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Plot holes and retcons

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
December 13 2015 20:14 GMT
#1
So, after finishing the campaign, and gathering all of my memories of WoL+HotS to this point, I found the story very amateurish and not up to standards.
Given that most of the missions are "destroy x", "hold x" or "destroy x before y", the campaign is not innovative by any means. It is still enjoyable, I cannot deny that, but 80% of missions play out the same.

There is already a similar thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/single-player/498215-campaign-thoughts-spoilers), but I wanted to start a new one, pure story/lore related, without discussing the overall gameplay and fun that we had (or not) during the campaign.

What do you don't like in the story?
What do you like about it?
How would you like the story to be told?
Which moment was the most epic and blew your mind?
Which moment made you think "wait, this doesn't make any sense at all"?

Here are mine little rant on the plot, if anyone wants to read:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is not BW vs SC2 post. BW has its own share of inconsistencies, but that ship has sailed long time ago. LotV has been out for only over a month.


Storytelling:
In BW you are introduced to characters and events by either walls of text or by “Skype” conference calls. But because of the way the story was told, we didn't really get to know the characters. We knew what they were doing at a particular moment, but the amount of dialog was still relatively small. Even if someone was acting ouf of his/her character, it could be attributed exactly to us not really knowing the character of person in question, and not to them being illogical. Also, we as a player, are not expected to disobey orders. We are addressed as a Commander/Cerebrate/Executor, and given orders by the superiors. We are also a part of the story. This in itself, makes the story more engaging. When you are a part of the story, you think as one of the characters in it. You care about other characters more. Especially if you get to control them or fight them (or alongside them) in most missions.

SC2 story is presented in a cinematic fashion. Think Hollywood, Michael Bay'esque fashion. It is a different sort of story telling. To a person like me, it is also a weaker sort of story telling. When I'm not a part of the story, I pay more attention to the characters and their motivations. It's easier for me to spot the flaws.
The opposite is also true. When I play RPG's, I don't think much about what others do and why – I'm thinking more about my own character and what should I (him/her) do next and what will happen to me. That's why while playing Skyrim for the first time, the terrible plot of Thieves Guild didn't seem that bad at first, only slightly irritating (it is truly terrible, just read this – http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422).
In case of SC2 story, while I'm just an observer, I see the flaws more clearly. My eyes bleed. My ears hurt. My brain is suffocating in boiling cavity of my skull. And in the same way I wanted to talk about design and balance (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/497696-sc2-could-be-so-much-more-design-and-balance), now I want to talk about the SC2 story.


Start of the campaign:
Raynor with a death wish attempts to board a Battle Cruiser in a Shuttle. And not just any BC, a Flagship of the Dominion. Read this again.
It's a suicidal mission, borderline insane, and plainly a retarded thing to do. Next, he fights some Marines and secures the bridge, where he expects to find Mengsk, but instead he meets his son. Valerian explains that he is his contact for Moebius, and they make a deal.
First of all, aboard the ship there should be more security then a handfull of Marines. Also, Raynor and his ship could have been easily destroyed way before reaching the BC. After reaching the bridge, Raynor could have just pulled the trigger, killing Valerian without giving him a chance to explain himself, which would be a smart thing to do: after all, his men opened fire on Raynor when he boarded the Flagship.
However, if Valerian wanted to make a better impression and not make Raynor kill him before opening his mouth, he should have those Marines on the ship stand down. He could have send a transmission to Raynor explaining that he is not the enemy. What if Raynor retreated and never attempted to board the BC, which would be the sane thing to do? What if he died in gunfight aboard the ship? What if he killed Valerian before letting him speak? What if Raynor assumed Valerian is lying (like father, like son) and killed him regardless – there is no reason for Raynor to believe anything what Valerian is saying after his troops tried to kill him.
Even if everything gone fine, why Raynor is not pissed off? After all, those soldiers that he and Tychus killed on the ship died for no good reason other then Valerian's enjoyement. Man like Raynor would be disgusted and never side with someone who lets people die so easily.


Mengsk's brain damage/dementia:
Tychus - a double agent for Mengsk. Problem is, Mengsk wasted a great potential in planting him inside Raynor's Raiders. How much damage could have been prevented if Mengsk eavesdropped on some of the conversations on board of Hyperion. Or made Tychus to give him valuable inside information now and again.
Even more problematic is a failure of his own propaganda, where the newsmen should be fired and not allowed to work after so many flops and undermining his image.
Also, why waste so much money to hunt down Raynor, if he could have easily select a group of Ghost operatives to assassinate him – Nova had no difficulties tracking down and getting close to Raynor.
Mengsk also fails to extract any valuable information from Raynor while he is imprisoned, and keeping Raynor alive after announcing his death is even more illogical and counterproductive.
Better yet, why not tell Kerrigan to stay away from Korhal, or Raynor gets a bullet? Why not use him as a hostage?
Why Mengsk didn't use the Artefact to kill most Zerg/Kerrigan, when she launched an offensive on Korhal? Surely he had loads of time to charge it up and use it whenever he wanted.


Raynor not caring about his bestie
So Raynor hears about the death suit which Tychus is wearing, and ignores it completely? Never asks why Tychus is wearing it even after Moebius has no use of him, like, when the last piece of the Artefact was collected?
Bad Raynor, bad.


The Odin:
So you have a super weapon you want to show off for a parade. It's being built in a secret facility.
The facility is attacked, the weapon stolen, and nobody sends a warning to Mengsk. Nobody seems to bother. No one checks the identity of Odin's pilot, which should be the normal security protocol. Also, if it was captured by Raynor, how did it get transported to the parade? No one checked the paperwork, the staff, the pilot? How the hell Mengsk is still in power? After all, he and his generals seem to be demented. There is too much bullshit for anyone to handle.


