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Team League Special Part 1: All Kills and Coaches

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Team League Special Part 1: All Kills and Coaches

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics bylichter
November 24th, 2015 02:06 GMT

by stuchiu



Starcraft 2 is a 1v1 game. And because of that it becomes natural for the stories, narratives and attention to generally be focused on the champions of tournaments, the players that can climb to the top of the scene and lift the trophy over the rest of his peers. Still, we hold team leagues in high regard. In this arena, incredible matches, incredible moments and incredible players have come forth. In Part 1 of the Team League Special I go over some of the greatest all-kills and the greatest coaches.

Lists are not in any particular order.

(Some of) The Greatest All-Kills


The TOTO Destroyer

(complete name John Lennon Bandanna Terran TOTO Destroyer)

The IM team lost, and it was all Coach Kang’s fault. To be fair to Coach Kang, it is normally a good idea to field a B-teamer against the weakest team in the league to get experience. Hell, fielding another B-teamer is only just a moderate risk. But he fielded 3 B-teamers against qxc in Horror, BBi and dreamertt. All 3 were summarily destroyed in solid play and he was then left to bet it all on Mvp, who got rushed. qxc then hadouken’d the audience, took off his bandanna and threw it into the crowd. He was applauded by the Korean netizens as they gave him nickname after nickname including: The Bandanna Man, John Lennon and The TOTO Destroyer (A Korean liquibet system). Coach Kang would continue to coach one of the best teams in the world while losing nearly every team league with increasingly baffling decisions.

[image loading]


The Bo9 Reverse All-Kill


The IM team lost in GSTL and for once it wasn’t Coach Kang’s fault. Losira had just 4-killed TSL, eliminating Revival, Inori, Polt and HyuN. The last player standing was Symbol, a player many pegged at the time to be the next big zerg. He then pulled off the impossible against what was still the strongest team in the world—at least, individually. He reverse all-killed IM defeating Losira, YoDa, Happy, Mvp and NesTea. It is one of only two reverse all kills in Korean Team League history and the only one that was a Bo9 against the best team at the time. Symbol would then go on to become a top 3 zerg, but he could never get over his hump during his peak skill to win a championship.

The Best KT


Once upon a time, there used to be a rivalry between SKT and KT. They traded Proleague titles multiple times in BW, they both had championship caliber players that constantly traded series and sets and for the most part it was even. And then Feb. 11, 2014 happened. On that day Zest declared to the whole world his candidacy for best player of 2014 by all-killing SKT in the 1st round robin playoffs, defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO and PartinG. Zest turned it into his personal mission to destroy the hopes and dreams of SKT fans everywhere, routinely slapping every SKT player he faced throughout that year. He went 63-43 in maps and 28-11 in series proving once and for all that the best KT of them all was Zest.

[image loading]


The Application


I have no proof. There isn’t a single shred of evidence to be found. But I can’t help but think that Billowy was recruited by SKT for the sole sake of spiting KT. In the second round of the playoffs in 2014 Proleague, MVP were having the run of their lives. However, the problem was that despite their momentum, they were still seeded fourth against KT. It was a monumental mismatch and it would take a miracle to win. Billowy was that miracle. Match after match he eliminated KT player after KT player in the most hilarious way possible—by making stalkers and blink stalkers. At the climax of the match, Flash finally learned from the mistakes of his fellows and built bunkers to defend against the inevitable all-in. After waiting for a while without any sign of aggression, he then salvaged all of his bunkers and moved out, only to get all-inned by blink stalkers. Nearly 1.5 years later on SKT, Billowy would be fielded against KT again in the Round 4 Playoffs of PL 2015, where he would eliminate Stats with a 3 gate. Some things never change.

