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On December 18 2015 09:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise. Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience. Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year. The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
Meh, I knew you guys would go back to excuses like that but you can't know what would happen to be honest. The reality is that GSL was not watched more than all other tournaments
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On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
DH not, but IEM yes. I am not interested in watching just the Koreans. I am also not interested to watch just foreigners. When they play together, I always cheer for the foreigner. I hope, he will make it. But if IEMs and DHs will ban foreigners, there will be no reason to watch them.
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On December 18 2015 08:55 JabuSeika wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
Come on, it was foreign money flowing to the best players. There was nothing stopping tournament organizers for setting up region locked tournaments. Now Blizzard is forcing it for them, which is entirely different.
WCS Korea: Come watch the best players from Korea!
WCS America: Come watch the best players from Korea (that decided they didn't stand a chance in Korea)!
WCS Europe: Come watch the best players from Korea (that decided they didn't stand a chance in Korea)!
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On December 18 2015 09:10 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:01 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean. So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money. What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament? It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that. Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time. Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other teams. EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available? If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it. You're hilarious. If blizzard made a move like that I would just stop watching Starcraft altogether.
No. You would just have to learn Korean :-)
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On December 18 2015 09:16 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL DH not, but IEM yes. I am not interested in watching just the Koreans. I am also not interested to watch just foreigners. When they play together, I always cheer for the foreigner. I hope, he will make it. But if IEMs and DHs will ban foreigners, there will be no reason to watch them.
Right now you're saying that but when foreigner will get better and there is no doubt about that, you will change your mind.
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double post, Wi-fi in hotel is not a good time to write TL posts
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On December 18 2015 09:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise. Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience. Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year. The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
I don't have a particular opinion about your position, but your arguments are weak.
You're speculating on what the GSL viewership would be if it were during peak hours. Blizzcon is a poor example since it is sold as the culmination of Starcraft for the entire year, and would naturally have the highest viewership. As for your viewing habits that's purely anecdotal.
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On December 18 2015 09:15 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise. Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience. Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year. The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments. Meh, I knew you guys would go back to excuses like that but you can't know what would happen to be honest. The reality is that GSL was not watched more than all other tournaments
Excuses? Try airing Dreamhack starting at 1 in the morning US time and see how well it does. Go ahead and try and propose the idea you'll be laughed out of the meeting.
The fact that GSL and SSL do as well as they do with Western audiences considering when they're being played is amazing, it speaks volumes to how passionate Starcraft fans actually are that they are willing to stay up or wake up early just to watch those games.
But you want to use the viewership numbers as some half way argument to support why Western players deserve more charity money from Blizzard. Yea ok.
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On December 18 2015 09:19 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:16 Diabolique wrote:On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL DH not, but IEM yes. I am not interested in watching just the Koreans. I am also not interested to watch just foreigners. When they play together, I always cheer for the foreigner. I hope, he will make it. But if IEMs and DHs will ban foreigners, there will be no reason to watch them. Right now you're saying that but when foreigner will get better and there is no doubt about that, you will change your mind.
OK, I only hope, if this happens, they will change the system back to a normal competition.
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On December 18 2015 09:21 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:15 Nerchio wrote:On December 18 2015 09:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise. Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience. Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year. The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments. Meh, I knew you guys would go back to excuses like that but you can't know what would happen to be honest. The reality is that GSL was not watched more than all other tournaments Excuses? Try airing Dreamhack starting at 1 in the morning US time and see how well it does. Go ahead and try and propose the idea you'll be laughed out of the meeting. The fact that GSL and SSL do as well as they do with Western audiences considering when they're being played is amazing, it speaks volumes to how passionate Starcraft fans actually are that they are willing to stay up or wake up early just to watch those games. But you want to use the viewership numbers as some half way argument to support why Western players deserve more charity money from Blizzard. Yea ok.
You guys need to learn how to take part in a discussion T.T I was saying that your argument is not vaild. The viewership was never my argument, it was all you saying that everyone wants to watch Koreans when in fact we can't see it. Blizzcon numbers, really?
What about WCS 2012 season when Stephano won, hehe?
