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CatZ wrote a really nice article about WCS, region lock and how the system could improve for 2016 alongside the ladder. It's really too long to put it here, so have a look at http://root-gaming.com/region-lock/home/page/2
The most important points in my opinion:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dFYG7ck.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GcfOJUo.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RJst7Ls.png)
Personally, I agree with him and think the current system is already close to perfect. Now, as mentioned by CatZ, we only have to limit the number of Koreans that compete in WCS in some way, so NA doesn't get overrun. I also would love to see the proposed ladder changes, awarding WCS points for the ladder and getting rid of barcodes sounds awesome! NA ladder right now is dead on the pro level and this has to change as fast as possible in my opinion.
What are your thoughts?
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On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts?
If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous.
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On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous.
This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts.
Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion.
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On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion.
Thanks for the advice, kiddo. <3
User was temp banned for this post.
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i know Blizzard goes to this site and reads it pretty carefully. i don't know if the new e-Sports subsidiary ATVI set up will do the same thing. although discussion may be interesting to engage in i do not know if its going to be taken under consideration by the new powers that be.
everything is up for grabs until we know this new ATVI subsidiary's full scope of responsibilities.
also, you've only been a TL member for only 4 years. furthermore. you only have 14,000 posts, therefore, 14CC will be watching you very carefully for any "cancerous advertising" you might try to slip into this thread. 
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On October 25 2015 05:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:i know Blizzard goes to this site and reads it pretty carefully. i don't know if the new e-Sports subsidiary ATVI set up will do the same thing. although discussion may be interesting to engage in i do not know if its going to be taken under consideration by the new powers that be. everything is up for grabs until we know this new ATVI subsidiary's full scope of responsibilities. also, you've only been a TL member for only 4 years. furthermore. you only have 14,000 posts, therefore, 14CC will be watching you very carefully for any "cancerous advertising" you might try to slip into this thread.
Ah yes, that's a good point. Maybe the new esports section is already planning out how WCS will work in 2016, but I think CoD is their focus for now right?. Anyway I still hope they will take community feedback into consideration, but maybe they have even better ideas. The guy in charge is really experienced from what I heard, but I'm sure he lacks knowledge when it comes to the specifics of each game and their scenes.
And yes I will have to be more carful now, with 14CC around.
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The ladder solution would be awesome. It could greatly improve foreigners practice, it would be great for everyone.
Long term this would be really good.
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On October 25 2015 04:43 14CC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. Thanks for the advice, kiddo. <3
Take a deep breath. Not very mature behaviour.
Okay, to the topic. I will say, that CatZ kind of changed my opinion with the fact that his solution sounds
reasonable. My top priority for sc2 is its well beeing(even growing) and i strongly believe that the non-korean scene plays a huge role in that. Successful foreigner brings fame and viewers and ultimatly sponsors get involved with money.
Coming back to his ladder suggestions, i think on the paper it sounds really nice. I think giving out some
WCS points by ladder can be a really great thing, encouraging top players to engage on each ladder.
The ladder might really be the most important infrastructure after all.
Cheers and thanks CatZ. Now all we can do is hoping that Blizzard is listening and proceeding one way or another.
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hopefully blizzard listens
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On October 25 2015 05:19 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 05:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:i know Blizzard goes to this site and reads it pretty carefully. i don't know if the new e-Sports subsidiary ATVI set up will do the same thing. although discussion may be interesting to engage in i do not know if its going to be taken under consideration by the new powers that be. everything is up for grabs until we know this new ATVI subsidiary's full scope of responsibilities. also, you've only been a TL member for only 4 years. furthermore. you only have 14,000 posts, therefore, 14CC will be watching you very carefully for any "cancerous advertising" you might try to slip into this thread. Ah yes, that's a good point. Maybe the new esports section is already planning out how WCS will work in 2016, but I think CoD is their focus for now right?. Anyway I still hope they will take community feedback into consideration, but maybe they have even better ideas. The guy in charge is really experienced from what I heard, but I'm sure he lacks knowledge when it comes to the specifics of each game and their scenes. And yes I will have to be more carful now, with 14CC around.
Mike Sepso is a former co-founder of MLG in 2002. So lot's of experience there.
Steve Bornstein is a sports TV executive guy.
I hope they listen carefully.. i suspect a guy like Sepso knows when to listen and when to ignore the community. generally speaking, i thought MLG did a great job with SC2.
Catz has some good suggestions. Even if they do not implement them exactly as he requests i hope they use the stuff he is suggesting to influence their own new initiatives.
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![[image loading]](http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/67419/2.0) <3
The future is now!
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think that there are murky waters you could find yourself in if you limit the amount of players per team that could play in a different region. You run into the fact that new companies wouldn't have an incentive to start a team with players that aren't in their official region, as many teams find local sponsors. Its hard to appeal your product as a sponsor to the masses if said product isn't available in the location of said player competing.
I do like the idea that there would be a player cap for non region players. It would require WCS to be reshuffled qualifier wise but ultimately having a tournament during the offseason which would determine who would get a WCS spot would be pretty hype in and of itself.
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Hello TL! and thanks for starting a thread about this, however and as much as you may think those are the most important points to sum up the article, I'd like to encourage everyone to read the whole thing before posting your opinion.
It took me over 30 hours to put this together. (incluiding writing, organizing my thoughts, searching for evidence and precedent to back my arguments and opinions, getting quotes from some of the best WCS players in the system, working on graphics, color schemes, tying lose ends and getting my points across in an organized manner with the help of Rob from production).
I believe that the article is as long as it needs to be to get all of these points across, so please, I encourage you to - read the whole thing before discussing it. because a summary just won't do it justice.