Drakken Laser Drill:
Killing Archons and Collosi in mere seconds, it is far more powerful then Nukes. It could be like, I don't know, the most useful thing ever?
No explanation is given, but one can assume that Laser Drills could be produced in greater numbers, yet after one mission we never hear about those powerful weapons/tools again. Why not, if one or two of those could stop entire battalion of hybrids?


The Artefact:
Apparently it is used by Narud to extract Kerrigan's power to fuel the revival of Amon. Why not use all of the psionic power leaving Protoss bodies when Overmind assaulted Aiur? It is difficult to understand why Narud went through so much trouble if he could revive Amon earlier.
Is Kerrigan special and only her power could resurrect Amon? That would mean that Amon/Narud could see the future, and construct the Artefact millennia ago solely for the purpose of using unborn Kerrigan's power to revive Amon. If Xel-Naga could predict the future in such detail, how come they perished in the first place? Why couldn't they stop Amon before he was born? Or stop the corruption of Protoss or the Zerg?
Narud could have obtained the Artefact hundreds if not thousands of years ago. He knows the location of it down to a T, and TalDarim guarding some of them clearly work for Amon or at least support his cause. Why didn't he assemble it before Overmind attacked Auir, killing countless Protoss and releasing psionic energies vastly bigger then those of single, no matter how powerful, Kerrigan, is a mystery or a really bad case of laziness.


Your actions in WoL don't matter at all:
After the events of WoL, Mengsk is still in power. Dominion is still strong, even after suffering great loses when launching assault on Char and everything. All the Raynor's work to undermine Mengsk, the retrieving of the Adjutant, sending a broadcast about Mengsk burning the sector to the ground (if its not his), nothing of it matters. It isn't even explained how is it possible that Mengsk is still in power.
So, you haven't achieved anything other then assembling the Artefact for Narud who could have done it himself, but apparently was to lazy to do it during his millennia long life.


Tassadar/Ouros shouldn't happen:
In Starcraft universe, there are no ghosts. There is absolutely no reason for Zeratul to believe in anything that has been said. He doesn't even question anything what he is told.
Other things in that mission also don't make much sense. How is it possible that there is a Protoss base intact waiting to be reactivated?
How is it possible that some Protoss units were trapped while warping in, if the Warp Gate tech wasn't around when Overmind attacked Aiur? How do they even know who Zeratul is?
Wouldn't it be FAR more beneficial for Ouros to reveal its true form, tell Zeratul he is the last Xel-Naga, tell him everything he needs to know about stopping Amon, and if we pursue the prophecy storyline (which shouldn't happen in sci-fi anyway), why not tell Zeratul to just bring Kerrigan to Ouros, or better yet, stop the Artefact from being assembled, and leave Kerrigan infested so no one can drain her power to resurrect Amon, or just kill Narud before Amon can be resurrected?


Overmind retcon nonsense:
According to SC1 and BW story, Overmind wants to assimilate Protoss. He wants to make the Zerg perfect, or at least is seeking perfection. It is a good motivation for a villain, something alien, but at the same time easy to understand and much better then some super DBZ being that wants to extinguish all life in the Galaxy for no reason at all.
He infests Kerrigan and makes her one of his greatest agents, so he says. He uses her psionic powers and wit to fight the Protoss. Then, when he learns that Cerebrates and possibly himself can be killed by the Dark Templar, he sends Kerrigan to hunt them down. He attacks Aiur, killing great numbers of Protoss, and probably in the background, uses all the bodies and DNA to assimilate Protoss. Probably this is also the reason why he himself appears on the planet surface. If he succeeded, that would be a mark of strategical genius – send someone to kill those who are capable of killing you, and do what you set out to do in the first place.

It makes sense. It is a good character and a villain. However, here comes the “Amon's corruption”.
We learn that the Overmind is bound to a single overriding directive – killing Protoss. To free the Zerg, he creates the Kerrigan, with her own will, and plans a suicide so Kerrigan can rule the Swarm and break the Amons influence. There is a couple of problems with this approach:
- If Overmind has a directive to destroy Protoss, he wouldn't create the Kerrigan to rule it, as it would be (dum dum dum) against the directive. He either creates Kerrigan to help him kill Protoss, or he doesn't create her because it is against the directive. Overmind should not be even capable of planing anything to mess up the directive/influence, if he is under its control. If he isn't, then there is no influence in the first place and he is not the prisoner of his own mind! Logic.

- Overmind doesn't know that Cerebrates or himself can be killed by the Protoss. He learns about it only when Zasz is killed in SC1. So if he had control over Kerrigan, and there was Amons influence, and he didn't know that he himself can be killed, then creating Kerrigan makes no difference – she will always obey the Overmind, as he is immortal.

- Overmind has slaughtered Xel-Naga on his own. Restricted to strains and biomass of one planet. He killed dozens, maybe hundreds of them – possibly even killing Amon himself. Overmind has grown in strength since then, assimilating more species and gathering more biomass – why is Amon so scary then? If dozens/hundreds of Xel-Naga couldn't stop infantile Overmind from killing them, how can Amon achieve that on his own? Wouldn't Overmind just kill/assimilate the Protoss, then turn on Amon and his hybrids if he ever arised? We are told that Amon/Hybrids can somehow control the Swarm. Why other Xel-Naga couldn't? And if Xel-Naga (themselves being hybrids of two other species) are so easily killed, why should anyone be scared of them and the prophecy? Just point a couple of Nukes and blast the damn things and the big bad himself.

- Overmind being creation of Amon takes a dump on original Starcraft, where the Xel-Naga created the Overmind in order to keep Zerg united, after the failed experiment with the Protoss (and Aeon of Strife). Xel-Naga observed the Overmind, but didn't expect it to sever the link and get out of their control and sight. He then consumed the Xel-Naga with all their powerful tech and power. How did the Amon corrupt the Overmind on his own, if all of Xel-Naga couldn't keep him in check? How come Overmind is under his influence at all, especially after he also died? If anything, Amon should be scared shitless of the Overmind and the Zerg.


