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On January 23 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:
-1 dmg on adept won't change anything at all - Protoss will just research +1 ... and even then the unit will still be absurd.
Parasitic bomb is a no skill - no counterplay ability. Creates stalemates lategame because T can't engage unless you hit lucky emp/snipe on vipers (doesn't happen vs good players).
And wow blizzard ignores literally pages upon pages of mech feedback - who knew they would do this? I guess mech won't ever get an anti-air unit and will remain the current "made mech untis-> now have to turtle 30 more min into mass air units to beat his air units"
Not enough changes, changes come too slow, and they don't even understand / nor care about mech it seems other than their trivial understanding that tanks could use a buff. Tank buff alone is not going to do jack shit though, mech needs an anti-air unit otherwise it will always be "turtle into mass air units."
Also, how does -1 dmg do anything to address adepts in pvz/zvp? This shit should have been hot fixed like literally 1-2 weeks or less after it was shown to be a huge balance issue.
Lol Avilo do you even think before you just get on the internet and whine? By the time Protos researches +1 Terran will have combat shields duh.
I swear you at least used to put effort into your whining now it's not even good anymore.
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On January 23 2016 10:34 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 10:13 Charoisaur wrote:On January 23 2016 10:07 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 23 2016 10:05 jasonbourne907 wrote:
it is unchanging that adept performance per price is ridiculous in 1tier unit Ah so massing t1 units is a problem now, but the fact that zerglings and marines are viable and extremely effective throughout the entire game is not? Also with this change marines will be able to trade cost efficiently with units that are designed to kill light units. it's a problem when you need t3 units to counter t1 units. Protoss can just mass adepts and you are forced to turtle to mass libs/mass wm. adepts are supremely cost-effective against all low tier units of terran. Just watch alive vs classic where classic played with an adept monocomposition 10 minutes into the game and won. Um... this is like the entirety of the protoss side of life from WoL => HotS Terran spams bio Protoss needs T3 Now it is switched and people cry that there is a problem?
Give Terran High Templars, Disruptors, and the ability to warp in Bio units and I promise not to cry.
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On January 23 2016 12:45 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 10:34 Naracs_Duc wrote:On January 23 2016 10:13 Charoisaur wrote:On January 23 2016 10:07 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 23 2016 10:05 jasonbourne907 wrote:
it is unchanging that adept performance per price is ridiculous in 1tier unit Ah so massing t1 units is a problem now, but the fact that zerglings and marines are viable and extremely effective throughout the entire game is not? Also with this change marines will be able to trade cost efficiently with units that are designed to kill light units. it's a problem when you need t3 units to counter t1 units. Protoss can just mass adepts and you are forced to turtle to mass libs/mass wm. adepts are supremely cost-effective against all low tier units of terran. Just watch alive vs classic where classic played with an adept monocomposition 10 minutes into the game and won. Um... this is like the entirety of the protoss side of life from WoL => HotS Terran spams bio Protoss needs T3 Now it is switched and people cry that there is a problem? Give Terran High Templars, Disruptors, and the ability to warp in Bio units and I promise not to cry.
Sure, but lets make a deal give protoss stim. Stimmed chargelots would look like they are on coffee brewed in redbull and flavored with meth.
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Tanks will always be in a shit state until they bring back in overkill. Overkill heavily balanced tanks.
It allowed tanks to be strong in low numbers, by having a very high dmg number. It also nerfed tanks in huge deathballs (they were still insane, but a lot worse).
Overkill was the solution. Without overkill, you can't have super high dmg because they would murder everything. This means tanks suck in small numbers with the reduced dmg.
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On January 23 2016 12:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:
-1 dmg on adept won't change anything at all - Protoss will just research +1 ... and even then the unit will still be absurd.
Parasitic bomb is a no skill - no counterplay ability. Creates stalemates lategame because T can't engage unless you hit lucky emp/snipe on vipers (doesn't happen vs good players).
And wow blizzard ignores literally pages upon pages of mech feedback - who knew they would do this? I guess mech won't ever get an anti-air unit and will remain the current "made mech untis-> now have to turtle 30 more min into mass air units to beat his air units"
Not enough changes, changes come too slow, and they don't even understand / nor care about mech it seems other than their trivial understanding that tanks could use a buff. Tank buff alone is not going to do jack shit though, mech needs an anti-air unit otherwise it will always be "turtle into mass air units."
Also, how does -1 dmg do anything to address adepts in pvz/zvp? This shit should have been hot fixed like literally 1-2 weeks or less after it was shown to be a huge balance issue. Lol Avilo do you even think before you just get on the internet and whine? By the time Protos researches +1 Terran will have combat shields duh.
SCVs don't get combat shields.
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On January 23 2016 13:15 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 12:38 DinoMight wrote:On January 23 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:
-1 dmg on adept won't change anything at all - Protoss will just research +1 ... and even then the unit will still be absurd.
Parasitic bomb is a no skill - no counterplay ability. Creates stalemates lategame because T can't engage unless you hit lucky emp/snipe on vipers (doesn't happen vs good players).