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On October 25 2015 05:55 IceBerrY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:43 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. Thanks for the advice, kiddo. <3 Take a deep breath. Not very mature behaviour. Okay, to the topic. I will say, that CatZ kind of changed my opinion with the fact that his solution sounds reasonable. My top priority for sc2 is its well beeing(even growing) and i strongly believe that the non-korean scene plays a huge role in that. Successful foreigner brings fame and viewers and ultimatly sponsors get involved with money. Coming back to his ladder suggestions, i think on the paper it sounds really nice. I think giving out some WCS points by ladder can be a really great thing, encouraging top players to engage on each ladder. The ladder might really be the most important infrastructure after all. Cheers and thanks CatZ. Now all we can do is hoping that Blizzard is listening and proceeding one way or another.
Cheers man and thank you, not just for having a flexible open mind but for saying that I (kind of) changed your opinion, this type of comment is my favorite kind to read because it makes me feel like the article could actually make a difference, the reason it is this long is to provide as much perspective as possible to... well pretty much everyone who isn't already a professional player in the WCS system, I realize that information is scarce and opinions on these type of subject can often times be polarizing. I wanted to make sure that people reading understood that my opinion isn't and has never been black or white, it is a little bit more complicated and long than that because there are so many factors that we need to take into consideration, I am really happy with the community's reception to the article in general. So, again - thank you, it really means a lot.
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On October 25 2015 08:14 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 05:55 IceBerrY wrote:On October 25 2015 04:43 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. Thanks for the advice, kiddo. <3 Take a deep breath. Not very mature behaviour. Okay, to the topic. I will say, that CatZ kind of changed my opinion with the fact that his solution sounds reasonable. My top priority for sc2 is its well beeing(even growing) and i strongly believe that the non-korean scene plays a huge role in that. Successful foreigner brings fame and viewers and ultimatly sponsors get involved with money. Coming back to his ladder suggestions, i think on the paper it sounds really nice. I think giving out some WCS points by ladder can be a really great thing, encouraging top players to engage on each ladder. The ladder might really be the most important infrastructure after all. Cheers and thanks CatZ. Now all we can do is hoping that Blizzard is listening and proceeding one way or another. Cheers man and thank you, not just for having a flexible open mind but for saying that I (kind of) changed your opinion, this type of comment is my favorite kind to read because it makes me feel like the article could actually make a difference, the reason it is this long is to provide as much perspective as possible to... well pretty much everyone who isn't already a professional player in the WCS system, I realize that information is scarce and opinions on these type of subject can often times be polarizing. I wanted to make sure that people reading understood that my opinion isn't and has never been black or white, it is a little bit more complicated and long than that because there are so many factors that we need to take into consideration, I am really happy with the community's reception to the article in general. So, again - thank you, it really means a lot.
Just wanted to let you know, Catz, that you changed my mind as well. I previously thought that the 2013/2014 system was the best WCS system, but after reading your article, I've come to believe otherwise. You articulated quite well why the WCS 2015 was the best one for foreigners to date.
By far my favorite part was the proposed changes to ladder. Ladder giving WCS points, encouraging better players to play on NA or EU, and maybe best of all thereby eliminating barcodes would be amazing.
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Great article. I love the ladder wcs points idea.
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PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, BLIZZARD READ THIS!!!!
I 100% agree with catz here, idk how you could argue against this well thought out series of suggestions.
I think keeping a fee Koreans in WCS makes for a very exciting season, as the story line of Korean vs foreigner is exciting. The issue is when we have too many Koreans coming over. I think the number of Koreans last season was about perfect, and we saw one of the most exciting wcs season of all time as a result.
The ladder suggestion is brilliant, the issue of Koreans in wcs is not so bad if the Koreans are actually practicing on the local ladder!
I love the idea of not having barcode vs barcode all the time for streaming. I think streams are far more exciting when the viewers know who the streamer is playing against. I still remember the fun times when Demuslim, Idra, and huk were all streaming together it was fun to actually know who was playing instead of, "oh Demu is up against random zerg"
Great suggestions I really hope we get this for wcs 2016, that would be the dream.
Everyone who agrees lets try to make this happen! tell blizz we want ladder incentive!
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On October 25 2015 08:14 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 05:55 IceBerrY wrote:On October 25 2015 04:43 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. Thanks for the advice, kiddo. <3 Take a deep breath. Not very mature behaviour. Okay, to the topic. I will say, that CatZ kind of changed my opinion with the fact that his solution sounds reasonable. My top priority for sc2 is its well beeing(even growing) and i strongly believe that the non-korean scene plays a huge role in that. Successful foreigner brings fame and viewers and ultimatly sponsors get involved with money. Coming back to his ladder suggestions, i think on the paper it sounds really nice. I think giving out some WCS points by ladder can be a really great thing, encouraging top players to engage on each ladder. The ladder might really be the most important infrastructure after all. Cheers and thanks CatZ. Now all we can do is hoping that Blizzard is listening and proceeding one way or another. Cheers man and thank you, not just for having a flexible open mind but for saying that I (kind of) changed your opinion, this type of comment is my favorite kind to read because it makes me feel like the article could actually make a difference, the reason it is this long is to provide as much perspective as possible to... well pretty much everyone who isn't already a professional player in the WCS system, I realize that information is scarce and opinions on these type of subject can often times be polarizing. I wanted to make sure that people reading understood that my opinion isn't and has never been black or white, it is a little bit more complicated and long than that because there are so many factors that we need to take into consideration, I am really happy with the community's reception to the article in general. So, again - thank you, it really means a lot.
Your article was well written, so i guess it did his job.
I really hope that it gets a little bit more attention, i know through twitter that it took you quite some time to get it altogether.
Would be nice if some more would give their opinion for a healthy discussion.
Cheers!
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
how many korean players are on Root?
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On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote:
how many korean players are on Root?
Well Hydra. So one, if i remember it correctly.