Heart of the Swarm Raynor/Kerrigan split:
In early missions, Raynor and Kerrigan are split apart because of a collapsed bridge. There is a couple of problems with this one:
First, Kerrigan is shown in the exact same mission to be able to use her psionic power to lift up serveral units in the air at will – therefore, lifting a single Marine/Raynor should be easy for her to do.
Second, Raynor is using a powered armor. He should be able to jump though the gap on his own.


Kaldir HotS missions:
There is absolutely no reason for Kerrigan to stay on Kaldir in the first place. None at all. If she was looking for Roach/Hydralisk strains, well: she has Abathur, who should have the knowledge of every Zerg strain. Also, every single Zerg larva contains DNA strands for all most common Zerg strains. It feels poorly thought out and against SC1 lore that Zerg would not be able to replicate Hydralisks or the Roaches strain.
If Kerrigan was only looking for the Brood Mother, she could have left as soon as she confirmed her death. If Kerrigan is so scared of the Golden Armada, that would be a smart thing to do – pack the swarm off the planet and disappear without Protoss noticing. There is no reason to risk everything for revenge on relatively small and insignificant Protoss outpost.
Also, if Kerrigan was trying to prevent Protoss from knowing that she is no longer commanding the Swarm, or that the Swarm was weakened and lacks the hierarchy – that should be obvious to Protoss, like it was in SC1. Without the command, Zerg turn on another, fighting like animals between themselves. Mengsk has also transmitted the message about Kerrigan, which Protoss should pick up. Preventing Protoss from knowing about Kerrigan and the Swarm being weak is pointless. Protoss should also act on this information, actively trying to reclaim worlds, or hunt Kerrigan down.

Why do Protoss use super inefficient means of communication? They have Warp Gates for god's sake. They have the Khala. Even Zealots “dying” and respawning on Shakuras would be a good indication that Kerrigan is attacking Kaldir and Golden Armada should make its move.

Why Kerrigan lets the brood on the Protoss ship to float in space, instead of integrating the forces/biomass back into her own army?


Zerus and Primal Zerg:
Zerus was supposed to be a vulcanic world, desolated and stripped of life when Overmind departed from it. It became a jungle with no explanation at all. It is surprising that on Zerus you can find Primal Zerg looking like Zerg strains which were assimilated by the Overmind on other worlds (Hydralisks, Mutalisks and other). All animals (Zerg) on Zerus are carnivorous - how does the food chain work? Where is the basic energy (normally extracted by herbivores) coming from?
Why make up some stupid crap like the “essence”, if we have completely fine DNA and genes to work with? If the essence is not DNA, what is it, space magic? Is this another way of making the story fall even more into fantasy realm, and cut all the sci-fi elements?
How come Overmind with all his knowledge take so much time and preparation to infest Kerrigan without affecting her mental capabilities, yet some non-sentient spawning pool does the same job better in less amount of time? If the spawning pool is indeed so powerful and grand, why didn't Overmind just sat there himself to make itself stronger/better? Why not bring captured Protoss and soak them in if he wanted to assimilate them with ease? Why not soak Abathur, who with greater metal capabilities could probably later improve the Swarm strains even more?
Why is there any life on Zerus at all, if all the Zerg were bound to the Overmind? Did Xel-Naga left some behind? Did Overmind skip some independent Zerg when he consumed all remaining biomass of the planet?
Why does Primal Zerg not resemble simple larva, as they should if we go by SC1 manual?
Primal Zerg shouldn't exist in the first place – it is a big downer in story telling leading to many other plot holes.


Abathur – Cerebrate from SC1/BW?
In SC1, only Overmind/Cerebrates can ressurect a dead being (like Torrasque). Apparently, Abathur is capable of a similar feat in one mission where it/he ressurects an Ultralisk. Wouldn't it make more sense if Abathur was introduced as the old Cerebrate, which was first looking after and then working for Kerrigan in BW?
That would be much better fan service then Infested Stukov introduction, which brings its own problems.


Stukov, Narud and Zerg genetic engineering + Xel-Nagas retcon:
In SC1 manual it is said:
“Through the intimate knowledge of evolution and proto-genetic physiology gained from the Xel’Naga, the Overmind was able to increase the level of sentience in many of the higher Zerg strains, while still keeping them fully under its control.“
So, Zerg/Overmind are already great at genetic manipulation. However, in SC2 we learn from Abathur that:
“Interweaving of terran and zerg matter, subtle. Spun on micro scale not possible for Swarm. Entity responsible for Stukov exceeds organism Abathur. Untenable to oppose.”
All genetic manipulation is made on a micro scale. You either are capable of doing it, or not. If Abathur was made solely for the purpose of genetic manipulation, he should be able to do anything that is possible to be done. Even replicating QoB or Primal Kerrigan if he had access to some sample DNA.
Later, he explains that Zerg and even Amon's genetic manipulation is nothing in comparison to what the primal spawning pool can do. Magic.
The big problem here is that it implies that if Overmind indeed was looking for perfection, he should have never left Zerus and just camp by the pool like some bad CS:GO player. It would not only help him achieve perfection (SC1 motivations), but also help him create strains of Zerg so powerful, that he could destroy Protoss in a matter of days or weeks (SC2 retcon motivation), all while taking minimal casualties. There was never any reason for Overmind to leave Zerus. Unless we pretend that Zerus or HotS just never happened.

In the original game, Xel-Naga didn't seed the universe with live, nor they were creating new species. They were only modifying the most promising specimens (Protoss, Zerg), and trying their best not to mess up. By SC1 lore, Xel-Naga were highly advanced, but not the best. Not immortal and capable of “tearing worlds apart”.
Think of a nerd, a lab geek surrounded by highly advanced equipment in a lab. Not even so super duper advanced tech, probably something 100-300 years away from current Protoss technology.