And wow blizzard ignores literally pages upon pages of mech feedback - who knew they would do this? I guess mech won't ever get an anti-air unit and will remain the current "made mech untis-> now have to turtle 30 more min into mass air units to beat his air units"
Not enough changes, changes come too slow, and they don't even understand / nor care about mech it seems other than their trivial understanding that tanks could use a buff. Tank buff alone is not going to do jack shit though, mech needs an anti-air unit otherwise it will always be "turtle into mass air units."
Also, how does -1 dmg do anything to address adepts in pvz/zvp? This shit should have been hot fixed like literally 1-2 weeks or less after it was shown to be a huge balance issue. Lol Avilo do you even think before you just get on the internet and whine? By the time Protos researches +1 Terran will have combat shields duh. SCVs don't get combat shields.
The main issue at hand isn't PvT overall but the timing of the warp prism adept warp-in timing. Even if Toss doesn't opt to do it, the mere threat of it has a massive impact on the game and what Terran can do. This is a much bigger nerf than Avilo gives it credit.
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On January 23 2016 03:32 brickrd wrote:
spore nerf makes 0 sense... you can already still go muta into transition in zvz on larger maps...
that so not true it hurts
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this -1 dmg adept change is absurd. 3 shotting SCV or marines is absolutely not a big deal sorry. And even if it was, protoss can seek an early +1 weapon.
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On January 23 2016 13:56 Hurricaned wrote:
this -1 dmg adept change is absurd. 3 shotting SCV or marines is absolutely not a big deal sorry. And even if it was, protoss can seek an early +1 weapon.
it takes them a full 50% longer to kill scvs and marines, how is that NOT a big deal?
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On January 23 2016 13:56 Hurricaned wrote:
this -1 dmg adept change is absurd. 3 shotting SCV or marines is absolutely not a big deal sorry. And even if it was, protoss can seek an early +1 weapon.
50% damage nerf not a big deal lol
if +1 was not such a big deal why don't you get +1 armor huh? Oh wait, you're a terran and terrans don't usually like adapting to new strategies or change how they play since WoL beta sorry I almost forgot.
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On January 23 2016 06:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 06:47 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:40 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 06:31 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 06:09 royalroadweed wrote:On January 23 2016 06:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 23 2016 05:58 Wintex wrote:Honestly, the best nerf that could come to the adept was Adept ghosts now have no vision. We don't need anymore gambling in SC2. We already have the Widow Mine, and it is terrible. This needs to die. We now know exactly which unit the mine has locked on and will fire at. Wat? That isn't the problem when it comes to gambling and the Widow Mine. The problem is that you set it and forget it somewhere. It takes no skill. If your opponent happens to run over it without detection, they lose. And of course, they might have no detection and not run over it, so it isn't reliable. You might say "well the skill is where you put them" but the result is the same as a random ladder all-in that depends on your opponent not scouting, you are depending on your opponent to play poorly. That is not a good mechanic for the game. The Siege Tank is the complete opposite, it is entirely predictable and skill plays a huge role in how it works. Widow mines are rarely used that way. Outside of harass they're always with your army. You always know where they are. You poke forward with bio then retreat into mines drawing the enemy army into mine fire. You don't randomly place them around the map and hope for the best. That's a waste of supply and resources. There is two problems with that argument. First, it doesn't matter if it is rare. We have mass shootings in the United States rarely. That is not an argument for inaction against mass shootings. If we can do things to make things better, we should, regardless if the problem is rare.Secondly, I totally understand how Widow Mines are used and have been used. And it was not how Blizzard intended them to be used. That in itself isn't a problem, though it is damning for the designers (have to get my dig against David Kim in). Widow Mines are used defensively in locations versus Drops/Oracles/Mutalisks quite frequently, often spread as I said, not random, but in set and forget fashion. There is no other unit like the Widow for defending, set and forget and guarantee and kill. Good job changing your stance on the wm being a "gamble" to a set "set and forget and guarantee and kill". Below this is the first thing I said on this on the last page. Why are you misrepresenting what I said? Show nested quote +BronzeKnee wrote:
Wat?
That isn't the problem when it comes to gambling and the Widow Mine. The problem is that you set it and forget it somewhere. It takes no skill. If your opponent happens to run over it without detection, they lose. And of course, they might have no detection and not run over it, so it isn't reliable. The gamble is setting and forgetting and hoping your opponent is bad. That is a gamble, and I clearly wrote that. The problem lies with your comprehension and the fact you are purposely trying to misrepresent my argument and want me to say "well you just random spread them around" which is not what I said.
This is a silly argument. There are numerous units in the game where they are activated and forgotten about. In fact, you can even transform a Tank into Siege Mode and 'forget' about it - so when an enemy unit accidentally steps into its range and gets blown up, is that luck? You can even set up High Templar/Photon Cannon positions all over the map to establish late-game map control in HotS TvP - is it 'luck', or the 'functional equivalent of luck', when a Terran combat group 'accidentally' walks within vision range of a HT, and then the Protoss just presses T on the Terran?