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He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote:
He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no.
It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players.
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Being a low-level (plat/dia) player I never appreciated the differences between the ladders. The pro-player opinions that CatZ cites in his article are really eye-opening for me and makes me support the idea of making ladder performance matter in the WCS system. At the very least, this will make the ladder something more than a way of "competing for empty points and useless portraits".
I wonder if this should not be extended a bit. WCS points themselves don't necessarily matter if there is few of them. For example, if being top1 GM was equal to winning a major WCS tournament and being top16 GM was equal to getting to Ro16 of such tournament, the incentive would be there, but not neccesarily a huge one.
What if being topN (top64? top128?) gave a "bye" or a similar perk in WCS qualifiers? This would:
- give another incentive to play ladder for up-and-coming players, as it takes away the argument "Why play ladder to win the season, if I still won't get to Blizzcon without winning a lot of other tournaments"
- be another method of "de-barcoding" the ladder,
- ultimately, help grow the number of players involved in the WCS system.
Otherwise, I totally agree with CatZ. As it is in any industry, people will become seriously involved only if there is an opportunity to make a living. I don't care if WCS championship is "worth less" than GSL championship. I also don't care that WCS might provide lower-level games (though the last WCS Finals in Krakow showed that foreigner-dominated WCS can be awesome and pretty high-level). This is nothing special in any sport. Compare NBA championship to literally any other national championship in basketball - do people stop playing probasketball in other countries? No, because there are sponsors, leagues, fans and ultimately money to earn. Let's make it so in Starcraft.
EDIT: The criticism referring to cheating seems valid. However, I consider it obvious that IF ladder is expected to matter something in WCS, the anti-cheating activity on Blizzard's side would have to increase. The effect of patch 3.0 will not last forever.
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4137 Posts
I hope they change the prizepool. I dont think its great to catch $4,5k if you are in top32. reduce it to 4k and give that money to 1-4th places, maybe 5th -8th places too.
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On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote:
He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no. It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players.
Well that would be another incentive for Blizzard to take hacking really seriously. For any player that wants to receive WCS points for his ladder rank, extra measures could be taken. Let's say the top32 ranks award WCS points, but every player has to send in their replays or can randomly be requested by Blizzard to do so. Also hackers get busted really fast by the other players on that level of play.
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It's a good article with plenty of valid points. The one thing I don't think it touches on is however, is the fact that Koreans are wanting to come over to play WCS largely to due top heavy prize pools in Korea so unless you're 'herO', 'Life', 'INnoVation' tier you're going to struggle to make any money in Korea especially if you're a B-teamer.
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On October 25 2015 21:25 Dingodile wrote:
I hope they change the prizepool. I dont think its great to catch $4,5k if you are in top32. reduce it to 4k and give that money to 1-4th places, maybe 5th -8th places too.
Do you mind to elaborate why this would be good?
I personally believe its better if a wide range of players get some money, so that more players are able to play
this game for a living.
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Great article. Thanks for your thoughts CatZ.
Personally I feel that soft region lock is working out for EU, but not for NA. The level of standard of EU compared to NA is higher, and because of that top EU players can definitely handle some B-Team Koreans that are seeking to change region.
If we look at EU region :
EU Challenger Season 3
- 28 Participants. 14 Qualified, 1 of them which is Korean.
- The only Korean is ForGG. He has been living in EU for the longest time I can remember, and at this point he is pretty much an EU player and there is zero reason to be against him. He is probably one of the players that helped the EU scene grow since the old days.
- Players who can beat B-tier Koreans, such as Showtime, Zanster, Petraeus
- Players who can beat A-tier Koreans (Hydra, Polt, Jaedong) such as Mana and Lilbow. They are the players that have an actual chance to beat top tier Koreans (Top Korean players from KR region), even if may not be that high.
If you look at the above list you can see that EU region is actually quite good and can handle small number of Koreans. So far they only have 1, but I think they can have up to 3-4 B/A-tier Koreans and still put up a decent fight, and it can actually benefit the scene and help improve the level of play there. This WCS season was actually a great one to display that, watching foreigner final was hype as hell.
On the other hand, if we look at NA scene:
NA Challenger Season 3
- 14 Participants, 4 of which were Koreans
- 2 B-tier Koreans (Violet & Stardust) and 2 A-tier Koreans (Jaedong & Polt)
- 3 out of 4 Koreans qualified, with Stardust Losing to Neeb
- Among the 4 other foreigner that qualified, 2 of them were knocked out of group stages 0-2 (Kane & Masa).
- Neither of them played against Koreans. Kane lost to iAsonu (China) and Zanster (EU), while Masa lost to MarineLorD (EU) and iaguz (SEA).
- Neeb was probably the best non-Korean NA player in this season of WCS. Won against Shana (China), and even beat Stardust 3-2 in the qualifier, but then thanks to bracket luck got matched twice against the eventual WCS Champion so its definitely excusable.
- Hitman managed to plow his way through with his gimmicks and cheesy play, but he didn't get to play offline so I guess there isn't much to say for him.
I think the above example pretty much sums up the state of the NA scene. Maybe back in the past when we had some NA hopes like Scarlett, or if you go further back Idra and Huk, NA scene was probably even, or better than EU scene. But now, EU scene is generally more competitive than NA scene,
When NA pros can't even compete against EU pros, or even SEA/China pros you can't expect them to compete against Korean B-teamers. Maybe one of the reason EU has less Korean player is because it is seen as being more competitive and Koreans want to play in a easier region (and probably its harder to get visa in EU).
The benefit of having Korean players in a region only comes when the region is able to compete with at least the Korean B-teamers. EU is a great example of this, and actually I think EU can actually do better with 1-2 more Koreans, and actually help out the scene by providing them with practice partner of slightly higher skill to compete against. On the other hand, I think having Korean pros in NA isn't really helping out the scene, just because the skill gap is too large (I guess Neeb and Hitman are the only exception here). I think they need hard region locking and taking some steps to improve the region overall before softening the region lock.