Even more, the Zerg were actually better and DNA manipulation then Xel-Naga themselves:
“The Xel’Naga soon made an alarming discovery. The original races assimilated by the Zerg were hardly recognisable after only a few generations of their inception. Somehow the Zerg had developed the ability to supercharge and steer the latent evolutionary processes within their host creatures. The host creatures fell prey to the effects of gradual physical mutations that caused all of the various strains to grow armour piercing spines, razor-sharp limbs, and ultra dense carapaces. Over a surprisingly short amount of time, the strains grew to resemble a terrifyingly ravenous and unified race.”
If anything, the Zerg/Overmind/Abathur should be superior in genetic modification then Xel-Naga, Narud, and Amon himself. Magic spawning pool included.

So, Xel-Naga tried to play god in SC1, and got themselves killed. No magic involved.
In SC2, they got transformed into literal gods, travelling between universes, seeding them with life and magic, capable of seeing the future (prophecies), yet incapable of saving themselves. They didn't know Amon would betray them. They didn't know Zerg would be out of control. Or Protoss for that matter. They didn't escape into alternate universe to start again, but let lower species kill them like cattle. What is wrong with them? Were they high on Terrazine?


Kerrigan and Raynor
No one ever implies that the Queen of Blades and Kerrigan are different people/personalities in SC1/BW.
Ever.
Kerrigan and QoB is the same being. She hates everyone for being left and infested, and uses her new found powers to deceive, kill and maim everyone in her path. She has been wronged, and now she takes revenge, leaving everyone alive at the end of BW just so she could come back one day and wreck havoc once more. She's power hungry. She's a great villain with an actual motive.
Suddenly, in SC2 QoB and Kerrigan are not the same. More then that, Raynor forgives her everything after staring for too long at the zergified booty. And they apparently have feelings for each other. What happened to the strong minded, determined Raynor who says “I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan. For Fenix and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorrow, darling. It may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured: I'm the man who's going to kill you some day.”
Furthermore, it is said at one point that Kerrigan killed 8 billion people. I will not dwelve into the matter of how suddenly the population of Terrans grew to 8 billion, while it was stated somewhere in SC1 that the biggest worlds had less then 5 million people, but the thing is, Kerrigan is a mass murderer. Probably the biggest murderer in the history of mankind (although we don't know what happens in the UED sector), yet Raynor waves it as something that didn't happen. Kerrigan has changed, it's ok to love her and forgive her.
This isn't the Raynor I used to know.


The cinematics:
There is a big difference between SC1 and SC2 cinematics. Not only in the quality of production, that is obvious.
SC1 cinematics show us the micro aspect of war. We see lonely Marine sitting in a trench, surrounded by Zerg. His visor is up, we can see his face. He's a human. He's scared and alone. It's painful to see him die and be shred by Hydralisks.
SC2 cinematics are much more grand, but we lose the human factor. Marines always have their visors up – faceless, nameless grunts, they could be machines for all we know. Raynor watching fallen Marines after a big battle doesn't make me feel anything.
This is what SC2 lacks – characters, emotion, humanity, or protossanity, if you will.
I do not need to see Zerg invasion to know that it takes place. Yes, it's epic, but it is like watching a Michael Bays movie – I watch it, enjoy the fireworks, but I don't care for any of the characters. They are meaningless to me. And same thing happens in SC2. I'm detached from what is going on on the screen. Someone saying that Kerrigan has killed 8 billion doesn't make an impression on me. I've never seen any civilians die, only nameless, faceless grunts.


The ending:
I have read other peoples opinions and I have seen the cinematic on Youtube. I haven't touched the Epilogue yet, but I don't think there is any need to add to the confusion that the ending is.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
December 14 2015 01:50 GMT
#2

In the original game, Xel-Naga didn't seed the universe with live, nor they were creating new species. They were only modifying the most promising specimens (Protoss, Zerg), and trying their best not to mess up. By SC1 lore, Xel-Naga were highly advanced, but not the best. Not immortal and capable of “tearing worlds apart”. 
Think of a nerd, a lab geek surrounded by highly advanced equipment in a lab. Not even so super duper advanced tech, probably something 100-300 years away from current Protoss technology. 


Most obnoxious retcon right here. I loved the old lab geek xel'naga...
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
December 14 2015 03:38 GMT
#3
I do enjoy the aspect of you yourself becoming a part of the bw story. In the zerg campaign, you are the overmind's greatest cerebrate and you are tasked with protecting the overmind's prize (kerrigan).

And after invading Aiur, you have to attack a temple where the xel'naga first set foot on. Now, I have the image of stupid cthulu walking around in Aiur jungles.

The prophecy portion is so stupid I can't imagine other ways a good lore got ruined. It's up there with midichlorians.

I'm going to completely block sc2 lore from my mind and afaik campaign ended with bw.
rip passion
Wray92
Profile Joined December 2015
22 Posts
December 14 2015 05:33 GMT
#4
On December 14 2015 05:14 Nazara wrote:
What happened to the strong minded, determined Raynor who says “I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan. For Fenix and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorrow, darling. It may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured: I'm the man who's going to kill you some day.”


I totally forgot about that. Yeah, that's really bad. They undermined one of the best moments from the original story just to force in this nonsensical romance plot. . . .
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
December 14 2015 06:03 GMT
#5
Lol, I stopped playing campaign after WOL. As far as I'm concerned none of the events of SC2 ever happened. Even in WOL there were so many stupid retcons and plot holes it blew my mind (once I got past the nostalgia of playing a SC campaign again). The whole 'Raynor's vengeance against Kerrigan' retcon being the worst of all.

