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On December 23 2015 03:07 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 14:46 p68 wrote:On December 22 2015 12:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
This is bad, bad idea.
Terran is already winning slightly more than 50% in the matchup according to Aligulac. Please stop repeating the Aligulac stats that are only through November currently, and LOTV launched November 10. From the small tournament sample size we do have, it's clear that Terran's having major issues in TvP, and players like Polt have echoed this. December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out very soon. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Look at the Dreamhack tournament results, there was 27 PvTs. Protoss won 14, Terran won 13. It doesn't get any closer than that. The stats simply don't pan out a huge Protoss advantage, and therefore any Adept nerf should be accompanied with a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran somewhere else or we risk imbalancing the matchup. That is how balance works. You take weight off one side, and you need to take weight off the other or the scale isn't balanced.Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't care about this, never has. Khaydarin Amulet was removed when PvT was literally 50/50, and Protoss go no other buff to compensate, and the Protoss winrate went in the toilet. This could very well be a repeat performance.
That is only true when the game is figured out. At this point there are many things to explore and try out.
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On December 23 2015 03:17 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 22 2015 14:46 p68 wrote:On December 22 2015 12:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
This is bad, bad idea.
Terran is already winning slightly more than 50% in the matchup according to Aligulac. Please stop repeating the Aligulac stats that are only through November currently, and LOTV launched November 10. From the small tournament sample size we do have, it's clear that Terran's having major issues in TvP, and players like Polt have echoed this. Well December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am to say that TvP is Terran favored. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Didn't a whole bunch of korean protoss say adepts are too strong? I thought there was quite a bit of consensus about TvP early game. And calling it balance whine doesn't make the complaints untrue or contribute anything. It's just an attempt to make a group of people appear immature rather than discuss the real issues. It's kinda like the SC2 version of calling people racist/sexist/unpatriotic in political debates
Adepts are too strong. If you read my OP, I agree with that too. The problem, as I said, is that other parts of Protoss are very weak right now and the Adept is compensating. The Disruptor is pretty bad in TvP, the Colossus got nerfed, the Immortal got nerfed, warp ins got nerfed...
The Adept and Pylon Overcharge are keeping Protoss in the game right now, and both are getting hit. When the winrate is 50/50, what do you think is going to happen?
So I don't disagree with an Adept change, it is just that Protoss needs some other kind of buff so we can keep the winrate where it is.
On December 23 2015 03:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 22 2015 14:46 p68 wrote:On December 22 2015 12:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
This is bad, bad idea.
Terran is already winning slightly more than 50% in the matchup according to Aligulac. Please stop repeating the Aligulac stats that are only through November currently, and LOTV launched November 10. From the small tournament sample size we do have, it's clear that Terran's having major issues in TvP, and players like Polt have echoed this. December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out very soon. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Look at the Dreamhack tournament results, there was 27 PvTs. Protoss won 14, Terran won 13. It doesn't get any closer than that. The stats simply don't pan out a huge Protoss advantage, and therefore any Adept nerf should be accompanied with a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran somewhere else or we risk imbalancing the matchup. That is how balance works. You take weight off one side, and you need to take weight off the other or the scale isn't balanced.Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't care about this, never has. Khaydarin Amulet was removed when PvT was literally 50/50, and Protoss go no other buff to compensate, and the Protoss winrate went in the toilet. This could very well be a repeat performance. That is only true when the game is figured out. At this point there are many things to explore and try out.
So what you're telling me is that instead of looking at what is actually happening in reality right now, you'd rather balance the game on what might happen in the future? Or rather, perhaps not do anything, because things might change in the future?
That argument has always been invalid and is just plain dumb. Blizzard used to justify the existence of the 4 Gate and 1-1-1 for so long. And just think about applying that logic to world hunger... "well people are starving right now, but we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, so why feed them today?"
We only know what we know, and we can only control what we know. So let's control what we know, rather than say "well we can't control what we don't know, so we shouldn't control what we do know." Just screams ignorance.
And it was always the argument for why Mech didn't need a buff. People just hadn't figured it out yet...
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On December 23 2015 00:51 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 00:41 Foxxan wrote:I want to see this tested. Would make early tech in tvp work out well which is needed since now u need to add tons of bio early on incase protoss does a big warpin attack of adepts. Siegetanks, marauders. Opens up factory. Marauder heavy comps backed up by mines will be hellish for Protoss to deal with. Which is complete bullshit btw. Heard of the new protoss unit??? You think that Disruptors are so strong vs. MMM that Protoss won't have a hard time dealing with bio timing attacks if they no longer can use Adepts? Think of how many Adepts are used in Protoss midgame comps. They don't load up their army with the damn thing because they kinda feel like building it and it's a Wednesday. This change would be a huge nerf to Adepts in TvP, more than doubling Marauder DPS against them. Imagine if Stalkers weren't armored, think how strong they'd suddenly be against Terran bio compared to how they are now.
You mentioned NOTHING about timing attacks before. You said specificially that the unit composition was the hard part.
Stick to the point!
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On December 23 2015 03:20 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:17 Bohemond wrote:On December 23 2015 03:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 22 2015 14:46 p68 wrote:On December 22 2015 12:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
This is bad, bad idea.
Terran is already winning slightly more than 50% in the matchup according to Aligulac. Please stop repeating the Aligulac stats that are only through November currently, and LOTV launched November 10. From the small tournament sample size we do have, it's clear that Terran's having major issues in TvP, and players like Polt have echoed this. Well December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am to say that TvP is Terran favored. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Didn't a whole bunch of korean protoss say adepts are too strong? I thought there was quite a bit of consensus about TvP early game. And calling it balance whine doesn't make the complaints untrue or contribute anything. It's just an attempt to make a group of people appear immature rather than discuss the real issues. It's kinda like the SC2 version of calling people racist/sexist/unpatriotic in political debates Adepts are too strong. If you read my OP, I agree with that too. The problem, as I said, is that other parts of Protoss are very weak right now and the Adept is compensating. The Disruptor is pretty bad in TvP, the Colossus got nerfed, the Immortal got nerfed, warp ins got nerfed... The Adept and Pylon Overcharge are keeping Protoss in the game right now, and both are getting hit. When the winrate is 50/50, what do you think is going to happen?So I don't disagree with an Adept change, it is just that Protoss needs some other kind of buff so we can keep the winrate where it is. Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 23 2015 03:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 22 2015 14:46 p68 wrote:On December 22 2015 12:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
This is bad, bad idea.
Terran is already winning slightly more than 50% in the matchup according to Aligulac. Please stop repeating the Aligulac stats that are only through November currently, and LOTV launched November 10. From the small tournament sample size we do have, it's clear that Terran's having major issues in TvP, and players like Polt have echoed this. December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out very soon. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Look at the Dreamhack tournament results, there was 27 PvTs. Protoss won 14, Terran won 13. It doesn't get any closer than that. The stats simply don't pan out a huge Protoss advantage, and therefore any Adept nerf should be accompanied with a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran somewhere else or we risk imbalancing the matchup. That is how balance works. You take weight off one side, and you need to take weight off the other or the scale isn't balanced.Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't care about this, never has. Khaydarin Amulet was removed when PvT was literally 50/50, and Protoss go no other buff to compensate, and the Protoss winrate went in the toilet. This could very well be a repeat performance. That is only true when the game is figured out. At this point there are many things to explore and try out. So what you're telling me is that instead of looking at what is actually happening in reality right now, you'd rather balance the game on what might happen in the future. That argument has always been invalid. Blizzard used to justify the existence of the 4 Gate and 1-1-1 for so long. And it was always the argument for why Mech didn't need a buff. People just hadn't figured it out yet...
No, you are saying that. I'm saying the opposite. Adepts are broken vs Terran right now and they have to be fixed. There is a huge amount to explore with P play, same with T and Z, and expecting P to find alternate solutions is very much reasonable at this point.
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO.
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On December 23 2015 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO.
I don't think you understand the definition of balance.
Look at the Dreamhack tournament results, there was 27 PvTs. Protoss won 14, Terran won 13. It doesn't get any closer than that. The stats simply don't pan out a huge Protoss advantage, and therefore any Adept nerf should be accompanied with a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran somewhere else or we risk imbalancing the matchup.
I'm not saying the Adept isn't too strong, I'm saying that it wouldn't have been 14-13 (as close as possible) if Adepts were armored, and then you have a balance problem, which doesn't exist right now.
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A nerf I'd like to see for the adept is that shade canceling could only happen during the first half of its duration. That would require players to focus on their adepts more while making it so the opposing player doesnt have to follow the shades only for them to cancel after full duration
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On December 23 2015 03:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
And it was always the argument for why Mech didn't need a buff. People just hadn't figured it out yet...
Right, now i can't tell if you're just trolling or not. Mech play had the entire of WOL and HOTS to be shown as viable or not, and you compare it to one month of LOTV of one strat being proven to be to strong?
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On December 23 2015 03:29 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO. I don't think you understand the definition of balance.
I'm not sure you understand anything TBH. To each his own though.
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On December 23 2015 03:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
And it was always the argument for why Mech didn't need a buff. People just hadn't figured it out yet... Right, now i can't tell if you're just trolling or not. Mech play had the entire of WOL and HOTS to be shown as viable or not, and you compare it to one month of LOTV of one strat being proven to be to strong?
Well I lived through all of WOL and HOTS, and people complained about Mech quite early in WOL when the maps began getting bigger, and people like you kept saying "you just need to figure it out" and then.... nothing. Years went by.
Just like the 4 Gate or 1-1-1, "people just need to figure it out" and then.... nothing. Months went by.
On December 23 2015 03:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2015 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO. I don't think you understand the definition of balance. I'm not sure you understand anything TBH. To each his own though.
Then don't listen to me, listen to the dictionary and the results from Dreamhack.
[bal-uh ns]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/balance?s=t
Look at the Dreamhack tournament results, there was 27 PvTs. Protoss won 14, Terran won 13. That is, by definition of the word balance, as balanced as it gets with 27 games. There is an equal distribution (as close as possible with 27 games) of wins on both sides. And the Aligulac stats show the same thing.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DreamHack_ROCCAT_LotV_Championship
Thus by definition, you are not fighting for balance, you are fighting against it because PvT is balanced.
Any Adept nerf should be accompanied by a Protoss buff or Terran nerf.
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On December 23 2015 03:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 00:51 Bohemond wrote:On December 23 2015 00:41 Foxxan wrote:I want to see this tested. Would make early tech in tvp work out well which is needed since now u need to add tons of bio early on incase protoss does a big warpin attack of adepts. Siegetanks, marauders. Opens up factory. Marauder heavy comps backed up by mines will be hellish for Protoss to deal with. Which is complete bullshit btw. Heard of the new protoss unit??? You think that Disruptors are so strong vs. MMM that Protoss won't have a hard time dealing with bio timing attacks if they no longer can use Adepts? Think of how many Adepts are used in Protoss midgame comps. They don't load up their army with the damn thing because they kinda feel like building it and it's a Wednesday. This change would be a huge nerf to Adepts in TvP, more than doubling Marauder DPS against them. Imagine if Stalkers weren't armored, think how strong they'd suddenly be against Terran bio compared to how they are now. You mentioned NOTHING about timing attacks before. You said specificially that the unit composition was the hard part. Stick to the point!
Are you suggesting that timing attacks don't have a composition of units? Any timing attack will contain units in a combination. I said that it'd be hellish for Protoss to deal with marauder heavy comps if this change goes through (which it won't, since it will break the game). Shockingly, that statement includes timing attacks with marauders, since a timing attack with lots of marauders will be a marauder heavy comp.
Are you actually not capable of understanding that or are you trolling? Marauders would slaughter the Protoss army which, without adepts, would be weaker than it was in HotS.
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On December 23 2015 03:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2015 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO. I don't think you understand the definition of balance. I'm not sure you understand anything TBH. To each his own though.
If the argument is that the matchup is imbalanced, but the stats shows its balanced--then the matchup is not imbalanced. If the argument is that you are personally annoyed by the game play, then say you are personally annoyed by the gameplay and that its not about balance at all.
Words have meanings, to each his own--but use accurate words to describe your opinions.
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you guys argue about two different things, balance as in 50/50 and balance as in "this and this unit is imbalanced" which leads to bs plays like "don't let xxx get there" or "x race wins with a y all in or z race wins with w all in.
And I bet you both agree that the warp prism adept play is one of those bs strats. Problem is, apart from that protoss doesn't have a lot of other viable strategies.
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I also think the Warp Prism Adept is a BS strat and both sides have abusive strategies and units. The Adept is too strong too, and you make great point saying that Protoss doesn't have a lot of other viable strategies, and that is the real problem with Protoss.
Early game Adept wins are inflating the Protoss win rate, and since PvT is 50/50 right now, it means Protoss is really going to suffer if the Adept is nerfed.
So as I've been saying, an Adept nerf should be accompanied by a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran to keep things even. I'm not saying the Adept shouldn't nerfed, it should.
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On December 23 2015 03:35 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 23 2015 03:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2015 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO. I don't think you understand the definition of balance. I'm not sure you understand anything TBH. To each his own though. If the argument is that the matchup is imbalanced, but the stats shows its balanced--then the matchup is not imbalanced. If the argument is that you are personally annoyed by the game play, then say you are personally annoyed by the gameplay and that its not about balance at all. Words have meanings, to each his own--but use accurate words to describe your opinions.
The MU can be reasonably balanced when you have "broken" strats by confining, in this case the T player, to only one build, else they die to the broken strat. This is very bad for the game. We've seen it with blue flame, with the infestor, KA, etc.
The game is very new so it's silly to say that without this Adept stuff being so strong, P is gona end up UP. You just can't know that. Unless you think you know everything Protoss in LOTV and if so, you are wrong 
This is how it always works in such a complicated game like SC. You can take something out and other stuff develops. If say P turns out to be bad vs Terran, then you change other stuff where appropriate, in the spirit of balance AND healthy gameplay.
The argument that in DH Protoss won 14, Terran won 13 and without the Adept Terran would have won much more is wrong because you don't know what other stuff Protoss would have worked on instead. Maybe there is a strat there that is 10 time stronger and without the Adept, Protoss would have had 100%win rate.
You can only fix the problems that you see, not what you imagine. Adepts are a problem and they get fixed, it's as simple as that.
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So as I've been saying, an Adept nerf should be accompanied by a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran to keep things even. I'm not saying the Adept shouldn't nerfed, it should.
Lol.. There's nothing even. We don't even know how stuff plays out properly, because everything evolves around adepts at the moment.
Apart from the obvious notion that terran nerfs are pretty much out of the question, but feel free to look at DH stats (the ones you cited), and tell me what you nerf for terran that doesn't make TvZ even worse.
edit: not to mention that partings archon/zealot timing already plays completely without adepts, as a sidenote.
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Need a new Medium Armour type that takes half +vs armoured damage and half +vs light damage. Would really help differentiate the Adept from both the Stalker and the Zealot. Before it took a lot of the Zealot spot light, except when you have Charge and I guess now it will steal all the Stalker spot light, except when you have Blink.
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On December 23 2015 03:50 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:35 Naracs_Duc wrote:On December 23 2015 03:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 23 2015 03:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2015 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Balance at this point is making sure there are no BS strats going around. Adepts vs Terran is one. So is the nydus IMO. I don't think you understand the definition of balance. I'm not sure you understand anything TBH. To each his own though. If the argument is that the matchup is imbalanced, but the stats shows its balanced--then the matchup is not imbalanced. If the argument is that you are personally annoyed by the game play, then say you are personally annoyed by the gameplay and that its not about balance at all. Words have meanings, to each his own--but use accurate words to describe your opinions. The MU can be reasonably balanced when you have "broken" strats by confining, in this case the T player, to only one build, else they die to the broken strat. This is very bad for the game. We've seen it with blue flame, with the infestor, KA, etc. The game is very new so it's silly to say that without this Adept stuff being so strong, P is gona end up UP. You just can't know that. Unless you think you know everything Protoss in LOTV and if so, you are wrong This is how it always works in such a complicated game like SC. You can take something out and other stuff develops. If say P turns out to be bad vs Terran, then you change other stuff where appropriate, in the spirit of balance AND healthy gameplay. The argument that in DH Protoss won 14, Terran won 13 and without the Adept Terran would have won much more is wrong because you don't know what other stuff Protoss would have worked on instead. Maybe there is a strat there that is 10 time stronger and without the Adept, Protoss would have had 100%win rate. You can only fix the problems that you see, not what you imagine. Adepts are a problem and they get fixed, it's as simple as that.
Thank you
I agree with almost everything (My biggest disagreement being Blueflame and KA nerfs) but I think we are definitely close enough to warrant it be agreeing.
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Good to see that the Adept nerf is finally incoming. Less Protoss bullshit on ladder will result from this. If after a while the stats are showing that without OP early game Adepts that Protoss is too weak then Blizzard can look at strengthening something else to compensate.
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On December 23 2015 05:51 DeadByDawn wrote:
Good to see that the Adept nerf is finally incoming. Less Protoss bullshit on ladder will result from this. If after a while the stats are showing that without OP early game Adepts that Protoss is too weak then Blizzard can look at strengthening something else to compensate.
There are two ways to balance a scale. One way is to remove pieces on one side, the other is to add pieces on the opposing side.
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EPT