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On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote:
He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no. It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players.
yep, it's just like what? The funny thing is CatZ out of anybody knows about TL's Star League and look at how many people we caught hacking back then too. Fuck, even players who wouldn't expect to win trade and shit did it.
No, we're not going back to the WC3 days allowing players to get through ladder or KBK. No dice. There is just too much shit that can go down and at least this way we can look at the online samples from qualifiers and look at those closely to limit the bullshit we're going to have to sift through.
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On October 26 2015 01:18 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote:On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote:
He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no. It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players. yep, it's just like what? The funny thing is CatZ out of anybody knows about TL's Star League and look at how many people we caught hacking back then too. Fuck, even players who wouldn't expect to win trade and shit did it. No, we're not going back to the WC3 days allowing players to get through ladder or KBK. No dice. There is just too much shit that can go down and at least this way we can look at the online samples from qualifiers and look at those closely to limit the bullshit we're going to have to sift through.
On October 25 2015 21:46 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote:On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote:
He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no. It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players. Well that would be another incentive for Blizzard to take hacking really seriously. For any player that wants to receive WCS points for his ladder rank, extra measures could be taken. Let's say the top32 ranks award WCS points, but every player has to send in their replays or can randomly be requested by Blizzard to do so. Also hackers get busted really fast by the other players on that level of play.
Hacking is always going to be there whether we like it or not. Doing what we're currently doing makes the job a little easier when it comes to the WCS at least. You will never win by trying to stop hacking altogether. The best we can do against the cheaters is looking at them under a microscope.
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On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote:
how many korean players are on Root?
One right now (hydra), over time we've had:
Sage - Lived @ ROOT house and played WCS system
YuGiOh - Lived in KR and played GSL system
SuperNova - Lived in KR and played GSL system *
Hydra - Lives @ ROOT house and plays WCS system
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4137 Posts
On October 25 2015 21:48 IceBerrY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 21:25 Dingodile wrote:
I hope they change the prizepool. I dont think its great to catch $4,5k if you are in top32. reduce it to 4k and give that money to 1-4th places, maybe 5th -8th places too. Do you mind to elaborate why this would be good? I personally believe its better if a wide range of players get some money, so that more players are able to play this game for a living.
Dont you feel weird if you get 8k for 5th place while someone gets 4,5k for 32nd place?
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On October 26 2015 01:18 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote:On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote:
He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it.
Just no. It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players. yep, it's just like what? The funny thing is CatZ out of anybody knows about TL's Star League and look at how many people we caught hacking back then too. Fuck, even players who wouldn't expect to win trade and shit did it. No, we're not going back to the WC3 days allowing players to get through ladder or KBK. No dice. There is just too much shit that can go down and at least this way we can look at the online samples from qualifiers and look at those closely to limit the bullshit we're going to have to sift through.
Ok so, I wouldn't worry too much about hackers, and the ladder is a big place regardless. The ladder solution, realistically only applies to less than a handfull of players that will potentially use the points to cash for blizzcon, there won't be less or more hackers because of it, it'll just give the ladder more meaning. I wouldnt be concerned about cheaters because they can't win offline events and will never make it to blizzcon even if they finish #1 every season, and if there was someone hacking at the very top i'm sure we'll find them if blizzard doesn't.
Also hackers would deny points to everyone equally on average, except maybe streamers but that's a minority that would get affected and most streamers probably won't be making it to blizzcon anyway (rip me)
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On October 26 2015 03:37 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 21:48 IceBerrY wrote:On October 25 2015 21:25 Dingodile wrote:
I hope they change the prizepool. I dont think its great to catch $4,5k if you are in top32. reduce it to 4k and give that money to 1-4th places, maybe 5th -8th places too. Do you mind to elaborate why this would be good? I personally believe its better if a wide range of players get some money, so that more players are able to play this game for a living. Dont you feel weird if you get 8k for 5th place while someone gets 4,5k for 32nd place?
I think that the current pay structure is the best for incentives and to foster talent, people will want to get #1 no matter what. If you think about it, it's rare that anyone, players included, complain about the current pay structure, where if it became more top heavy, I'm sure some people would have bad things to say about it and there would be less room for up and coming talent to make their way into the scene
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I think that it's a cool idea in concept but would be difficult in practice. People would win trade (already seen before with some of the chinese players a while back) and some people would cheat, making WCS points a lot less meaningful for the people who did earn them through legitimate means.
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Fantastic read. Love the player quotes and bullet pts. Allowed me to grab all the info in 10 min.
It really annoys me to see people saying we can't make the ladder more important because of cheaters. I would take it even further than Catz is suggesting and have people qualify for tournaments solely based on ladder rank (a la shoutcraft). If the integrity of the ladder is not high enough to allow this, then Blizzard needs to FIX IT.
Blizzard said they would make ladder more important last year requiring Koreans to be master at least. Well, it failed. The only people on NA ladder have no aspirations for winning any tournaments, ever. We need MUCH stronger incentives to get people to play ladder in their region.
Finally, regarding bar codes, I totally agree with Catz. It's not just knowing who you are playing, it's looking at the ladder and seeing your favorite players in the top! That's motivating the new generation.
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Thread is a month old <.<
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On November 23 2015 18:47 Elentos wrote:
Thread is a month old <.<
Well then thanks for bringing it up again, since I missed it!
And it was a wonderful read.
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On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion.
I am not sure what happened here, but to me it seems you are being aggressive in this statement.
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I've not read the whole article because I have to admit I have neither the time nor the courage.