The SC2 writers practically had the campaign written for them at the outset...an epic quest to topple the Queen of Blades, end the Dominion, and reclaim Aiur (with a dose of Xel'Naga for good measure). Instead we got this mangled, hideous pile of crap that should make even amateur writers puke their guts out. Luckily a good way into WOL I got absorbed by competition and never even bothered to play the HOTS campaign.

Thanks for the exhaustive list, OP. Glad to see my suspicions are on point .
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Pentarp
Profile Joined August 2015
216 Posts
December 14 2015 06:20 GMT
#6
Well said.
Plogamer TL.net RedRocket B.net
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
December 14 2015 06:27 GMT
#7
I'm going to go further back than that, I think the story jumped the shark when Kerrigan came back as the Queen of Blades... in Starcraft 1. From a story telling perspective it put a human face on the zerg swarm which was completely unnecessary, it instantly took away all the menace and mystery of the zerg, all of the drama between the other characters would have gone on exactly as they would have with a purely Zerg character like Zagara (or just some other non-human character that was controlled by the overmind) in place of Kerrigan. It created so many loose ends for character motivations, and had this not happened Blizzard wouldn't have felt the need or incentive to shoe horn in a romance subplot in SC2.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
December 14 2015 08:36 GMT
#8
On December 14 2015 15:27 Caihead wrote:
I'm going to go further back than that, I think the story jumped the shark when Kerrigan came back as the Queen of Blades... in Starcraft 1. From a story telling perspective it put a human face on the zerg swarm which was completely unnecessary, it instantly took away all the menace and mystery of the zerg, all of the drama between the other characters would have gone on exactly as they would have with a purely Zerg character like Zagara (or just some other non-human character that was controlled by the overmind) in place of Kerrigan. It created so many loose ends for character motivations, and had this not happened Blizzard wouldn't have felt the need or incentive to shoe horn in a romance subplot in SC2.
I heard this opinion before. Personally I'm indifferent to Kerrigan becoming the QoB, but leaving zerg being zerg could work without altering the story.
Imagine overmind using Kerrigan's DNA to assemble a zerg infiltrator with human traits like creativity, independence or whatever we count as human, just to confuse other races. Overmind fakes his death to give others a sense of security and uses the new creation to stab everyone in the back. No humans in the zerg swarm, but same effect. And doesn't lead to any romance/magic of del-naga. Even a retcon of this size at the start of sc2 would make more sense to me then big bad super sayan Amon.

But, a lot of people like/love this plot twist in Brood War.
MrMischelito
Profile Joined February 2014
347 Posts
December 14 2015 09:11 GMT
#9
thanks for the write-up. I did not notice myself a lot of the things that you mentioned but sadly I have to agree 100%'

btw, I played the bw campaign not long ago and I have to admit that that storyline is also not as good as I remembered from playing at a much younger age... haha! though I have to say that the point of actually taking part in the story and being addressed to personally is probably what still catches me when I play. thanks for pointing that out!
RoomOfMush
Profile Joined March 2015
1296 Posts
December 14 2015 09:22 GMT
#10
On December 14 2015 15:27 Caihead wrote:
I'm going to go further back than that, I think the story jumped the shark when Kerrigan came back as the Queen of Blades... in Starcraft 1. From a story telling perspective it put a human face on the zerg swarm which was completely unnecessary, it instantly took away all the menace and mystery of the zerg, all of the drama between the other characters would have gone on exactly as they would have with a purely Zerg character like Zagara (or just some other non-human character that was controlled by the overmind) in place of Kerrigan. It created so many loose ends for character motivations, and had this not happened Blizzard wouldn't have felt the need or incentive to shoe horn in a romance subplot in SC2.


I disagree with you there. It fits perfectly into the nature of the Zerg to assimilate other races. The whole reason why the Overmind wanted to conquer Aiur was to make Zerg Protoss hybrids (and to destroy the protoss). There were already plenty of infested terrans in the game and it was established right from the second or third mission in the campaign, that the zerg were able to and interested in infesting terrans.

Kerrigan was a high ranking officer and a powerful psychic. Its not out of the way to infest her and make her a powerful warrior of the Zerg cause. She wasnt even important until the BW campaign.


Besides that it was perfect for the campaign since it gives you some dialogue. Without Kerrigan the zerg campaign would have been horribly boring. Zerg are a race of bio engineered weapons. They are practically programmed. Without zerg there would be no emotion or conflict, just cold logical execution.
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
December 14 2015 09:57 GMT
#11
Overmind was able to increase the level of sentience in many of the higher Zerg strains, while still keeping them fully under its control

IMO the Brood War campaign failed to deliver this. Instead we got two former terrans Kerrigan and Duran manipulating everything. Having played the campaign again recently, I wished they had injected more sentient Zerg characters into the story. The Zerg aren't dumb; they are just incapable of disobeying the hive mind (aka overlords, queens, cerebrates, overmind). BW Zerg campaign made it feel like they were dumb.
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
RookUK
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United Kingdom283 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-14 13:45:15
December 14 2015 13:15 GMT
#12
There are a couple of things you've mentioned which the game does explain - firstly, there's a conversation in Wings in which Gabriel Tosh asks Jim why Mengsk hasn't had him assassinated by ghosts: Jim explains that Mengsk is intelligent enough to know that creating a martyr is unwise.

Secondly, the Drakken technology is mentioned again at least once that I can remember - in the 'Planetfall' mission in Swarm, it's explicitly stated that a Drakken-based defense system is decimating the zerg drop pods attempting to land on Korhal's surface. I'm fairly sure that certain Dominion defensive emplacements are visibly based on the Drakken cannon from 'The Dig', too.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
December 14 2015 15:07 GMT
#13
Yes I remember the conversation, but I think Mengsk himself disagrees :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5-ABwpO_4

I makes more sense for people to lose all hope after Raynor's death then to start viewing him as a martyr. If Raynor dies, Mengsk wins.

