gives you time to cast other stuff, like heals or shields so you can survive.
Alternatively you could compare Zeus who does immediately damage (at least he used to) with his ultimate to Karthus, which gives an indicator that damage is coming for several seconds before doing damage. The difference is the player who is being hit has time to react against Karthus, not so much versus Zeus. And it actually makes people use Karthus's R more skillfully, they now need to keep track of if that hero has some kind of shield, is near someone with a heal, or whether Barrier is on CD or not.
Teemo and Karthus are just better game design. The same way the Banshee or DT are more appropriate forms of cloaked harass. If you look away from your base from a second and then look back and find a DT or Banshee, they'll have done some damage but it won't be critical and you can react. A single Widow Mine can kill a huge number of workers in a very short time, your reaction time is extremely limited. Bad design. It is also the epitome of anti-fun. A simple change where you got a warning when a Widow Mine was burrowing would go a long way in improving the design of the unit.
So yeah, the Widow Mine has a long way to do in terms of harass and as an army unit. Honestly, the game is, and was just better off without it.
By the way, infinity is a concept, not a number. You can't add to it anymore than you can add +1 to the theory of evolution.
On January 23 2016 08:58 Laserist wrote: "We agree with majority of you that TvP is the most problematic matchup by far right now"
I thought it was ZvP :D
Well, I for my part agree with all the complains in TvP and generously propose to nerf everything Terran and Protoss equally!
More seriously, I also find it funny that blizzard hasn't said a word about ZvP. It sounds like the only players they are listening to are the Koreans and for some reason Korean Protoss players are fine with their 40-45% winrate in PvZ. I guess with how many cheese options there are for Protoss the Korean meta will take another 15-years until they catch onto it.
On January 23 2016 09:15 NKexquisite wrote: This is the same update as last week.. I'm confused to what this update really provides us...
Deja vu.
They got a lot of pressure on them at the moment with stuchiu's article, the WCS '16 critizism, the balance flak they are getting from everywhere (Seed) and just want to take any opportunity like the test map release as a chance to pretend something new is happening. And after all they did say that some things are more urgent than others und should get pushed out as fast as possible, which is a type of feedback (that I can agree with).
Nerfing parasitic bomb has not much significance for roach vs. muta, maybe the very lategame it could come into play... but mainly spores are relevant in the midgame. I could almost be okay with spores 15 (+10 bio), +5 may be overnerf, I am glad they chose not to completely remove the additional damage to bio but I still think it may be over nerfing it. We'll see though, it's kind of interesting thinking about the current state of ZvZ lategame, weaker spores / vipers might allow mutas to mix up the stalemate that happens. SO we'll see. Rest of the changes seem reasonable to me as a Zerg.
-1 damage vs light units for the Adept is a good nerf, but I doubt it will be enough. It also needs a nerf to its shade ability, and probably another nerf to warp prism pickup range. And probably a buff to something else to balance things out against Zerg and late game, uncrippled Terran.
IMO this dick-swinging conversation about widow mines has very little to do with this update, there's a thing called a PM.
I'm curious about that comment re: Koreans not getting as much involvement in the feedback process, anyone have any references / opinions about that? I assumed that balance updates were being translated or something but maybe not?
Currently there are 8 Terrans 7 Zergs and 4 Protoss in Code S. Such protoss dominance in Korea, it is unbelievable. PvT winrates at 47% PvZ at 42%. This clearly indicates protoss is imba and should be double nerfed without compensation. Obviously ravagers and liberators are completely fine because they come later then adepts so they don't just end games quickly. I really enjoy disruptor versus disruptor PvP matches though, it is really exciting to watch people avoid engaging as long as possible then someone lose instantly due to a lucky/unlucky disruptor shot.
EPT