As far as the idea of ladder WCS points and cash prize seems good I still see a problem. What if people up someone else's account ? Let say a top 4 player upping someone else to top 32 and sharing prize money ?
I don't know if this is realistic in term of play time, and probably the account up should already be not bad (top 50) so the up don't take too long. But I've heard of players having two bar codes account in top 8 ladder, so why not this?
In this system, it seems to me more problematic than hackers.
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On November 23 2015 20:04 Radovan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. I am not sure what happened here, but to me it seems you are being aggressive in this statement.
Lol, looking back at it I guess I got baited, but I think that's okay when someone calls you cancerous while you are just trying your best to contribute to TL. And I was honstely trying to help him improve his posting quality and avoid a warning. But that didn't work out since he got temp banned anyway.
Seems like this thread is relevant again after Davd Kim mentioned looking into a system that rewards WCS points on ladder, just as CatZ suggested.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/498835-community-feedback-update-november-20
However, if we were to integrate the top of the ladder with Esports (such as with WCS points, for example) it might be possible to incentivize players to use their correct IDs on ladder. We have begun discussing the possibilities on our development team in an effort to create the most accurate/transparent ladder, especially at the top. With our current ladder system however, changes doesn’t seem possible due to issues we’ve discussed at BlizzCon. So, as we work to redesign the ladder, we’ll also be in discussions with our Esports team to see what can be done here.
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I dont believe its nessecary a good idea. If ladder gives you wcs points, winning will be all that matters. Everyone will cheese his way to wcs.
Another point is that players will experiment less, find no new ways to play, will only play what they already know it works. It will end in less creativity. Nobody will waste his time and just play as much games as possible.
But the most important point is that it will create pressure! More you play, more points you will have. But can everyone play a lot of games? Some may have part time jobs or go to school but are skilled enough to beat top 16 gm.
The questions are will the better players reach the top? Will everyone have the same chance to compete? Will it create fun and creative games?
I believe the qualifier is still the better way.
EDIT: Maybe it will work if the majority of points come from qualifiers so that everyone has the same chance and time to practise cool strategies. But in cases where players are really close in ranking/skill, the ladder points could decide the winner. That may create already an incentive to play more ladder.
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On November 23 2015 22:30 todespolka wrote:
I dont believe its nessecary a good idea. If ladder gives you wcs points, winning will be all that matters. Everyone will cheese his way to wcs.
Another point is that players will experiment less, find no new ways to play, will only play what they already know it works. It will end in less creativity. Nobody will waste his time and just play as much games as possible.
But the most important point is that it will create pressure! More you play, more points you will have. But can everyone play a lot of games? Some may have part time jobs or go to school but are skilled enough to beat top 16 gm.
The questions are will the better players reach the top? Will everyone have the same chance to compete? Will it create fun and creative games?
I believe the qualifier is still the better way.
EDIT: Maybe it will work if the majority of points come from qualifiers so that everyone has the same chance and time to practise cool strategies. But in cases where players are really close in ranking/skill, the ladder points could decide the winner. That may create already an incentive to play more ladder.
Oh I am sure the qualifiers would stay, it's just some extra points on top of the WCS tournaments. A few hundred points earned through the year through ladder could make the difference at the end.
Shoutcraft NA has proven that the ladder can be good. It was the best month the NA ladder ever had and it was actually a competitive place, the pros loved it. Blizzard is looking to make the ladder meaningful and competitive just like it was then.
Smurfs, unranked and custom games can still be used to be creative and try new stuff. I don't think cheesing every game will get you to the top of the ladder btw, you can't hide behind a barcode anymore and people will know you if you cheese every game.
If Blizzard can detect cheaters/account sharers and win traders, there won't be any problem and I think they can. There was no problem during Shoutcraft or Destiny I as well. Everybody who qualified was legit.
NA ladder is just bad and meaningless right now. Barcodes are a problem, something needs to be done and I'm very happy Blizzard took note.
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On October 26 2015 03:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote:
how many korean players are on Root? One right now (hydra), over time we've had: Sage - Lived @ ROOT house and played WCS system YuGiOh - Lived in KR and played GSL system Hydra - Lives @ ROOT house and plays WCS system
Supernova!
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Maybe it's just me but I don't enjoy watching foreigners play just so they can beat other foreigners and become king of the foreigners. I enjoy watching foreigners play if they can give the good Koreans a run for their money. I like watching Snute, Bunny, Mana, Naniwa, Huk (on a good day)... the guys that can actually compete with the top level players.
Korean StarCraft is just *BETTER to me. It's like watching Premier League Football. Watching WCS feels like MLS in comparison. You can just TELL their micro isn't as good and their builds are not as refined. Sure there are "exciting games," usually as a result of both players making a lot of mistakes, but on average all the players are much worse and on average it's not as fun to watch.
I don't think any foreigner can tell you with a straight face that Koreans don't improve the quality of StarCraft in their region. But I think for personal reasons, most decent foreign pros would rather they DIDN'T have to play the Koreans. More prize money and stream views for them, obviously. A guy like HuK for example can rule WCS if you take all the Koreans out, and he'll always argue that there shouldn't be Koreans, that people prefer local heroes, etc. (he tweets about it all the damn time). So obviously any foreign pro is biased towards not having Koreans in their competition... But what they don't realize is that some people would rather watch all Koreans than no Koreans.
I don't watch Snute because he's Norwegian. I watch him because he's really good at the game and sometimes he beats other people who are good at the game (and who happen to be Korean).
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I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock
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On November 24 2015 00:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock
Lilbow wasn't a debacle. It was one player managing his PR badly and showing some bravado to cover his loss of hope. Sure it shouldn't have happened, but what was the resulting harm - one series that was one-sided vs the second best player in the world? It certainly shouldn't weigh in on how the whole system is designed.