And still it is not explained why the laser was abandoned or locked away and never used again. It could bbe handled much better if it was a xel-naga artrfact, and broke down after extensive use.
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
December 14 2015 20:11 GMT
#14
Thank you for the write up, I try not to think about the SC2 story, hurts my brain...

In BW I wish Kerrigan had picked up more Zerg motives after her infestation. As QoB she behaved exclusively like a human. She wanted revenge, survival, and power (human), not to perfect the swarm and to assimilate other species (Zerg). The Zerg became Kerrigan's tool, instead of Kerrigan becoming a Zerg. I think if Kerrigan combined her human thoughts with the Zerg motives, it would have been more fun. For example, if she wanted to assimilate the entire human race in the sector, in the same fashion that the Overmind wanted to assimilate the Protoss, but she approached the agenda with more human tactics, that would have been very cool. Kerrigan could have become an Overmind 2.0 but fell short of the task.

SC2 should have continued the Sci-Fi writing instead of changing to fantasy. The hybrids should have been created by a 4th race (living) from another part of the universe, with technologies more advanced than the Protoss, with their own cultures and motives, (but not the 'we want to destroy the whole universe for no good reason' motive). They could have been a race that the Protoss had discovered in the past but underestimated due to typical Protoss arrogance, or a complete new one from a far corner of the universe the Protoss has not explored, or even from another universe as long as the Sci-Fi writing can support it. Instead, SC2 went with a poorly executed copy of the Burning Legion. At least the Burning Legion was well fleshed out in Warcraft, with the background of the Warcraft universe to support it, and that universe was fantasy to begin with...
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
The Bottle
Profile Joined July 2010
242 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-15 03:55:54
December 15 2015 03:46 GMT
#15
I have a lot to say about this. There was a huge disconnect between the plots in SC/BW and SC2. Now don't get me wrong; I don't think that the SC/BW campaign story and dialogue was the best thing ever. In fact, it was pretty cheesy in its own way, and even had a few plot holes. (You can ask me if you want me to clarify that.) But I still enjoyed it. SC2 on the other hand....

First of all, the SC2 campaigns were just straight up badly written. This is independent of SC/BW. WoL was the most tolerable to me, and HotS the clear worst. But even LotV was just uninspired in almost every way. None of the protoss had any personality at all, except Alarak (with just a little bit). It was predictable in every way. ("We must stop Amon!" "We stopped Amon!") There was virtually no surprise at all in the entire plot. The only exception being Zeratul's death. But I felt absolutely no reason to feel anything about that. It felt more like they were simply capitalizing on an emotional connection that people made with the character in BW. (D3 did something very similar, and it was just as tacky.) Amon is just about the most boring villain ever made. He's a dark god that wants to destroy the universe and remake it in his image. So basically 9 out of the 15 Final Fantasy bosses, but without an interesting backstory as to how he got that way (he was just always that way). And he says the same thing over and over again. "Let me end your suffering." "Why aren't you letting me end your suffering?" "Dude I'm trying to end your suffering. What, do you like suffering or something? Just let me end it!"

Then there's the fact that LotV just felt like a fantasy RPG, rather than a sci-fi RTS. Notice how everyone always gets complimented on being a great warrior, not a tactical battle commander or anything. Everyone's always like "what a great warrior you are! Let us go into battle with honor!" And of course the enemy is a dark god with superpowers. And look at what they did to the Xel Naga. In SC1 the Xel Naga were these mysterious ancient aliens who had more advanced technology than the protoss, but were mostly wiped out. That was a cool idea, and you could make a great sci-fi element out of that. But then they had to go ahead and reveal what they were... a bunch of gods that created the universe. As if that story hasn't been beaten to death by humans throughout history. That is literally the most boring twist to the Xel Naga that I could possibly think of. Oh, but they create other universes! And in each one, they make a couple of species' in their image! And there's a "fallen angel", so to speak, that goes against their plan. And he possesses their creation and gets them to do evil things.

Anyway, let's talk about HotS, which was the worst of the stories. It's like a weird mix between a revenge story and a love story, with a few red herrings where you attack a planet and exterminate a people for no reason. First of all... how much were we supposed to sympathize with Kerrigan? I mean, here we have a Kerrigan that no longer has the same "evil influence" that she did in her previous infestation.... and yet she commits more evil acts than anything ever done by BW Kerrigan. Remember Ceres? What was the point of that section? I feel like they were trying to find a gimmicky way for us to fight protoss. But basically what happens is she goes to get her mutation or whatever, a protoss research colony is there and says "oh no! We better send help to the golden armada in case all these zerg that just popped up want to kill us." And Kerrigan, instead of saying "we got our mutation, let's get out of here", decides "let's kill all these people". And you proceed to kill them all... basically because (and this was established in the Leviathan conversations) it's easier than running away.

So what was the point of HotS? To kill Arcturus Mengsk, right? I mean, he's an evil dictator. Let's not forget the most evil thing he ever did, which was letting the zerg overrun Tarsonis so he could get an easy win against the Confederacy. Oh, by the way, during the course of HotS Kerrigan completely exterminated three human inhabited planets, just so that she could get a strategic edge over Mengsk. After all, we have to depose this evil man. Oh, and by the way, this entire plotline completely undermines half of WoL, which was to win a moral victory against Arcturus Mengsk by revealing to his subjects what he did, and inspiring his subjects to form an uprising. That becomes completely irrelevant when a whole bunch of zerg land on Korhal and force him out of office via jumping lings and reviving ultras. Of course, Raynor could have said that, but instead he just goes and says "baby, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And have I mentioned I love ya?" And by the way, how does that even make sense? At first it's understandable, he de-infested her, and turned her into the Kerrigan he knew from SC1 vanilla. But then she turns back into zerg and massacres a whole bunch of people, and he (rightfully so) doesn't forgive her. But then, after one scene of her making a slight concession to Valerian to spare a bunch of civilians, he decides he loves her again. I get that Raynor is pretty whipped (in SC1 he send his entire group over to Char because he saw Kerrigan in his dreams) but this is beyond understanding.

There's a saying on the Internet that goes "still a better love story than Twilight". I have modified it to say "still a better love story than HotS".

By the way, all throughout LotV, while Artanis and Kerrigan were being all buddy-buddy, I was wondering when that awkward conversation of his research colony on Ceres was going to come up. At least after she turned into a god, she could have told him without fear of retaliation. "Oh hey, Artanis, remember that massive research group you sent to Ceres? Well I, uh, accidentally massacred them all. Sorry bro, I was feeling kinda rusty on my ZvP and I wanted to brush up."

Here's one of the things that bugged me the most about the SC2 campaigns. In all three campaigns, you are fundamentally on the same side. (The side against Amon.) Even in the epilogue missions, the main characters from all three campaigns team up and fight that dark god. In SC/BW, however, you switch sides all the time. In one chapter, you're a loyal cerebrate to the overmind, carrying out his will. In the next, you're gathering everything you can to destroy the overmind. In one chapter you're a UED captain, sympathizing with the likes of Alexei Stukov. In the next, the UED is this big bad group and the entire Korpulu sector has to team up to take them down. This really goes to the feeling of the sci-fi RTS that says that there's no true good guy or bad guy, just a bunch of factions each fighting for their own purpose. I really liked that about Starcraft. It's a shame that that had to be turned on its head in order to make it a story about an evil god that every group you control has to work together to stop.

Anyway, that's my feeling on the plot of the SC2 campaigns. As far as gameplay, I adore the campaigns. I think they're all amazing (again with HotS being the worst of the three), and very well inspired. I just wish it had an decent story to help with the immersion and the overall experience, like SC1 had.
EatingBomber
Profile Joined August 2015
1017 Posts
December 15 2015 05:50 GMT
#16
On December 15 2015 12:46 The Bottle wrote:
I have a lot to say about this. There was a huge disconnect between the plots in SC/BW and SC2. Now don't get me wrong; I don't think that the SC/BW campaign story and dialogue was the best thing ever. In fact, it was pretty cheesy in its own way, and even had a few plot holes. (You can ask me if you want me to clarify that.) But I still enjoyed it. SC2 on the other hand....

First of all, the SC2 campaigns were just straight up badly written. This is independent of SC/BW. WoL was the most tolerable to me, and HotS the clear worst. But even LotV was just uninspired in almost every way. None of the protoss had any personality at all, except Alarak (with just a little bit). It was predictable in every way. ("We must stop Amon!" "We stopped Amon!") There was virtually no surprise at all in the entire plot. The only exception being Zeratul's death. But I felt absolutely no reason to feel anything about that. It felt more like they were simply capitalizing on an emotional connection that people made with the character in BW. (D3 did something very similar, and it was just as tacky.) Amon is just about the most boring villain ever made. He's a dark god that wants to destroy the universe and remake it in his image. So basically 9 out of the 15 Final Fantasy bosses, but without an interesting backstory as to how he got that way (he was just always that way). And he says the same thing over and over again. "Let me end your suffering." "Why aren't you letting me end your suffering?" "Dude I'm trying to end your suffering. What, do you like suffering or something? Just let me end it!"

Then there's the fact that LotV just felt like a fantasy RPG, rather than a sci-fi RTS. Notice how everyone always gets complimented on being a great warrior, not a tactical battle commander or anything. Everyone's always like "what a great warrior you are! Let us go into battle with honor!" And of course the enemy is a dark god with superpowers. And look at what they did to the Xel Naga. In SC1 the Xel Naga were these mysterious ancient aliens who had more advanced technology than the protoss, but were mostly wiped out. That was a cool idea, and you could make a great sci-fi element out of that. But then they had to go ahead and reveal what they were... a bunch of gods that created the universe. As if that story hasn't been beaten to death by humans throughout history. That is literally the most boring twist to the Xel Naga that I could possibly think of. Oh, but they create other universes! And in each one, they make a couple of species' in their image! And there's a "fallen angel", so to speak, that goes against their plan. And he possesses their creation and gets them to do evil things.

Anyway, let's talk about HotS, which was the worst of the stories. It's like a weird mix between a revenge story and a love story, with a few red herrings where you attack a planet and exterminate a people for no reason. First of all... how much were we supposed to sympathize with Kerrigan? I mean, here we have a Kerrigan that no longer has the same "evil influence" that she did in her previous infestation.... and yet she commits more evil acts than anything ever done by BW Kerrigan. Remember Ceres? What was the point of that section? I feel like they were trying to find a gimmicky way for us to fight protoss. But basically what happens is she goes to get her mutation or whatever, a protoss research colony is there and says "oh no! We better send help to the golden armada in case all these zerg that just popped up want to kill us." And Kerrigan, instead of saying "we got our mutation, let's get out of here", decides "let's kill all these people". And you proceed to kill them all... basically because (and this was established in the Leviathan conversations) it's easier than running away.

So what was the point of HotS? To kill Arcturus Mengsk, right? I mean, he's an evil dictator. Let's not forget the most evil thing he ever did, which was letting the zerg overrun Tarsonis so he could get an easy win against the Confederacy. Oh, by the way, during the course of HotS Kerrigan completely exterminated three human inhabited planets, just so that she could get a strategic edge over Mengsk. After all, we have to depose this evil man. Oh, and by the way, this entire plotline completely undermines half of WoL, which was to win a moral victory against Arcturus Mengsk by revealing to his subjects what he did, and inspiring his subjects to form an uprising. That becomes completely irrelevant when a whole bunch of zerg land on Korhal and force him out of office via jumping lings and reviving ultras. Of course, Raynor could have said that, but instead he just goes and says "baby, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And have I mentioned I love ya?" And by the way, how does that even make sense? At first it's understandable, he de-infested her, and turned her into the Kerrigan he knew from SC1 vanilla. But then she turns back into zerg and massacres a whole bunch of people, and he (rightfully so) doesn't forgive her. But then, after one scene of her making a slight concession to Valerian to spare a bunch of civilians, he decides he loves her again. I get that Raynor is pretty whipped (in SC1 he send his entire group over to Char because he saw Kerrigan in his dreams) but this is beyond understanding.