Only Genius Things


The last time Genius was relevant was during his 2012 GSL run where he eventually lost to DRG in the finals. After that peak, he went on a slow descent into LoL (Strangely he would never go full LoL like his ex-SlayerS teammates CoCa and Puzzle). He would finally reappear on Azubu where he quietly did nothing for six months, until the first night of the GSTL playoffs, where the coach decided to send him out first. His reason? No reason, really. His confidence in Genius? None at all. Genius would then go on a 4-kill rampage against StarTale’s best before losing in a PvP to Avenge. The next day he would skip the playoffs to qualify for WCS EU and pay his own way to make it to the Ro4 of WCS EU Season 3. There, he was eliminated by MC, who told him that he had a dumb brain, but who then used his build to great effect against other protoss later on. Some people live weird and fantastical lives; I’m pretty certain Genius is one of them.

[image loading]


*Many All-Kills were left off this list as they will be discussed in future parts of this article series

Best Coaches


We cannot know what goes on in a team house, how much a coach affects a team, or how exactly he helps a player develop. What we can do is look at their results, evaluate them based on the talent their team has, their counter pick order (to a certain extent) and interviews from their players about their roles on the team. Given those qualifications, SC2 has had 3 coaches that have stood above the rest: Choya, Ryu Won and Kim Min-ki.

Choya


Choya won 2 GSTLs, reached a Ro4, and now coaches the MVP team in Proleague where they have finished 5th, 6th, 7th and 6th in the 4 round robins. What qualifies him as one of the great all time coaches is that in terms of talent, he generally has had some of the weakest lineups on his teams. However, he gets more out of them because of intelligent counter picking in players and maps. In both his GSTL title runs, he had the 5th best team in terms of talent across the board but was always able to create favorable positions for Leenock to clean up in the early stages. Once they got to the finals, GuMiho ended up winning the whole thing. What really stands out however is his Proleague run, where he clearly has the 2nd worst roster out of the 8 teams. Even without a clear ace player, he is able to find favorable matchups or matchups that at least give his players a chance to win. He has gotten the most results of any coach given the level of talent he has had to work with. On top of that he is loved by his team and was willing spend his own money to keep his team afloat, making him also one of the most admirable.

[image loading]


Ryu Won


The coach with the most results by far is Ryu Won. He won two of the early seasons of GSTL with SlayerS and helped them get to the finals of another. Afterwards he moved on to Woongjin Stars in 2013, where he led the team to #1 in the overall round robin. What makes this exceptional is that the Stars had the least amount of ace matches played in the league. They played a total of 5 ace matches in 42 matches total. Considering that it was a Bo7 and the only two “sure” wins they had were in Soulkey and sOs, that meant that the other members of Stars had to pick up at least 2 other wins, often against better players. Ryu Won was able to make the best of his players and often got favorable matches for his players in the line-ups. After the dissolution of the Stars, he went to Jin Air in 2014, where he got the team to every round robin playoffs, winning the second round robin, but was defeated by KT, the eventual winners, in the semi-final of the playoffs.

His worst season was in 2015 PL when he coached KT. They were the PL Champions of 2014, and many considered them favorites going into 2015 as they had Flash (who had been a heavy ace for them in the last 2 years), Zest (the best player from 2014), Stats, (a protoss playing on a top 5 level), Life (winner of BlizzCon) and TY (an above average PL player in the 2014 season going 17-12). Many fans blame Ryu Won for a disappointing season, but looking closer we can see that a lot of the problems come from the decline in performance from multiple key players, as well as a misconception of players' overall skills. First the positives: Zest and Stats did their jobs with 28-15 and 22-12 records respectively. However, the big problem was that there was no reliable third man.

Flash went from the “ace” of KT to a negative record of 14-18. TY was below average at 9-10. Two of the core components of the KT Lineup had effectively stopped working. Life, even when he was the best player in the world, was just an average team league player, and that trend continued here as he scored a measly 12-11. Compare that to the other three top teams who had Rogue, Bbyong and in SKT’s case Dark, Classic and Dream. Put frankly, KT just didn’t have depth beyond Zest and Stats, meaning that when the games got to the ace match, they could only depend on Zest, who suffered 2-5 in ace situations. While there probably were problems in Ryu Won’s coaching of the team, it was pretty clear that the team as a whole could not hope to break past the top 4 without a reliable third man, which they never found.

