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France13004 Posts
On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I think it's not really a problem of attitude, just a not so clever choice from Lilbow.
He probably knew on the inside that he doesn't have what it takes to beat such a player as Life in the most meaningful tournament of HotS (at least in 2015) but could not completely accept the idea. Trying his best then failing would confirm for sure he was right, but not practicing would allow him to think he could have beaten life had he practiced. Except it's not really a problem if he can't beat Life, fans for sure would not blame him had he tried his best so it was a win win situation.
If anything, this whole debacle confirms that the only french player worthy of the title 'Napoleon' or a 'pun version' of it, is Stephano.
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On November 03 2015 07:30 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude. I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision  Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
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On November 03 2015 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude. I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Personally, I think it's both.
I think what needs to change first is the attitude of the fans. When fans demand personality and local favorites more than they demand results it ultimately leads to a scene that is fractured, divided and disorganized.
What has to matter more than ANYTHING ELSE is results. The minute that the entire Starcraft scene can stand together on the same stage and say results matter more than your personality or where you come from then the foreign scene will improve.
The scene in Korea is cutthroat. It's hard, and it's fast. Players that can't keep up are left behind. It's that very maelstrom that produces such quality play and quality players. The foreign scene needs to become that if it ever hopes to compete.
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Shit like this is why giving foreigners hand outs pisses me off, they waste the gifts they are given. The TLO point especially.
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On November 03 2015 07:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Shit like this is why giving foreigners hand outs pisses me off, they waste the gifts they are given. The TLO point especially.
Especially when there are much more deserving players in Korea like soO who could've come instead.
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On November 03 2015 07:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:30 Wuster wrote:On November 03 2015 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude. I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth. TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough.
But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
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On November 03 2015 07:37 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:30 Wuster wrote:On November 03 2015 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude. I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth. TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils. Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough. But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
Why would TLO lie?
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On November 03 2015 07:36 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Shit like this is why giving foreigners hand outs pisses me off, they waste the gifts they are given. The TLO point especially. Especially when there are much more deserving players in Korea like soO who could've come instead.
I don't think this is really a point, soO knew the rules and he didn't perform well in GSL/SSL. Lilbow hasn't stolen anything from anybody, man I have to say his WCS season 3 performance was quite stellar, though he had lucky games.
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On November 03 2015 07:37 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:30 Wuster wrote:On November 03 2015 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude. I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth. TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils. Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough. But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
Lilbow made up his mind to lose after the 3rd game he played over a month ago. It makes sense that he wouldn't take practice partners.
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On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote:
armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
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On November 03 2015 07:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:37 Wuster wrote:On November 03 2015 07:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:30 Wuster wrote:On November 03 2015 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote:
Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question. IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it. It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene. This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude. I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth. TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils. Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough. But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation. Why would TLO lie?
Because he was mad? Because people lied to him (random pro - "can you believe that dumbass Lilbow? I asked him if he wanted to practice and he said no")? Because he heard rumors that weren't true about Lilbow?
Don't get me wrong, I believe TLO, but that's still just belief =p.
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On November 03 2015 07:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote:
armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches. I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
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A possible scenario is Lilbow turns off TLO/Snute/Elazer etc offers to practice until Blizzcon because he plans to trip to Korea and train on ladder there ; when he discovers let's say three weeks later than other Blizzcon players and their practice partners don't play ladder but only train via customs and that the KR ladder is too soft to help him practice, TLO/Snute/Elazer have already planned their switching to LotV and it's too late.
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On November 03 2015 07:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:
People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on.
He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene.
Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon
So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing.
So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets. This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around. Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways. By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't.
The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon.
I am sure he knew it and what it means.
He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face.
It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
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On November 03 2015 07:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote:
armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches. I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much. I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
Yeah pretty much.
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On November 03 2015 07:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:02 Big J wrote:On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:
People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on.
He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene.
Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon
So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing.
So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets. This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around. Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways. By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better. How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
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It's terrible to say but yeah he should not have been "that honest" in the interview. Though to be fair it wouldn't have mattered if he had said so there, what makes it a disappointment is that he told the crowd Blizzcon was the only thing important even before winning the season's finals.
But it's ok to be bad at Public Relations. For the game itself I see it as a huge strategy mistake, he had to focus on one map to prove the foreigner hype was not in vain.
He was against Life, he knows how Life plays and we all do: it was at least 70% certain the man would go mass zerglings so as to a) see if Lilbow was a joke or a threat b) not reveal any advanced strats.
He played like Life would not go mass zerglings, so he failed miserably.
Still want to see him perform in LOTV so I hope he learns a lot from this loss.
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On November 03 2015 07:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote:
armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches. I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much. I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^ Yeah pretty much.
He probably didn't want that people think he performs that badly in a tournament he practiced for.
Better have an excuse ready.
Of course he would have gotten much less hate if he didn't say anything but for him it could be equally shameful when people think he's just bad
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no, it was pretty embarassing, for lilbow, for the foreign scene, even for blizzard & this whole wcs system. A player can do whatever he wants, its their right, but theres no guarantee lilbow will ever make it this far again. Why u dont give it ur all why u have the chance is just disappointing. As time goes on, im pretty sure lilbow will come to regret this.
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On November 03 2015 07:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 07:49 Big J wrote:On November 03 2015 07:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 07:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote:
armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches. I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much. I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^ Yeah pretty much. He probably didn't want that people think he performs that badly in a tournament he practiced for. Better have an excuse ready. Of course he would have gotten much less hate if he didn't say anything but for him it could be equally shameful when people think he's just bad
Yeah I think so too. Like, he was kind of leading up to losing the game with his comments. It massively backfired, especially with the aftergame tweet.
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EPT