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On November 24 2015 00:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock
As a viewer, I'd rather see a talented Korean in that spot than Lilbow any day of the week.
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I don't think it "helps" any scene in any way to have "foreigners" kicked in World finals instead of qual or Ro32 just because they had an easier path.
SC2 and esport is about winning, and I'm well fine about a perfect meritocracy where you're blocked in your advancements/achievements by your competences ONLY.
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Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect.
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On November 23 2015 21:31 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 20:04 Radovan wrote:On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. I am not sure what happened here, but to me it seems you are being aggressive in this statement. Lol, looking back at it I guess I got baited, but I think that's okay when someone calls you cancerous while you are just trying your best to contribute to TL. And I was honstely trying to help him improve his posting quality and avoid a warning. But that didn't work out since he got temp banned anyway. Seems like this thread is relevant again after Davd Kim mentioned looking into a system that rewards WCS points on ladder, just as CatZ suggested. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/498835-community-feedback-update-november-20Show nested quote +However, if we were to integrate the top of the ladder with Esports (such as with WCS points, for example) it might be possible to incentivize players to use their correct IDs on ladder. We have begun discussing the possibilities on our development team in an effort to create the most accurate/transparent ladder, especially at the top. With our current ladder system however, changes doesn’t seem possible due to issues we’ve discussed at BlizzCon. So, as we work to redesign the ladder, we’ll also be in discussions with our Esports team to see what can be done here.
Alright, makes sense, I was just confused, no worries.
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On November 24 2015 00:06 Ignorant prodigy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 03:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote:
how many korean players are on Root? One right now (hydra), over time we've had: Sage - Lived @ ROOT house and played WCS system YuGiOh - Lived in KR and played GSL system Hydra - Lives @ ROOT house and plays WCS system Supernova!
lol oops!!! edited in, thank you
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On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect.
Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports.
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On November 24 2015 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't enjoy watching foreigners play just so they can beat other foreigners and become king of the foreigners. I enjoy watching foreigners play if they can give the good Koreans a run for their money. I like watching Snute, Bunny, Mana, Naniwa, Huk (on a good day)... the guys that can actually compete with the top level players.
Korean StarCraft is just *BETTER to me. It's like watching Premier League Football. Watching WCS feels like MLS in comparison. You can just TELL their micro isn't as good and their builds are not as refined. Sure there are "exciting games," usually as a result of both players making a lot of mistakes, but on average all the players are much worse and on average it's not as fun to watch.
I don't think any foreigner can tell you with a straight face that Koreans don't improve the quality of StarCraft in their region. But I think for personal reasons, most decent foreign pros would rather they DIDN'T have to play the Koreans. More prize money and stream views for them, obviously. A guy like HuK for example can rule WCS if you take all the Koreans out, and he'll always argue that there shouldn't be Koreans, that people prefer local heroes, etc. (he tweets about it all the damn time). So obviously any foreign pro is biased towards not having Koreans in their competition... But what they don't realize is that some people would rather watch all Koreans than no Koreans.
I don't watch Snute because he's Norwegian. I watch him because he's really good at the game and sometimes he beats other people who are good at the game (and who happen to be Korean).
That's exactly how i feel. "Local heroes" are only heroes if they can beat the best. Otherwise i see little point in watching inferior games when i could watch the top pros. There are only so many games i can watch, i so i'd always choose the best.
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On November 24 2015 05:16 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect. Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports.
Okay, SC2 is your job and you have personal interest in it; I get it.
But why you post your idea here? I mean, your aim is to convince the people who has actual power to modify the game. Not us, the costumers.
Have you tried to arrange a meeting with blizzard staff? I think they are willing to hear your proposals... So why don't you give it a try?
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On November 24 2015 08:56 Apoteosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 05:16 ROOTCatZ wrote:On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect. Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports. Okay, SC2 is your job and you have personal interest in it; I get it. But why you post your idea here? I mean, your aim is to convince the people who has actual power to modify the game. Not us, the costumers. Have you tried to arrange a meeting with blizzard staff? I think they are willing to hear your proposals... So why don't you give it a try?
You really think it's that simple? Just calling up Blizzard and telling them how to do their jobs better?
No, this is a far better way to go about things. You put an idea out there, you see if you have support, and you refine it based on feedback. At the same time you give Blizzard the chance to see the results of the discussion and evaluate things based on what they see and what they're considering.
Having an open discussion about issues is a good thing, I don't see why you'd want to discourage that.
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I'm a little unclear on people's hacking concern. The only use of WCS points is to be able to compete in WCS tournaments, no? So if someone was top of the ladder, they could get a few points to help them get to Blizzcon. What would a hacker do with WCS points, even if they got them? I mean CatZ compares to the Hearthstone system – there are bots in Hearthstone that reach Legend, but so what? Even if someone used a bot to reach Legend and got some points toward getting to go to Blizzcon, they'd still have to compete in qualifiers and such, and if they suck and just use a bot, then they'll still just lose.
So if we allow WCS points for people at the top of the ladder, those points will go to either:
a) legitimate players who practiced hard to get to the top of the ladder
b) no-name hackers who aren't good enough to win without hacking
c) legitimate players who decided to use hacks to get to the top of the ladder
Scenario a) seems good, and scenario b) doesn't matter much. Scenario c) would be terrible, if we incentivized good players to start cheating because they want to get to the top. But do we think pro players would really start doing that a lot? And don't you think we could probably find evidence of their hacking at some point if well-known players were hacking to reach the top of the ladder?
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8751 Posts
I don't think the whole anti-barcode thing belonged. It's a personal preference. Some people enjoy having the ego involved and some people don't. For tournaments it's inevitable that everyone's identity is known and it seems pretty selfish for the people who prefer that to want to take over the ladder too. Since ladder is simultaneously practice, not purely a competition like WCS, I think it's reasonable to respect wishes for anonymity. I feel like this argument is CatZ the team owner and esports business guy talking (and maybe his personal preference too) and not necessarily what the majority of players want or what's best for everyone.