Finally, the last point in Ryu Won’s favor as a coach was his development skill. Multiple players have credited Ryu Won with increasing their skill and gameplay, including sOs, Soulkey, Woongjin Stars, SlayerS and most notably MMA.

[image loading]
Ryu Won enters the booth after MMA wins his first title in 2011


Kim Min-Ki


The final coach is Kim Min-Ki. He was the coach for the STX lineup and led them, along with INnoVation, to their first and only Proleague title before the team’s dissolution. Much like Ryu Won, he was great at picking line-ups, but instead of having two stars, he just had one super-ace in INnoVation. Despite having a super ace, it rarely got to ace matches for STX and when it did, INnoVation would more often than not clean up. Perhaps his greatest claim to fame is that he developed every single player on his roster. His A-team roster included: INnoVation, Dear, Trap, Classic and hyvaa, four out of five of whom became champions and three of whom became GSL champions. And while teams have every once in awhile raised a player or two to championship contender level (Dark and Dream come to mind in 2015), rarely have so many come out of one coach, which speaks volumes to his scouting and development of them.

[image loading]


Writer: stuchiu
Graphics: lichter
Photos: www.dailyesports.com , Toho Company
Editor: lichter
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TL+ Member
Nixer
Profile Joined July 2011
2774 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 02:17:26
November 24 2015 02:15 GMT
#2
5th image doesn't seem to load.
Graphics
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
November 24 2015 02:22 GMT
#3
refresh and it loads
Moderator
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
November 24 2015 02:23 GMT
#4
On November 24 2015 11:15 Nixer wrote:
5th image doesn't seem to load.


all gifs so your internet may be tired

also points to the person that knows the banner image
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Nixer
Profile Joined July 2011
2774 Posts
November 24 2015 02:40 GMT
#5
It seems like it's just minus in general not loading and timing out for me, nothing wrong with my connection nor does it have anything to do with it being a gif.
Graphics
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
November 24 2015 02:42 GMT
#6
On November 24 2015 11:40 Nixer wrote:
It seems like it's just minus in general not loading and timing out for me, nothing wrong with my connection nor does it have anything to do with it being a gif.


It works for me but I've seen a lot of images from i.minus.com not loading for me on reddit recently.
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
November 24 2015 02:43 GMT
#7
yeah i just switched it to imgur anyway i've had trouble sometimes with minus too
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Nixer
Profile Joined July 2011
2774 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 02:49:36
November 24 2015 02:44 GMT
#8
Ah, thanks.
Header image should be from Seven Samurai if I remember correctly.
Graphics
jubil
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2602 Posts
November 24 2015 02:55 GMT
#9
Welp, happy to see the Symbol and qxc all-kill, sad that I had forgotten about the Billow-bonjwa, and still waiting on the Gumiho GSTL finals allkill of Slayers, all the more great because that very first set was hands-down one of the best games of WoL. Gonna venture a guess that one all-kill that doesn't get mentioned is ZeNEX'Life over Liquid back in 2012 (mostly because those games were pretty bad, Liquid just rolled over and died to Life's breakout performance).

I do overall agree with the selection of coaches, though I really wouldn't focus on choya's recent results in hyping him - although MVP has probably done slightly better than expected, they never really made it far enough to be actually impressive (ie. never making round playoffs), and the MVP players' individual results for 2015 were pretty lackluster too. Compare that to the other two coaches mentioned, who have both produced current individual champions as well as more recent team league titles.
Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
November 24 2015 03:04 GMT
#10
On November 24 2015 11:55 jubil wrote:
I do overall agree with the selection of coaches, though I really wouldn't focus on choya's recent results in hyping him - although MVP has probably done slightly better than expected, they never really made it far enough to be actually impressive (ie. never making round playoffs), and the MVP players' individual results for 2015 were pretty lackluster too. Compare that to the other two coaches mentioned, who have both produced current individual champions as well as more recent team league titles.


