EPTPerhaps instead the right angle to approach the problem would be weakening Resonating Glaives or increasing the research time on that upgrade. It would make them easier to fight with Roaches/Marauders in the early game, which is when they appear to be problematic.
This week's balance test map - Page 5
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nucklepuckk
2 Posts
Perhaps instead the right angle to approach the problem would be weakening Resonating Glaives or increasing the research time on that upgrade. It would make them easier to fight with Roaches/Marauders in the early game, which is when they appear to be problematic. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
Blizzard always with the worst solution The problem with adepts is the shade. It is way too fast. Even if you react properly the shades are miles away, nerfing the speed of that stuff would be a good way to start. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
I agree this thing needed a nerf but I really don't want to see marauders dominate all protoss ground compositions again. Kinda hoping they try a different way to nerf it. Or make it armored but buff the base damage a bit mabye? Otherwise it will become a purely harass/early game unit in at least two matchups (PvT and PvP). | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
EDIT: i still think the shade should be killable in some way. Closing in from so far away for free is to much IMO. Maybe make it killable and once it's dead, the ability is reset and you can instantly reuse it. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
- Remove the 5 second warpin from warp prisms and move it as an upgrade on robotics bay for 100/100. - Increase the power-radius of warp prism by 1. (optional) Summary: I believe the warp prism is already an incredibly strong protoss unit alone with the 6-range pickup. By making the 5-second warpin an upgrade, protoss timings will be easier to identify and respond to without sacrificing gateway unit strength or the aesethetic aspect of warp-tech for warp prisms. ________________________________________________________________________ The reason why the adept is open to nerf/changes is that it appears to be very strong offensively versus terran, and there is also an increased tendency of mass-production of adepts versus zerg in pro-level matches. Yet the adept is still a necessary unit for the macro-oriented and defending protoss, so how do we nerf the adept without nerfing it in the earlygame? With the warp prism, terran can not use wall-off or other intelligent responses to deal with the threat of earlygame adepts. The warp prism will simply supply with units like they were supplied from home. Perhaps the problem does not even lie with the adept itself. I believe the warp prism is the invisible grey elephant in the room. So will protoss warp-prism strategies be killed if it has 11 second warp-in? Not quite. If we compare the cross-race drop-based strategies, we see that only protoss is non-committed. nydus worm, overlord drops and medivac drops all require a time-investment and loss of army/supply at another location while being relatively limited. medivac drops require all supply in both medivac and units to perform a big attack, and nydus network requires a lot of investment plus it has a delayed unload timer. The warp prism, however, is simply a 200 mineral unit capable of delivering 0 or 20 supply of units in an instant. If you somehow get scouted, you simply cancel and get a full reimbursement of resources. This is a problem. Not only is the warp-prism technologywise relatively cheaper than the other choices, it also has 6-range pickup with great micro potential. As soon as a warp-in is finished, say 8 adepts, the damage is likely already done. With the cancel ability with full resource return, the ability to warp in from the warp prism is essentially instantaenous. An instantaenous nydus worm that is cheaper in cost and tech, so to speak. Now, I do believe the cancel on warp prism is very interesting and should be kept. It is what differentiates it from other drop options and makes it unique. By making the warp prism warpin at 11 seconds, we can use the cancel mechanic strategically. The result is that protoss will not be able to hit extremely powerful earlygame timings, but in the mid- and lategame he can use it strategically to force units to defend the warpin. With increased warpin range, or even without, we can warp in units outside of static defences and force our opponent to respond to it, perhaps cancelling the warpin if too many units approach the warp prism warpin location. This would be an extremely interesting mechanic and effectively kill very all-in based warp-prism oriented timings attacks that people struggle with, especially adepts in terran versus protoss. Protoss will still perform timing/allin oriented strategies, just without the use of a fast warp-in from warp prisms, unless the upgrade is researched. This can be strong, too, as the adept will not be nerfed, or perhaps we might even see gateway buffs. The difference is that terran/zerg will be able to scout it and respond to it with a greater variety and skill. I think it is time we realize that even with a nerf such as the suggestion above, the warp prism will still be an extremely strong unit with great potential. Protoss will, at least