EPTI don't think it is a lack of effort, rather a lack of education.
This week's balance test map - Page 12
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
I don't think it is a lack of effort, rather a lack of education. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On December 27 2015 01:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Yeah, but Hellbats > Zealots? See the problem with that kind of simple thinking? Zealots fell out of favor in HOTS in the early game because you needed detection versus Widow Mines and because Zealots are terrible versus Widow Mines. Widow Mine/Liberator/Marauder is going to be awfully difficult to stop if Zealots are going to be the counter to Marauders. And that is without any Hellbats mixed in. WTF? PPL say Marauders -> protoss. So i say Zealots -> marauders. Even with a questionmark. Please add something to the discussion instead of saying shit that has been said 100 times before. Also u mentioned NOTHING about the disruptor. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
Okay, well then there's nothing I can do for you. Have a nice day. I guess they don't cover arithmetic where you go to school. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On December 27 2015 01:50 Foxxan wrote: WTF? PPL say Marauders -> protoss. So i say Zealots -> marauders. Even with a questionmark. Please add something to the discussion instead of saying shit that has been said 100 times before. Also u mentioned NOTHING about the disruptor. And you mentioned nothing about the SCV... so TAKE THAT... But seriously, my point was simply that stating Zealots > Marauders or Hellbats > Zealots isn't an argument for why Adepts should be armored or not. Zealots > Marauders been said thousands of times, so I believe it is you who isn't adding to this discussion. Disruptors have nothing to do Adepts and the armored tag either. And if you played PvT you'd understand how bad Disruptors are versus Terran, because they can just pickup, boost and run. You want a good reason why Adepts shouldn't be armored? Because it is nerf to Adepts and PvT is close to 50/50 right now in terms of balance (Terran even has the edge) : http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ If Adepts were so strong, wouldn't Protoss be crushing Terran in terms of win rate? That being said, I think Adepts and Warp Prisms are a bit too strong versus Terran (like I think Widow Mines are a bit too strong versus Protoss), but any Protoss nerf to Adepts should be accompanied by a buff somewhere else to maintain the winrate balance. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway275 Posts
On December 24 2015 03:40 BronzeKnee wrote: We can't go back to the old ways. Forcefields were good versus Terrans who moved out without Medivacs, and Terrans wait for Medivacs now. That also means Liberators are on the field. This change is just bad though. Protoss will still have to rely heavily on Adepts but Marauder/Liberator/Viking is going to be very difficult to stop. I need to go find out how Marauders stack up against Immortals with the change to their attack and change to Immortal's shields. Adepts, especially in conjunction with Warp Prisms are too strong. But instead of this terrible change, the Shade ability should have a higher cooldown and maybe more of the attack speed should be moved to the upgrade. terran waits for medivacs now, and that means liberators are on field? What??? ppl normaly at least make 6 medivacs before even makin liberators. if the terran are so stupid and move out whit 2 medivacs ( cant really do that cause adepts warp prism) The 3-4 pylons will crush it. | ||
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Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
On December 27 2015 01:50 Foxxan wrote: WTF? PPL say Marauders -> protoss. So i say Zealots -> marauders. Even with a questionmark. Please add something to the discussion instead of saying shit that has been said 100 times before. Also u mentioned NOTHING about the disruptor. Lets be honest here, even with charge other than the initial hit zealots are just a meatshield because marauders can kite them forever with stim and concussive shell, while the stalkers and immortals behind struggle to catch up. Without charge zealots are just meatshields, nothing else. Protoss army until T2 cannot deal enough damage in time to beat terran bio (especially with medivac support), which forces them to rush to T3 for aoe damage every single game. Adept was supposed to help protoss deal with midgame pressure so that they aren't as reliant as AOE in order to survive terran mid game timings, and give stability to protoss play so that they can rely less on gimmicks (2base all-ins, etc). Its light armored, rather high health, cheap and deals massive damage to light units. It can act as a front line meatshield and actually dish out decent damage against the marines in the bioball. Its just that in this state their harrassment is rather too ridiculous. I personally do not think changing adept to armored is the way to go. It just makes stimmed marauders (+ medivac support) hard counter to all protoss units until T3, except chargelots which the marauders can kite very well or deal in other ways such as widow mines. Terran can just put more emphasis on marauder production and it will pretty much overwhelm protoss army if they don't have splash damage. I remember reading suggestion to reduce adept bonus damage vs light to +12 instead of +13. I think this is the more reasonable choice here; SCVs take one more hit to die so adepts don't delete SCVs as easily, marines without shield can take one more hit from adepts before dying, while marines with shield (which comes out later) take same amount of hits to die. This way, the harrassment potential of adepts are reduced significantly while not affecting its utility in mid game. Also, it doesn't affect other match ups at all, zerglings and hydralisks take same amount of hits to die, and same goes for zealots, dark templars and high templars. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On December 27 2015 02:09 MiCroLiFe wrote: terran waits for medivacs now, and that means liberators are on field? What??? ppl normaly at least make 6 medivacs before even makin liberators. if the terran are so stupid and move out whit 2 medivacs ( cant really do that cause adepts warp prism) The 3-4 pylons will crush it. Lots of people open with early Liberators for harassment. Then they have Liberators before Medivacs and can move out with both. Lots of Terrans also move out to poke with 2 Medivacs or to drop Widow Mines with one while dropping Marines with the other. My point was to say that if Terran has a Starport with a Reactor, they can build Liberators quite easily, though I didn't make that clear enough, my apologies. But let's pretend what you are saying is completely true, what does your point have to do with Adepts being armored? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On December 27 2015 02:02 BronzeKnee wrote: And you mentioned nothing about the SCV... so TAKE THAT... But seriously, my point was simply that stating Zealots > Marauders or Hellbats > Zealots isn't an argument for why Adepts should be armored or not. Zealots > Marauders been said thousands of times, so I believe it is you who isn't adding to this discussion. Disruptors have nothing to do Adepts and the armored tag either. And if you played PvT you'd understand how bad Disruptors are versus Terran, because they can just pickup, boost and run. You want a good reason why Adepts shouldn't be armored? Because it is nerf to Adepts and PvT is close to 50/50 right now in terms of balance (Terran even has the edge) : http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ If Adepts were so strong, wouldn't Protoss be crushing Terran in terms of win rate? That being said, I think Adepts and Warp Prisms are a bit too strong versus Terran (like I think Widow Mines are a bit too strong versus Protoss), but any Protoss nerf to Adepts should be accompanied by a buff somewhere else to maintain the winrate balance. Why mention terran unit combo without even mentioning the new disruptor for protoss. And how cna that unit suck if terran runs away and leaves liberators, tanks or widowmines left behind. I believe that unit will get better overtime because protooss will imrpove their micro with their armee. If not, i believe blizzard will eventunally patch that unit. Win statistics are pure garbage, please dont bring that crap up. Toss not having to rely on T3 is good, very good. All i think is it will open up more tech paths for terran in the early game and that might make the entire game different cuz of different timings etc. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
We have disruptor vs Liberator Disruptor - extremely high investment into the first ones (600 gas for the first 2) - Easily counter microed in low unit count, and fast unit situations. - terrible at defending multiple locations +extremely powerful splash damage in large unit fights Liberator - No additional investment into the first one, starport is mandatory for terran +requires specific reaction - forces stalkers or air units, can pull them out of position + strongest zoning tool in the game. Especially the first points about the investmentm will give terran a lot of options on timing pushes. Usually at the start of expansions, the meta hasnt settled enough for timings to be figured out. Changes that could be made to the adept, or other gatway units Give them a higher tier upgrade, costing 200/200. Make adept shade cooldown higher something along those lines | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On December 27 2015 04:01 BronzeKnee wrote: This test map nerfs the two biggest buffs Protoss got: Adepts and Pylon Overcharge. I'd argue that overall the Disruptor is a nerf because Colossus damage was nerfed, and the Colossus was a much more consistent damage dealer. If those changes go through, then Protoss will suffer even more in non-mirrors, as Protoss is under a 50% winrate in both non-mirrors already. I have barely played LotV. Can you please tell me how colossus damage was nerfed? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus_(Legacy_of_the_Void) | ||
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Clipped
France122 Posts
On December 27 2015 04:01 BronzeKnee wrote:then Protoss will suffer even more in non-mirrors, as Protoss is under a 50% winrate in both non-mirrors already. Not true, PvT is 55-45 and while PvZ is pretty bad a lot of it is due to the three terrible maps (lerrilak, prion terraces and central protocol).SSL 2016 did not use the three named map GSL pre-season | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On December 27 2015 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote: In LotV its base damage is reduced by 20%. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus_(Legacy_of_the_Void) A fully upgraded Collosus now deals 30 damage (15 per beam) instead of its previous 42 damage, because not only its base damage was reduced but also how much damage bonus it gets per upgrade. That is more then 20% reduction. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
Adept shades can no longer path through other units. Tah dah! All sources of adept stupidity have been removed  . | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
What does hull mean? And what does shield mean? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On December 27 2015 06:06 Qwyn wrote: I've got a great adept nerf for you. Won't require any other changes: Adept shades can no longer path through other units. Tah dah! All sources of adept stupidity have been removed . That is great idea. Alternative maybe just lengthening the cooldown of the shade ability or moving more the attack speed to the upgrade could work. Making them armored feels like Blizzard is taking a sledgehammer to a problem that is best solved with scalpel. On December 27 2015 05:17 Clipped wrote: Not true, PvT is 55-45 and while PvZ is pretty bad a lot of it is due to the three terrible maps (lerrilak, prion terraces and central protocol). SSL 2016 did not use the three named map GSL pre-season If you're going to use Aligulac results, why cherry pick events when you can see it all here: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ And what does that chart say? Protoss has a 49.57% win rate. It will be updated for December at the end of the month and we can track the changes then. But if we are going to cherry pick from December events, Protoss currently has 22% win rate in NationWars III... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NationWars_III Let's wait for everything to be combined before we make inferences that PvT is 55-45. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 27 2015 06:32 Foxxan wrote: What does hull mean? And what does shield mean? Protoss units have shields. Shields don't benefit from armor values, base or otherwise. | ||
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