It's very harsh to mark Choya down for MVP's performances this year when he's had a markedly lower calibre of player to work with than either Ryu Won / Kim Min-Ki. In coaching SlayerS / Jin Air / KT, Ryu Won has overseen a ridiculous array of talent over the 5 or so years years, while as stu mentioned, that STX lineup is ridiculous in hindsight.

Things are clicking for MVP - you can see the way that players have fired in bits and pieces over the course of the season, whether it's in one-off performances like DeParture, or the way some have had hot streaks at times (Panic / GuMiho / Losira / YongHwa). The easy way to look at it is to compare each player's performance with their showing last year, and in general they've all done better.
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
KtJ
Profile Joined October 2014
United States3514 Posts
November 24 2015 03:12 GMT
#11
Great article, that MMA gif makes me so happy
"I thought I destroyed my CC but it seemed like the only thing I destroyed was Idra's mentality."
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
November 24 2015 03:13 GMT
#12
I feel like there isn't enough credit to coach Kang here. He was incredibly successful.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
November 24 2015 03:17 GMT
#13
On November 24 2015 12:13 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I feel like there isn't enough credit to coach Kang here. He was incredibly successful.

Remember that this article chiefly concerns team leagues. Kang was a good coach, but his GSTL approach was continually perplexing.
AdministratorBreak the chains
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 03:24:22
November 24 2015 03:17 GMT
#14
I enjoyed this article, but in a way I expected more. Maybe I'm just spoiled but I really hope that one day someone tells the story of GSTL from the perspective of the players who would start as Slayers, win two epic GSTLs, fall apart in the finals of their last GSTL due to MMA's arrogance in and out of the game (as far as the narrative goes at least, but also those manner mules against Gumiho...) reconcile, be unified once more by a foreign couple with a vision, come back and against all odds come back and win the final GSTL.

In the background we have first Slayers embodied in Boxer and then MMA, and then MVP incarnate in DRG, with their GSTL matches setting the stage for one of the greatest BO7s of all time. So too do we have the first GSTL demonstrate the power of IM, and Mvp/Squirtle's first epic match (where there too Squirtle attempted to ride a PvT mothership to victory).

THAT seems like the sort of article worthy of being written by Stuichu, the greatest esports writer to ever live. (No offence Zealously, you're awesome too!)

Ahem, but I mean this was pretty good too, I especially enjoyed the Billowy bit.

Edit: Also I feel like even in team leagues, it took a while but EVENTUALLY coach Kang's gamble paid off when they won like three team leagues in a month including beating an unstoppable Taeja at IPLTAC.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
November 24 2015 03:20 GMT
#15
On November 24 2015 12:17 TheDougler wrote:
I enjoyed this article, but in a way I expected more. Maybe I'm just spoiled but I really hope that one day someone tells the story of GSTL from the perspective of the players who would start as Slayers, win two epic GSTLs, fall apart in the finals of their last GSTL due to MMA's arrogance in and out of the game (as far as the narrative goes at least, but also those manner miles against Gumiho...) reconcile, be unified once more by a foreign couple with a vision, come back and against all odds come back and win the final GSTL.

In the background we have first Slayers embodied in Boxer and then MMA, and then MVP incarnate in DRG, with their GSTL matches setting the stage for one of the greatest BO7s of all time. So too do we have the first GSTL demonstrate the power of IM, and Mvp/Squirtle's first epic match (where there too Squirtle attempted to ride a PvT mothership to victory).

THAT seems like the sort of article worthy of being written by Stuichu, the greatest esports writer to ever live. (No offence Zealously, you're awesome too!)