As for the servers being imbalanced, even if the NA server improved some because of incentives, the KR server will still be significantly better. Anyone who can tolerate the ping would be better off playing KR. But if they're "forced" to play NA because the incentives are too substantial, then you're really forcing people to get worse practice.
What's harder, asking players to get used to practicing in high latency or setting up a second competitive ladder? I think the latter is such an absurdly difficult thing to do and I really question how hard it is for most NA players to play on KR.
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On November 24 2015 05:48 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't enjoy watching foreigners play just so they can beat other foreigners and become king of the foreigners. I enjoy watching foreigners play if they can give the good Koreans a run for their money. I like watching Snute, Bunny, Mana, Naniwa, Huk (on a good day)... the guys that can actually compete with the top level players.
Korean StarCraft is just *BETTER to me. It's like watching Premier League Football. Watching WCS feels like MLS in comparison. You can just TELL their micro isn't as good and their builds are not as refined. Sure there are "exciting games," usually as a result of both players making a lot of mistakes, but on average all the players are much worse and on average it's not as fun to watch.
I don't think any foreigner can tell you with a straight face that Koreans don't improve the quality of StarCraft in their region. But I think for personal reasons, most decent foreign pros would rather they DIDN'T have to play the Koreans. More prize money and stream views for them, obviously. A guy like HuK for example can rule WCS if you take all the Koreans out, and he'll always argue that there shouldn't be Koreans, that people prefer local heroes, etc. (he tweets about it all the damn time). So obviously any foreign pro is biased towards not having Koreans in their competition... But what they don't realize is that some people would rather watch all Koreans than no Koreans.
I don't watch Snute because he's Norwegian. I watch him because he's really good at the game and sometimes he beats other people who are good at the game (and who happen to be Korean). That's exactly how i feel. "Local heroes" are only heroes if they can beat the best. Otherwise i see little point in watching inferior games when i could watch the top pros. There are only so many games i can watch, i so i'd always choose the best.
I used to feel that way, but now when I do watch games I'm more likely to pick matches with good stories over matches with good players, and with a few exceptions I find foreigner stories more interesting. I have less time to play and watch anything these days and my affair with chess means I play and watch even less. I'm not concerned with actively trying to improve, and not trying to mine things to use in my own games as much, so I guess the whole experience is different for me now.
But I've always been interested in foreign success and the conditions necessary to produce a world class foreign player. The desire to see healthy western esports, what it represents to me, was a big part of why I was into starcraft in the first place.
Then again I watch college basketball and not the NBA so maybe I'm weird.
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On November 24 2015 08:59 Rehio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 08:56 Apoteosis wrote:On November 24 2015 05:16 ROOTCatZ wrote:On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect. Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports. Okay, SC2 is your job and you have personal interest in it; I get it. But why you post your idea here? I mean, your aim is to convince the people who has actual power to modify the game. Not us, the costumers. Have you tried to arrange a meeting with blizzard staff? I think they are willing to hear your proposals... So why don't you give it a try? You really think it's that simple? Just calling up Blizzard and telling them how to do their jobs better? No, this is a far better way to go about things. You put an idea out there, you see if you have support, and you refine it based on feedback. At the same time you give Blizzard the chance to see the results of the discussion and evaluate things based on what they see and what they're considering. Having an open discussion about issues is a good thing, I don't see why you'd want to discourage that.
It is simple. Call the guys and arrange a meeting. Or buy a bunch of Actiblizz stocks and assist to the next board.
The indirect approach was implemented before, and didn't work. Remember the DH 8-10 discussion? Did it work? No. Why? Because TL were targeting the wrong people.
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WCS points for ladder is great!
Some issues I see:
1. What prevents ppl. from only revealing their barcode identity after the season?
2. Cheating needs to be dealt with.
3. Alot of ppl never will or intend to enter blizzcon anyways. Only offering WCS points to them isn't any incentive to play more ladder or to reveal their identity. If you could swap these excessive WCS points for anything else of value or whatever else, that would work I guess.
(didn't read the full text)
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On November 24 2015 09:40 NonY wrote:
I don't think the whole anti-barcode thing belonged. It's a personal preference. Some people enjoy having the ego involved and some people don't. For tournaments it's inevitable that everyone's identity is known and it seems pretty selfish for the people who prefer that to want to take over the ladder too. Since ladder is simultaneously practice, not purely a competition like WCS, I think it's reasonable to respect wishes for anonymity. I feel like this argument is CatZ the team owner and esports business guy talking (and maybe his personal preference too) and not necessarily what the majority of players want or what's best for everyone.
As for the servers being imbalanced, even if the NA server improved some because of incentives, the KR server will still be significantly better. Anyone who can tolerate the ping would be better off playing KR. But if they're "forced" to play NA because the incentives are too substantial, then you're really forcing people to get worse practice.
What's harder, asking players to get used to practicing in high latency or setting up a second competitive ladder? I think the latter is such an absurdly difficult thing to do and I really question how hard it is for most NA players to play on KR.
On the barcodes, yes my opinion isn't as a player in this regard, I don't know what most players would want from a purely player perspective, my guess is people would be split on it, but for the viewers, teams, sponsors which is what keeps the game going : it's what's best, and therefore what everyone should want imo.
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8751 Posts
I don't think it's obviously better. In general, it should be obvious that we can't justify anything that brings in more viewers or more money just for the sake of more viewers or more money. In order to comprehend what we're asking for, we need an idea of what it'll cost and what we'll get from it. What's the point of writing a long article when it comes down to "trust me, I'm an authority" and "yes there's a conflict of interest, but trust me, I'm being objective."