in the earlygame, rely on proxied pylons or warpins from home to rally to execute attacks. This is absolutely fine. This is what the other races do. As we approach the lategame, we can upgrade the warp prism to get fast warpins so that it becomes a more serious threat in the mid- and lategame that you then can have the right tools to respond to as the defending play. The warp tech has always been criticized due to the lacking reinforcement thus no defenders advantage, and the combined pylon warpin nerf and now warp prism warpin nerf would fully realize the potential for protoss to become more even with the other races in terms of reinforcements and ground army strength but also keep the cool aesthetic aspect of the warp gate mechanic. As soon as the test-map goes live I will try to arrange high-level matches just to test the changes. It is an important patch that requires attention. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
Imagine if for balance reasons it would be better to tag the ultralisk as unarmored light units... It would be very weird. Also there are many reasons already listed to explain why armored adepts is a bad idea. I think they should change the cost of the adept to 75/50 from 100/25. 25 mineral less, 25 more gaz. This would allow protoss players to still play adepts like before but they won't be able to transition on many different things in the same time like oracles. Most of the time adepts push don't straight up kill the opponent but put him behind in tech/economy. Also this change would give the zealot a bigger importance in most match up i think because instead of only making adepts to harass it might be good to spend some on adepts and some on zealots in order to save some gaz for others things. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On December 22 2015 22:30 FireCake wrote: I think it's very bad to change the armor of a unit for balance purposes. Imagine if for balance reasons it would be better to tag the ultralisk as unarmored light units... It would be very weird. Also there are many reasons already listed to explain why armored adepts is a bad idea. I think they should change the cost of the adept to 75/50 from 100/25. 25 mineral less, 25 more gaz. This would allow protoss players to still play adepts like before but they won't be able to transition on many different things in the same time like oracles. Most of the time adepts push don't straight up kill the opponent but put him behind in tech/economy. Also this change would give the zealot a bigger importance in most match up i think because instead of only making adepts to harass it might be good to spend some on adepts and some on zealots in order to save some gaz for others things. The problem is that it's almost guaranteed damage. It always gets you ahead against terran, except you screw up. That's something that is as dumb as nydus all ins. There shouldn't be any strategies etc that guarantee something if you execute it correctly, regardless of what the opponent is doing. Adept and to a (slightly) lesser extend the current nydus both do that. Not sure if this change is the solution, but i certainly think it could be. | ||
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Elentos
55466 Posts
On December 22 2015 22:58 m4ini wrote: The problem is that it's almost guaranteed damage. It always gets you ahead against terran, except you screw up. That's something that is as dumb as nydus all ins. There shouldn't be any strategies etc that guarantee something if you execute it correctly, regardless of what the opponent is doing. Adept and to a (slightly) lesser extend the current nydus both do that. Not sure if this change is the solution, but i certainly think it could be. I think something else should be done to fix the "It's always damage" aspect to the adept/warp prism combo. I think they end up becoming too bad against marauders starting in the midgame when they're armored. The consequence of that would be that TvP compositions would have to be more zealot heavy (since they're the only thing from the gateway that doesn't suck against marauders) but zealots are useless without charge in an actual fight against stimmed bio. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7199 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 22 2015 23:02 Elentos wrote: I think something else should be done to fix the "It's always damage" aspect to the adept/warp prism combo. I think they end up becoming too bad against marauders starting in the midgame when they're armored. The consequence of that would be that TvP compositions would have to be more zealot heavy (since they're the only thing from the gateway that doesn't suck against marauders) but zealots are useless without charge in an actual fight against stimmed bio. I think it's really worth taking note of how popular mixing in a handful of tanks is in TvP right now as well. Tanks wreck stalkers and with enough marines as a buffer between the Immortals and tanks, I don't really see Protoss holding a three tank midgame push consistently if the tanks can slaughter the Adepts. As far as Zealots, a handful of widow mines can take care of them in the later midgame. Regardless, as you say Marauders will wreck any midgame Protoss army. Immortals and Colossus are weaker than HotS. Protoss won't have anything to stop them being overrun by bio timings. Especially since Terran will defend more easily in the early game and have stronger pushes with this change. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
If zealots have charge, and the terran doesn't have combat shields, conc shells and stim, the terran army just melts. But it's kind of a "no-argument", you always go charge if you go zealot heavy, the same way you always have stim if you go bio. I also disagree alot with the idea that protoss needs to counter everything by just building warpgates. Bio isn't played by purely barracks either. The armor change is also the only change to adept that doesn't touch ZvP at all. Every other change, like warp prism changes etc will touch ZvP as well. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 22 2015 23:15 m4ini wrote: Not to be rude, but since you're doing it again (our last discussion you had the same problem) - you're stating that zealots against a stimmed army are useless. What kind of assumption is that? If zealots have charge, and the terran doesn't have combat shields, conc shells and stim, the terran army just melts. But it's kind of a "no-argument", you always go charge if you go zealot heavy, the same way you always have stim if you go bio. I also disagree alot with the idea that protoss needs to counter everything by just building warpgates. Bio isn't played by purely barracks either. The armor change is also the only change to adept that doesn't touch ZvP at all. Every other change, like warp prism changes etc will touch ZvP as well. During beta a few people suggested changing the Adept damage to +12 vs. light. That way they kill Marines and SCVs in 3 hits but still kill lings and drones in 2. Sounds like it'd be worth trying at the very least. Won't change their effectiveness vs. marines with combat shields either, so it probably wouldn't weaken their midgame too much. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On December 22 2015 23:21 Bohemond wrote: During beta a few people suggested changing the Adept damage to +12 vs. light. That way they kill Marines and SCVs in 3 hits but still kill lings and drones in 2. Sounds like it'd be worth trying at the very least. Won't change their effectiveness vs. marines with combat shields either, so it probably wouldn't weaken their midgame too much. Not too bad of an idea, didn't follow beta discussions so i didn't know about it. Certainly could be a solution as well. That doesn't mean that the armor change shouldn't be tested though, as long as it is on a testmap. edit: you're right though, could be a better solution - it's the early game where they're ridiculous, not mid/endgame. That change seems smarter. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 22 2015 23:24 m4ini wrote: Not too bad of an idea, didn't follow beta discussions so i didn't know about it. Certainly could be a solution as well. That doesn't mean that the armor change shouldn't be tested though, as long as it is on a testmap. I'd say that the armor change is dumb enough that it doesn't need to be tested. It's not DT speed buff stupid, but it's pretty bad. Marauder heavy comps backed up by mines will be hellish for Protoss to deal with. Edit: I think it was a pro's idea to do +12 vs. light, can't remember who though. Wish I could give credit, since I think it's the right band-aid for this dumb unit. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 22 2015 23:29 m4ini wrote: Nah. Shade speed is fine. Imho. The "dual-pressure" is part of the appeal of the adept, if you can outrun the shade with all units, it's kind of pointless to have shade in the first place. I disagree tbh. If we look at problem 1 of toss, it is that shades are just stupid at how fast they slaughter (especially terran) mineral lines. This is however not just because of its damage (which is good), but largely because of its shade ability and the warp prism which is stupid. Imo you might even make the shade faster, but then make it uncancellable. Or make it slower. Or what I read here before and I like, make shade an ability of the adept itself, so it turns into a shade temporarily which is a faster, unkillable version of itself, but not one which is in two locations at once. This stupid part where you need to defend two locations against a really effective unit doesn't work. Problem two is the photon overcharge, which is just a bad mechanism. This is however needed because protoss defense isn't very strong. Partially due to for example warpins, so they can't be too strong since they can just in few seconds warp in a complete round of units in your base. However in addition, the adept can't really use its shade during defense. So if you nerf in whatever way you want their shade, you can boost their stats so they are more useful in defense without being as good in wrecking mineral lines. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Marauder good vs. both stalker & adapts seems bad. Banelings vs. adapts could stay an alternative. (Variety is important for SC2 at this point or ppl get bored again and move on). Adepts being light units in their appearance actually makes sense. Tanks with bonus damage against shields makes sense to me but probably that would factor in too late. What about this new terran ground unit? Can this somehow be enabled to counter adepts? | ||
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