Ahem, but I mean this was pretty good too, I especially enjoyed the Billowy bit.


this is part 1
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
November 24 2015 03:21 GMT
#16
On November 24 2015 12:20 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 12:17 TheDougler wrote:
I enjoyed this article, but in a way I expected more. Maybe I'm just spoiled but I really hope that one day someone tells the story of GSTL from the perspective of the players who would start as Slayers, win two epic GSTLs, fall apart in the finals of their last GSTL due to MMA's arrogance in and out of the game (as far as the narrative goes at least, but also those manner miles against Gumiho...) reconcile, be unified once more by a foreign couple with a vision, come back and against all odds come back and win the final GSTL.

In the background we have first Slayers embodied in Boxer and then MMA, and then MVP incarnate in DRG, with their GSTL matches setting the stage for one of the greatest BO7s of all time. So too do we have the first GSTL demonstrate the power of IM, and Mvp/Squirtle's first epic match (where there too Squirtle attempted to ride a PvT mothership to victory).

THAT seems like the sort of article worthy of being written by Stuichu, the greatest esports writer to ever live. (No offence Zealously, you're awesome too!)

Ahem, but I mean this was pretty good too, I especially enjoyed the Billowy bit.


this is part 1


That is EXACTLY the sort of response I secretly hoped for. Thank you.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 03:24:25
November 24 2015 03:24 GMT
#17
On November 24 2015 12:21 TheDougler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 12:20 lichter wrote:
On November 24 2015 12:17 TheDougler wrote:
I enjoyed this article, but in a way I expected more. Maybe I'm just spoiled but I really hope that one day someone tells the story of GSTL from the perspective of the players who would start as Slayers, win two epic GSTLs, fall apart in the finals of their last GSTL due to MMA's arrogance in and out of the game (as far as the narrative goes at least, but also those manner miles against Gumiho...) reconcile, be unified once more by a foreign couple with a vision, come back and against all odds come back and win the final GSTL.

In the background we have first Slayers embodied in Boxer and then MMA, and then MVP incarnate in DRG, with their GSTL matches setting the stage for one of the greatest BO7s of all time. So too do we have the first GSTL demonstrate the power of IM, and Mvp/Squirtle's first epic match (where there too Squirtle attempted to ride a PvT mothership to victory).

THAT seems like the sort of article worthy of being written by Stuichu, the greatest esports writer to ever live. (No offence Zealously, you're awesome too!)

Ahem, but I mean this was pretty good too, I especially enjoyed the Billowy bit.


this is part 1


That is EXACTLY the sort of response I secretly hoped for. Thank you.


it says so in the thread title -_-''
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
November 24 2015 03:25 GMT
#18
On November 24 2015 12:24 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 12:21 TheDougler wrote:
On November 24 2015 12:20 lichter wrote:
On November 24 2015 12:17 TheDougler wrote:
I enjoyed this article, but in a way I expected more. Maybe I'm just spoiled but I really hope that one day someone tells the story of GSTL from the perspective of the players who would start as Slayers, win two epic GSTLs, fall apart in the finals of their last GSTL due to MMA's arrogance in and out of the game (as far as the narrative goes at least, but also those manner miles against Gumiho...) reconcile, be unified once more by a foreign couple with a vision, come back and against all odds come back and win the final GSTL.

In the background we have first Slayers embodied in Boxer and then MMA, and then MVP incarnate in DRG, with their GSTL matches setting the stage for one of the greatest BO7s of all time. So too do we have the first GSTL demonstrate the power of IM, and Mvp/Squirtle's first epic match (where there too Squirtle attempted to ride a PvT mothership to victory).

THAT seems like the sort of article worthy of being written by Stuichu, the greatest esports writer to ever live. (No offence Zealously, you're awesome too!)

Ahem, but I mean this was pretty good too, I especially enjoyed the Billowy bit.


this is part 1


That is EXACTLY the sort of response I secretly hoped for. Thank you.


it says so in the thread title -_-''


I got that, but I'm hoping part two is a fair bit grander than this, is what I'm saying. I mean this is fine and all, but it doesn't seem to really go anywhere is all.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
November 24 2015 03:31 GMT
#19
On November 24 2015 12:17 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 12:13 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I feel like there isn't enough credit to coach Kang here. He was incredibly successful.