There's a saying on the Internet that goes "still a better love story than Twilight". I have modified it to say "still a better love story than HotS".

By the way, all throughout LotV, while Artanis and Kerrigan were being all buddy-buddy, I was wondering when that awkward conversation of his research colony on Ceres was going to come up. At least after she turned into a god, she could have told him without fear of retaliation. "Oh hey, Artanis, remember that massive research group you sent to Ceres? Well I, uh, accidentally massacred them all. Sorry bro, I was feeling kinda rusty on my ZvP and I wanted to brush up."

Here's one of the things that bugged me the most about the SC2 campaigns. In all three campaigns, you are fundamentally on the same side. (The side against Amon.) Even in the epilogue missions, the main characters from all three campaigns team up and fight that dark god. In SC/BW, however, you switch sides all the time. In one chapter, you're a loyal cerebrate to the overmind, carrying out his will. In the next, you're gathering everything you can to destroy the overmind. In one chapter you're a UED captain, sympathizing with the likes of Alexei Stukov. In the next, the UED is this big bad group and the entire Korpulu sector has to team up to take them down. This really goes to the feeling of the sci-fi RTS that says that there's no true good guy or bad guy, just a bunch of factions each fighting for their own purpose. I really liked that about Starcraft. It's a shame that that had to be turned on its head in order to make it a story about an evil god that every group you control has to work together to stop.

Anyway, that's my feeling on the plot of the SC2 campaigns. As far as gameplay, I adore the campaigns. I think they're all amazing (again with HotS being the worst of the three), and very well inspired. I just wish it had an decent story to help with the immersion and the overall experience, like SC1 had.


With regards to the Protoss research colony that Kerrigan butchered, its location was on Kaldir. What's Ceres? The only thing in the SC2 lore that comes remotely close to sounding like that is Zerus, the Zerg's homeworld.

Also, I felt that while the Brood War story was superior to the SC2 one, its gameplay was lacking; most of the missions were either based around turtling to a sufficiently large army before 1a, or some generic dungeon mission with heroes.

But I completely agree with you on most of the points. I liked WoL the most because it felt the most realistic and down-to-earth, but perhaps that is due to the fundamental nature of Terran. This is of course not to dismiss its flaws, such as the Protoss missions, which marked the start of the catastrophe of the lore. LotV and HotS, but especially LotV, increased the scale of events to the point when I wondered how the hell Terran can even survive, let alone compete. Narud stated that 'Raynor was unfit to stand amongst Gods'. In this I completely agree; how the hell does the least technologically and biologically advanced race even compete with the likes of the Golden Armada, Kerrigan by herself, and let alone enter the Altarian Rift, and fight against the creation of a literal God?


boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
December 15 2015 14:24 GMT
#17
HotS was the worst part though. LotV sucked in terms of story, too. I was able to not look at the holes and shit in WoL because I'm into emotional shit and loved tryhard Raynor. Also it felt like the cinematics/storytelling in general was way better in WoL.
Alventenie
Profile Joined July 2007
United States2147 Posts
December 15 2015 20:48 GMT
#18
On December 15 2015 00:07 Nazara wrote:
Yes I remember the conversation, but I think Mengsk himself disagrees :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5-ABwpO_4

I makes more sense for people to lose all hope after Raynor's death then to start viewing him as a martyr. If Raynor dies, Mengsk wins.

And still it is not explained why the laser was abandoned or locked away and never used again. It could bbe handled much better if it was a xel-naga artrfact, and broke down after extensive use.



I dont disagree with the mentality that Mengsk wants Raynor dead but these are at 2 different times. The part you described was in the middle of the zerg rampaging through the sector and if Mengsk kills Raynor then people will believe he isn't focusing on the right thing (protecting them and stopping the zerg). This would cause a lot of back fire imo.

In the video where he proclaims he is dead, the zerg are dealt with for the most part already, and there is nothing for Mengsk to do otherwise. A much better political move now to do it than before.

Also the Drakken laser drill seems very simple. Its a tool, not a weapon. You probably would have to have some serious power attached to it, so it will become hard for it to be very deployable in offensive situations. At best it would be defensive only (which was commented on in the last zerg missions). It also will probably take a lot to move it quickly from place to place, making it very ineffective in campaigns where you need to move a lot and have positional advantage over your enemy.

A few others you mentioned that were commented on. The Odin was explained by Warfield in a News cast you could click on right after you steal it. Kate Lockwell asks him about how they lost communication, and Warfield said they did breifly, but they regained contact quickly and delivery was on time. Matt Horner also has comments that he pulled in a ton of favors to get the Odin on the ground and past clearance so they could pull this stunt off.

Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
December 15 2015 21:04 GMT
#19
The story jump the shark in BW.

Prophecy story? BW
Overly convoluted protect the hero missions? BW
Randomly fighting each other without clear direction of overarching narrative? BW
Random factions that somehow never existed before but now do for arbitrary reasons? BW

Everything SC2 did wrong it did so because it copied fucking BW.

All the best parts of SC1's story was in vanilla SC1.
jeeeeohn
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States1343 Posts
December 16 2015 04:32 GMT
#20
Honestly, the plot is dumb. Even still, SC2 in its entirety is the best designed single player RTS ever made. It's perfectly serviceable space opera.
If you can't jam with the best, then you have to slam with the rest.
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