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Not a fan. We will now have lesser skilled players at the end of this huge tournament. If Im gonna spend time watching SC2 instead of some other game then I wanna watch the very best. We won't have this now.
More money is nice but that money will go to someone who shouldn't be there lets be real.
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On December 18 2015 09:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise. Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience. Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year. The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments. I don't have a particular opinion about your position, but your arguments are weak. You're speculating on what the GSL viewership would be if it were during peak hours. Blizzcon is a poor example since it is sold as the culmination of Starcraft for the entire year, and would naturally have the highest viewership. As for your viewing habits that's purely anecdotal.
There's evidence to support my claim.
Take a look back a few years to when GSL and GSTL were played at IPL in Las Vegas. Both events, especially the GSTL finals were some of the highest viewed events of that year, that was the event if you don't remember where we had the infamous Parting vs Marineking regame due to a disconnect.
From what I remember reading at the time, both events' viewership absolutely trumped the viewership that GSL and GSTL finals were normally getting that year. Why? Because they were being played at different times and in front of Western audiences.
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On December 18 2015 09:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote:
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise. Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience. Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year. The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments. I don't have a particular opinion about your position, but your arguments are weak. You're speculating on what the GSL viewership would be if it were during peak hours. Blizzcon is a poor example since it is sold as the culmination of Starcraft for the entire year, and would naturally have the highest viewership. As for your viewing habits that's purely anecdotal.
Saying that IEM/DH pulls in better numbers is no less speculative. AFAIK there is no comprehensive list of a GSL event's viewer numbers across every region and every streaming platform - English twitch stream, English youtube stream, Korean youtube stream, Korean Afreeca stream, and whatever else they may have.
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The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
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So we're having less Korean Starcraft to watch... Am I understanding this correctly?
I'll pray to the Starcraft gods that there are Kespa Cups and such, but honestly with the lower interest in broadcasting it (hello SpoTV) there is... I don't see it happening 
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In total:
- this is great news for all EU/NA players
- this is bad news for the most SC2 fans
- this is bad news for the TOP5 Korean players
- this is catastrophic news for all great Korean players, who do not belong to the TOP5.
So for us fans, let us just hope, IEM will not be WCS Circuit, but WCS Global Event. DreamHack was actually almost a foreign only tournament anyway ... just with a few 2nd level Koreans, who always took the TOP4 places.
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On December 18 2015 09:32 Silvana wrote:So we're having less Korean Starcraft to watch... Am I understanding this correctly? I'll pray to the Starcraft gods that there are Kespa Cups and such, but honestly with the lower interest in broadcasting it (hello SpoTV) there is... I don't see it happening
SSL/GSL interleague tournament sounds like its replacing KeSPA Cups, but with less players
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If foreigners so badly want to have a chance to win then why not just have a 2 league system, like a major and minor league, the koreans and the foreigners then get there own top 16 championship brackets at WCS Finals. This way people can watch the top tier sc2 players and also their foreign heroes.
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On December 18 2015 09:29 Nerchio wrote:
The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
Any foreigner who is on a serious team have the opportunity to go to Korea tomorrow and practice to be the best. You won't become the best by playing on the NA ladder 5 games a day.
Look at some of the best foreign hope through the time. Like Jinro, Huk, Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett etc. They all went to Korea, dedicated themselves and what happened? They got good at the freaking game.
Why do you need the charity help so badly?
I for one am not looking forward with half the bracket being full of foreigners who can't be bothered to practice aka LilBow for the biggest tournament of the year.
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On December 18 2015 09:35 DwD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 09:29 Nerchio wrote:
The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now. Any foreigner who is on a serious team have the opportunity to go to Korea tomorrow and practice to be the best. You won't become the best by playing on the NA ladder 5 games a day. Look at some of the best foreign hope through the time. Like Jinro, Huk, Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett etc. They all went to Korea, dedicated themselves and what happened? They got good at the freaking game. Why do you need the charity help so badly? I for one am not looking forward with half the bracket being full of foreigners who can't be bothered to practice aka LilBow for the biggest tournament of the year.
As I said, going to Korea is not a solution to anything. Kespa is not going to welcome you with open hands. You can throw examples left and right but there is no foreigner that really dedicated in Korea.
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EPT