Remember that this article chiefly concerns team leagues. Kang was a good coach, but his GSTL approach was continually perplexing.


Oh I thought it was coaches over all. I guess the list makes more sense strictly talking about team leagues
Fecalfeast
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada11355 Posts
November 24 2015 03:43 GMT
#20
I remember watching the QXC all kill live...

Is this what old people feel like remembering the good old days?
ModeratorINFLATE YOUR POST COUNT; PLAY TL MAFIA
Sjokola
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands800 Posts
November 24 2015 04:03 GMT
#21
omg liquid bias.... Taeja worst player ever!!!!111 Wait aren't we doing it this time? Ok then...

Nice read brings back memories. Like to a time where I could watch korean sc more often
Circumstance
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States11403 Posts
November 24 2015 04:18 GMT
#22
That Genius 4-kill was so bizarre, especially since the playoffs of that season then followed up with back-to-back all-kills by IM over Azubu and Axiom-Acer.
The world is better when every background has a chance.
jubil
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2602 Posts
November 24 2015 04:30 GMT
#23
On November 24 2015 12:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 11:55 jubil wrote:
I do overall agree with the selection of coaches, though I really wouldn't focus on choya's recent results in hyping him - although MVP has probably done slightly better than expected, they never really made it far enough to be actually impressive (ie. never making round playoffs), and the MVP players' individual results for 2015 were pretty lackluster too. Compare that to the other two coaches mentioned, who have both produced current individual champions as well as more recent team league titles.


It's very harsh to mark Choya down for MVP's performances this year when he's had a markedly lower calibre of player to work with than either Ryu Won / Kim Min-Ki. In coaching SlayerS / Jin Air / KT, Ryu Won has overseen a ridiculous array of talent over the 5 or so years years, while as stu mentioned, that STX lineup is ridiculous in hindsight.

Things are clicking for MVP - you can see the way that players have fired in bits and pieces over the course of the season, whether it's in one-off performances like DeParture, or the way some have had hot streaks at times (Panic / GuMiho / Losira / YongHwa). The easy way to look at it is to compare each player's performance with their showing last year, and in general they've all done better.


Good points, I just personally feel that it's hard to distinguish good/decent results from previously lower level players as being good coaching or just a lucky break from the player himself. In my opinion, turning bad players into average ones is less impressive than average players into durable stars. For example, as the article mentions, I personally was impressed by SKT's oov developing Dream and Dark from pretty similarly average players into championship-level ones.

Comparing team results, I just don't see MVP's results being much different from the team I'd call their closest in individual results, Samsung, and it's a little ironic for the article to say that his PL results last year were notable because he had the second weakest team talent wise when at the end of the day the final placement of MVP points-wise was....second to last.

Basically, I do think choya's a good coach and a great guy to support, and in WoL was one of the great coaches, but I'll have to see more out of the current MVP lineup before calling his current results especially notable.
Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
November 24 2015 04:43 GMT
#24
On November 24 2015 13:30 jubil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 12:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
On November 24 2015 11:55 jubil wrote:
I do overall agree with the selection of coaches, though I really wouldn't focus on choya's recent results in hyping him - although MVP has probably done slightly better than expected, they never really made it far enough to be actually impressive (ie. never making round playoffs), and the MVP players' individual results for 2015 were pretty lackluster too. Compare that to the other two coaches mentioned, who have both produced current individual champions as well as more recent team league titles.


It's very harsh to mark Choya down for MVP's performances this year when he's had a markedly lower calibre of player to work with than either Ryu Won / Kim Min-Ki. In coaching SlayerS / Jin Air / KT, Ryu Won has overseen a ridiculous array of talent over the 5 or so years years, while as stu mentioned, that STX lineup is ridiculous in hindsight.

Things are clicking for MVP - you can see the way that players have fired in bits and pieces over the course of the season, whether it's in one-off performances like DeParture, or the way some have had hot streaks at times (Panic / GuMiho / Losira / YongHwa). The easy way to look at it is to compare each player's performance with their showing last year, and in general they've all done better.


Good points, I just personally feel that it's hard to distinguish good/decent results from previously lower level players as being good coaching or just a lucky break from the player himself. In my opinion, turning bad players into average ones is less impressive than average players into durable stars. For example, as the article mentions, I personally was impressed by SKT's oov developing Dream and Dark from pretty similarly average players into championship-level ones.

Comparing team results, I just don't see MVP's results being much different from the team I'd call their closest in individual results, Samsung, and it's a little ironic for the article to say that his PL results last year were notable because he had the second weakest team talent wise when at the end of the day the final placement of MVP points-wise was....second to last.

Basically, I do think choya's a good coach and a great guy to support, and in WoL was one of the great coaches, but I'll have to see more out of the current MVP lineup before calling his current results especially notable.


I think we agree mostly - MVP's main issue is that they never got everybody firing at once in PL, whether it was Losira + YongHwa carrying in R1 or GuMiho performing near the end. It is notable though that individually, both Losira and DeParture got championships at Asus ROG / Gfinity, however much you rate the competition on offer there, while GuMi and MarineKing (!) got silvers in the Blizzcon 2014 - 2015 period. I do agree that it's hard to tell how much the coaching is to do with success, but when pretty much everyone raised their standards this year compared to 2014, it's hard to say he's done a bad job.
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
swissman777
Profile Joined September 2014
1106 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 06:47:16
November 24 2015 06:47 GMT
#25
I wonder what Coach Kim is doing now. Hope we have someone like him later for the ultimate coach rivalry with Ryu Won.
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 11:40:40
November 24 2015 11:36 GMT
#26
qxc and Billowy's all-kills have to be the biggest upsets of all-time along with Sjow randomly knocking Life out at Dreamhack.

Also Symbol's reverse all-kill will go down as one of the best nights of sc2 ever and that's coming from a massive IM fan. Losira was so close to just proceeding with the all-kill but Symbol just wouldn't die. Man I miss GSTL
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
November 24 2015 12:14 GMT
#27
I miss qxc, that allkill is up there for my all time favorite moments in esports.
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
November 24 2015 12:14 GMT
#28
"The then pulled off the impossible"

He did not. He pulled off the improbable. The impossible, by definition, is not possible.

It was perhaps "seemingly impossible". But not just impossible.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
November 24 2015 12:41 GMT
#29
I really enjoyed the article! I know this coach doesn't fit here, but the most historic SC coach "Park" retired and should have something written about him. PM me if you'd like me to do it.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
November 24 2015 12:44 GMT
#30
didn't he move to LoL china, not "retire"
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Sjokola
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands800 Posts
November 24 2015 12:49 GMT
#31
On November 24 2015 21:14 [F_]aths wrote:
"The then pulled off the impossible"

He did not. He pulled off the improbable. The impossible, by definition, is not possible.

It was perhaps "seemingly impossible". But not just impossible.

Yeah that sounds way better
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
November 24 2015 13:37 GMT
#32
On November 24 2015 21:44 lichter wrote:
didn't he move to LoL china, not "retire"


He did move to the eldorado yeah.
Zest fanboy.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
November 24 2015 13:59 GMT
#33
On November 24 2015 21:14 [F_]aths wrote:
"The then pulled off the impossible"

He did not. He pulled off the improbable. The impossible, by definition, is not possible.

It was perhaps "seemingly impossible". But not just impossible.


If it makes you feel better, put a figuratively or substitute the with what everyone thought was. It doesn't mean the literally impossible, it's a figure of speech
AdministratorBreak the chains
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
November 24 2015 14:01 GMT
#34
no no IT WAS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE i am all about the hyperbole
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13974 Posts
November 24 2015 14:17 GMT
#35
I miss hyvaa
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Mistakes
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1102 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 19:16:11
November 24 2015 19:15 GMT
#36
I miss Hyvaa.

EDIT: LOL I didn't even see your post Cricketer

On November 24 2015 23:17 Cricketer12 wrote:
I miss hyvaa

StarCraft | www.psistorm.com | www.twitter.com/MistakesSC | www.twitch.tv/MistakesSC | Seattle
robson1
Profile Joined March 2013
3632 Posts
November 24 2015 20:03 GMT
#37
I love Genius so god damn much.
Genius is that funny scientist who no one takes seriously until he kills you with a flame throwing trumpet. - stuchiu 2013
rotta
Profile Joined December 2011
5586 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 20:10:18
November 24 2015 20:09 GMT
#38
On November 24 2015 23:17 Cricketer12 wrote:
I miss hyvaa

Me too, hearing the casters talking about "hive-a" always made me smile.



Come back to LotV!
don't wall off against random
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13974 Posts
November 24 2015 22:39 GMT
#39
On November 25 2015 04:15 Mistakes wrote:
I miss Hyvaa.

EDIT: LOL I didn't even see your post Cricketer

Show nested quote +
On November 24 2015 23:17 Cricketer12 wrote:
I miss hyvaa


Loool ive only seen this type of thing in Blizzcon threads. But those are 98% shitposts
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
November 24 2015 23:29 GMT
#40
Whoa that QXC gif followed an all kill of a Korean team? What the shit?

OK that's pretty friggin rad.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
kochanfe
Profile Joined July 2011
Micronesia1338 Posts
November 24 2015 23:55 GMT
#41
Great write-up, thanks a lot!
"The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long." - Lao Tzu
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13974 Posts
November 25 2015 05:38 GMT
#42
On November 25 2015 08:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
Whoa that QXC gif followed an all kill of a Korean team? What the shit?

OK that's pretty friggin rad.

This is basic sc2 history, wasted plz.
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
OzCrescendo
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Australia31 Posts
November 26 2015 14:46 GMT
#43
On November 24 2015 11:23 lichter wrote:

also points to the person that knows the banner image



That's the back of Tatsuya Nakadai in the brilliant movie Sword of Doom.

I can happily watch any jidaigeki film multiple times if they have him or Toshiro Mifune in them.
All three races are OP. That's the fun of the game! See https://twitter.com/x5_Crescendo for SEA SC2 news and fanboy gleetweets
FlyingSteaks
Profile Joined April 2012
Brazil433 Posts
November 27 2015 01:24 GMT
#44
Cheering for STX in that season was so awesome, I dunno why I decided to cheer for them, but, going from 0 expectations to winning it was out of this world
Avocadi
Profile Joined October 2015
11 Posts
November 28 2015 00:20 GMT
#45
Woah, sort of a disrispect to not put Coach Park on the list. Even if he switched esports titles, his tenure as a proleague coach was very impressive. You could tell the effort and personal detail he put into managing his players. I would put him as the top sc2 coach of all time personally.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-29 06:13:13
November 29 2015 06:12 GMT
#46
Sigh I want more All Kill format in Teamleagues T.T . Or a 2v2 or Archonmode game if its Clanwar style.
Gammkrabb
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden42 Posts
November 29 2015 06:23 GMT
#47
How about TY?

My wife for hire
Gammkrabb
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden42 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-29 06:27:19
November 29 2015 06:25 GMT
#48
How about TY?

Link
TY vs CJ Entus @Proleague

Damn wish I would find all vods to the Allkills u link, kinda hard to find GSTL games in general, Like the link 2014 and now this 2015 I always made SPL in order for ppl and me. But i FOund it hard to get GSTL games since Proleague format is the best SC possible.
My wife for hire
swissman777
Profile Joined September 2014
1106 Posts
December 03 2015 04:24 GMT
#49
Waiting for part 2! :D
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
December 03 2015 04:33 GMT
#50
On December 03 2015 13:24 swissman777 wrote:
Waiting for part 2! :D


Likely tomorrow
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