We share the same concern about NA players (and EU players) needing a good practice environment. I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. I think that if we're looking to KeSPA teams as a model of stability and we asked their coaches and managers "Would you like to expose practice games to the community? Sponsors get more views, fans get more content, players get more money, everyone wins!" then they would laugh at the idea.
I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough. There should be some semblance of privacy reserved for the players who just want to play and not be exposed/exploited by the ones who want to monetize everything they can. Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases)
We've already experienced periods of oversaturation so I'm not sure that more content is always better. I think that people like to watch SC2 already get enough SC2 to watch. Who is really losing out if the scene doesn't grow? If there are no barcodes on ladder and team owners are making their players upload interesting things that happen while playing ladder, then the fans who like behind-the-scenes drama and stories will get more of that. But attracting more viewers with that content will mainly attract viewers that watch it for that kind of content and this can be seriously annoying for the other fans.
Real sports have this issue. Sports reporters have gotten more and more like TMZ. People just absolutely make things up and put "sources say" behind it. Things like fantasy football cut into actual football time in order to please all the viewers who watch primarily because they play fantasy football. There are serious discussions about the word choice and tone players use in interviews, or overheard using in other places, and body language is analyzed and all sorts of shit to try to get at something that isn't actually there. Whatever can reasonably be done to get more viewers is done, without a lot of respect granted to the people who just like the games themselves. And the people who actually like the storylines are often being duped by things that have just been made up by the media and the players let it happen. It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine.
The point is that if you can grow without changing identity, then that's pretty close to a clear improvement. It's not quite a clear improvement, because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular, but let's ignore those people. If you grow without doing anything different, awesome. If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change. Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good.
This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community.
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On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't think it's obviously better. In general, it should be obvious that we can't justify anything that brings in more viewers or more money just for the sake of more viewers or more money. In order to comprehend what we're asking for, we need an idea of what it'll cost and what we'll get from it. What's the point of writing a long article when it comes down to "trust me, I'm an authority" and "yes there's a conflict of interest, but trust me, I'm being objective."
We share the same concern about NA players (and EU players) needing a good practice environment. I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. I think that if we're looking to KeSPA teams as a model of stability and we asked their coaches and managers "Would you like to expose practice games to the community? Sponsors get more views, fans get more content, players get more money, everyone wins!" then they would laugh at the idea.
I don't think this gets to the point. Just because a flawed system has been established over several years in korea doesn't make it the right thing. Just like in real sports where you can't just put on a mask and practice anonymously with the top players. Instead they go on practice camps and practice in private. So it's basicly the decision of the players if they want to expose practice games or not, but no one is forced to.
On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough. There should be some semblance of privacy reserved for the players who just want to play and not be exposed/exploited by the ones who want to monetize everything they can. Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases)
No one is forced to stream if they don't want to, it's the players decision alone. Get some practice partners and battle out a bunch of private games.
But the ladder is a form of public (virtual) place. If you play games on the ladder you can't demand privacy. That are two contrary things.
I think CatZ' proposal for the ladder is trying to get some honesty from the players. Like if you are playing in public, at least take some responsibility for what you do, in both ways good and bad.
If you want some privacy, then stay in private!
But anonymity is not privacy, it's a way of irresponsibility.
On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We've already experienced periods of oversaturation so I'm not sure that more content is always better. I think that people like to watch SC2 already get enough SC2 to watch. Who is really losing out if the scene doesn't grow? If there are no barcodes on ladder and team owners are making their players upload interesting things that happen while playing ladder, then the fans who like behind-the-scenes drama and stories will get more of that. But attracting more viewers with that content will mainly attract viewers that watch it for that kind of content and this can be seriously annoying for the other fans.
Real sports have this issue. Sports reporters have gotten more and more like TMZ. People just absolutely make things up and put "sources say" behind it. Things like fantasy football cut into actual football time in order to please all the viewers who watch primarily because they play fantasy football. There are serious discussions about the word choice and tone players use in interviews, or overheard using in other places, and body language is analyzed and all sorts of shit to try to get at something that isn't actually there. Whatever can reasonably be done to get more viewers is done, without a lot of respect granted to the people who just like the games themselves. And the people who actually like the storylines are often being duped by things that have just been made up by the media and the players let it happen. It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine.
Drama is why most of us are here for, even if some are not willing to accept this. How boring would the scene be when there's no drama? Who remembers some random finals from 2 years ago that maybe had supreme high level play?
But we sure as hell still remember MLG Dallas 2011, Huk vs. IdrA or the NASL sound guy.
The point is there is more to a game than just high level play. And with a healthy community there is no need to make things up, stuff happens all the time.
I agree with you that high level play is substantial for a competitive scene but from the viewer's side it's the characters that make a game even more interesting.
Yes it would be bad if SC2 would only attract drama whores but the game has never been at a point where the drama was more important than the competition, not even close. And I don't see the possibility of it getting there.
On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The point is that if you can grow without changing identity, then that's pretty close to a clear improvement. It's not quite a clear improvement, because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular, but let's ignore those people. If you grow without doing anything different, awesome. If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change. Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good.
This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community.
Isn't the scene changing all the time? Old players retire, new players come in. Same with the fans. If you balance it out there will be no growth but there will still be change.
CatZ' article was not justifying to do something different for the sake of growth but for the sake of the stability of the community.
In my opinion a healthy community is a sustainable community, doesn't matter if it's small or big. But in the long run anonymity affects it in an unhealthy way.
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I'm honestly surprised that CatZ doesn't already work for Blizzard in the E-sports dept.
He is a very intelligent man that contributes a lot to the scene. He plays well, consistently provides education resources from his own play, on top of all this- Has passion that can be seen for days. Articulate article with a thought out plan. