EPTThis week's balance test map - Page 6
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
I disagree tbh. If we look at problem 1 of toss, it is that shades are just stupid at how fast they slaughter (especially terran) mineral lines. This is however not just because of its damage (which is good), but largely because of its shade ability and the warp prism which is stupid. Shade has pretty much no impact on how they interact with terran mineral lines. Wall in prevents decent shade "jukes", you can't go from one to the other base by shade. | ||
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p68
100 Posts
If Blizzard simply wants Terran ground to work more like Protoss ground, where it's gateway units + robo support, then they need to make up their minds already. We love the asymmetry of Starcraft, but asymmetry in this case renders much of the Terran arsenal nderused, if not, completely unused. Design-wise, Terran ground is fragmented by upgrades (very important note, particularly because the short nature of games in LOTV), and even if they weren't, only 2/5 factory units mesh well with bio gameplay (widow mines and now, the tankivac). | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Siegetanks, marauders. Opens up factory. Marauder heavy comps backed up by mines will be hellish for Protoss to deal with. Which is complete bullshit btw. Heard of the new protoss unit??? | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 23 2015 00:41 Foxxan wrote: I want to see this tested. Would make early tech in tvp work out well which is needed since now u need to add tons of bio early on incase protoss does a big warpin attack of adepts. Siegetanks, marauders. Opens up factory. Which is complete bullshit btw. Heard of the new protoss unit??? You think that Disruptors are so strong vs. MMM that Protoss won't have a hard time dealing with bio timing attacks if they no longer can use Adepts? Think of how many Adepts are used in Protoss midgame comps. They don't load up their army with the damn thing because they kinda feel like building it and it's a Wednesday. This change would be a huge nerf to Adepts in TvP, more than doubling Marauder DPS against them. Imagine if Stalkers weren't armored, think how strong they'd suddenly be against Terran bio compared to how they are now. Zetter wrote: The new protoss unit has awful synergy with chargelots, which will be the main part of protoss compositions. And we all know how hard it is for Terran to deal with chargelot heavy comps. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Widow_Mine_(Legacy_of_the_Void) | ||
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Zetter
Germany629 Posts
On December 23 2015 00:41 Foxxan wrote: I want to see this tested. Would make early tech in tvp work out well which is needed since now u need to add tons of bio early on incase protoss does a big warpin attack of adepts. Siegetanks, marauders. Opens up factory. Which is complete bullshit btw. Heard of the new protoss unit??? The new protoss unit has awful synergy with chargelots, which will be the main part of protoss compositions. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Yes I know T and Z have no shields lol. The point is that dealing less friendly damage to your own units is a rather nice buff. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
On December 23 2015 01:06 Salteador Neo wrote: I find it weird that nobody has brought up this about the removal of the disruptors bonus damage against shields: Is it a "hidden buff" for PvT and PvZ? The disruptor shots should deal less friendly damage to friendly units (and the disruptor itself) whenever they need to kill stuff that is in their melee range. Or am I missing something? no "hidden buff" for Z and T because they dont have shield armor... yes less friendly damage but main factor is to deny dodgeball fights. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On December 23 2015 01:33 Nazara wrote: Terrible change. Much rather I would see increase in scv' hp so theyre not 2 shot anymore or lowering pick up range and increasing warp-in time for warp prism (while giving it back as an upgrade). scvs already have a lot of health, but maybe the attack could be lowered so that it doesn't 2 shot scvs and marines. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 23 2015 01:33 Nazara wrote: Terrible change. Much rather I would see increase in scv' hp so theyre not 2 shot anymore or lowering pick up range and increasing warp-in time for warp prism (while giving it back as an upgrade). While I don't like it either, your change is worse. The issue is Adepts, changing SCVs means they are stronger vs all harass, so you need to change all other harass units to compensate. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On December 23 2015 01:45 [PkF] Wire wrote: scvs already have a lot of health, but maybe the attack could be lowered so that it doesn't 2 shot scvs and marines. They have had enough chances to change that fact (during these phases of nerf, buff and now nerf again) and they haven't, so I don't think they ever will. I feel the shade ability and the fact that it 2 shots workers and marines are the "core" points of the unit. And I agree with them. Also if it 3 shooted marines I think it would be just bad against terran tbh. Would add huge overkill and the rate of fire is so slow. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On December 23 2015 01:57 Sissors wrote: putting It at 47 or 48 t doesn't change anything against hellion, banshee, zealot or the Oracle. The only units affected that you would think about using as a harass is mutas and lings, unless I missed something.While I don't like it either, your change is worse. The issue is Adepts, changing SCVs means they are stronger vs all harass, so you need to change all other harass units to compensate. And yes the issue is adepts, including adepts vs workers. Nerfing adepts attack is not the solution, the unit doesn't scale that well into mid-late game. Unless you give it an extra upgrade. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 23 2015 02:39 Nazara wrote: putting It at 47 or 48 t doesn't change anything against hellion, banshee, zealot or the Oracle. The only units affected that you would think about using as a harass is mutas and lings, unless I missed something. And yes the issue is adepts, including adepts vs workers. Nerfing adepts attack is not the solution, the unit doesn't scale that well into mid-late game. Unless you give it an extra upgrade. If their attack was changed 10+12, they'd 3 shot workers and marines in the early game, and two shot them as soon as the Protoss gets +1 attack (they'd go from 22 a shot to 24, so even if the Terran is even on upgrades with +1 armor, it's still 2 hits). If their mid/late is too weak due to this change, make their upgrade something like +50% instead of +45%. This would make them slightly better against non-light units as well. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bohemond wrote: If their mid/late is too weak due to this change, make their upgrade something like +50% instead of +45%. This would make them slightly better against non-light units as well. Or make them scale better with upgrades | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On December 22 2015 14:46 p68 wrote: Please stop repeating the Aligulac stats that are only through November currently, and LOTV launched November 10. From the small tournament sample size we do have, it's clear that Terran's having major issues in TvP, and players like Polt have echoed this. December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out very soon. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Look at the Dreamhack tournament results, there was 27 PvTs. Protoss won 14, Terran won 13. It doesn't get any closer than that. The stats simply don't pan out a huge Protoss advantage, and therefore any Adept nerf should be accompanied with a buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran somewhere else or we risk imbalancing the matchup. That is how balance works. You take weight off one side, and you need to take weight off the other or the scale isn't balanced. Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't care about this, never has. Khaydarin Amulet was removed (and should have been) when PvT was literally 50/50, and Protoss go no other buff to compensate, and the Protoss winrate went in the toilet. This could very well be a repeat performance. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 23 2015 03:07 BronzeKnee wrote: Well December stats come out in early January, so we'll see how it pans out. Unless you have some inside knowledge, you're completely guessing and being even more ignorant than I am to say that TvP is Terran favored. My guess is based on 1 month old stats, yours is based on balance whine from Terran players. Didn't a whole bunch of korean protoss say adepts are too strong? I thought there was quite a bit of consensus about TvP early game in the korean scene? And calling it balance whine doesn't make the complaints untrue or contribute anything. It's just an attempt to make a group of people appear immature rather than discuss the real issues. It's kinda like the SC2 version of calling people racist/sexist/unpatriotic in political debates | ||
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