The reality is, Widow Mines cannot be described as 'luck', except in TvZ when Zerg swarms over an unprepared Terran and the Terran selects all WMs in a panic and activates all of them, where it does serve as a 'luck' unit in which it is often random which of the units swarming over the Mine is selected. But I find that this provides for not-so-bad micro - Zerg has to target-fire the Mines with Mutalisks, split his Zerglings/Banelings, or even select 3 Banelings to crash into a group of Mines. This is a form of micro that is pretty good, in my opinion.
Furthermore, the examples you use are weak. You point out Widow Mine early game placement against Oracles. First of all, proxy Oracles themselves are an example of luck - you place a Stargate in a hidden location and pray an SCV/Reaper doesn't find it. But a WM in this circumstance is a calculated risk - the Terran is, based on numerous factors like the current meta, common Stargate hiding spots,etc - placing a land mine in what he thinks is the most likely place the Oracle will come out from. If he is correct, he destroys the Oracle - if not, he has to pull SCVs and shield them with his Marines. This is a quintessential element of StarCraft, namely, that of calculating risks. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.
The only problem I see with the WM is that it is too punishing - it can evaporate massive chunks of Banelings/Zerglings/Mutalisks, or it can fail completely and Terran gets destroyed. Or, in the case of the Oracle, Protoss loses a key investment, or Terran loses his entire mineral line. I think this philosophy of 'terrible terrible damage' needs to go
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I was hoping to alert people of strength of lliberator when accompanied with ground anti-air with my post but I am pretty disappointed to see Blizzard not do anything about the liberator- just flat out removed factory AA.
I feel like terran is being carried by liberator too much and need redistribute the power across other units as here you see that if you can establish anti air liberator is really damn hard to deal with.
instead blizzard just flat out removed thor buff AA and seems to love the tankivac enough to not change it until it absolutely needs to
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On January 23 2016 14:52 jinjin5000 wrote:
I feel like terran is being carried by liberator too much and need redistribute the power across other units as here you see that if you can establish anti air liberator is really damn hard to deal with.
This is something that should have been done in beta along with the tankivac change. The current situation on live servers is not conducive to touching either of those unless terran consistently dominates.
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On January 23 2016 14:56 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2016 14:52 jinjin5000 wrote:
I feel like terran is being carried by liberator too much and need redistribute the power across other units as here you see that if you can establish anti air liberator is really damn hard to deal with.
This is something that should have been done in beta along with the tankivac change. The current situation on live servers is not conducive to touching either of those unless terran consistently dominates.
you can really see liberator shine on games that terran can get to lategame in those rare TvPs (TY mainly) and other matchups but I can't say I like design of liberators. Siege unit with huge damage that is also good in mobility (short siege time, fast by itself) isn't too great as it isn't vulnerable to majority of units in this game as it is an air unit.
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Classic's mass adept build is still going to destroy a terran with the -1 damage against light, right?
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This mostly makes sense, though I'd have liked to see some slight nerf on the warp prism retarded range pick-up. But overall it looks alright.
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I think the OC nerf might actually be a bit too much, duration only increased by 5 seconds, damage is more or less irrelevant, and double the energy cost. I guess we'll have to see how the game plays out, but I feel Protoss will get behind in economy for sure.
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I wonder why PvZ no longer seems to be any point of concern for blizzard. At Dreamhack, we see zerg dominance again and also Protoss is underrepresented in Dia to GM league with really bad statistics in PvZ ("Zerg outnumber Protoss by 4.7% in GM, 41.2% in Masters, 64.1% in Diamond, 50.7% in Platinum, 15.1% in Gold and Protoss outnumber Zerg by 25.6% in Silver and 65.9% in Bronze.")
I also wonder, why parasite bomb is needed at all. Zerg already got infestor vs air... Is it just to avoid muta vs muta? Or to deal with protoss air compositions? If so, I really cannot understand why Protoss never got any effective AOE vs air. High templars are too slow to deal with harassment and also lost a lot of power vs mutas since mutas can regain health. Terras got liberator, zerg infestor AND Viper. I think if Protoss gets crowd control vs mutas, a lot of the PvZ problems will be solved. If you see a spire as Protoss, you kind of have to go for 2 stargates to get pheonixes out. But if the zerg switches to corrupters or vipers, you have a very small ground army and dead weight pheonixes. Also, because of the lack of an effective anti air AOE unit vs zerg, the unit composition changes hit Protoss so hard in the mid- and lategame.
Do not get me wrong, I do not want to flame vs zerg, but I play a lot of random in LOTV and that is just what I see as the main Problem for PvZ. The proposed changes for toss (my former main race) are actually good. On the other side, anyone who watched Uthermal yesterday should have get a great idea how to deal with photon overcharge (cyclones).
I
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What about the ladder revamp? Isn't it supposed to come this month?
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It's good to see Blizz starting to nerf things.
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EPT
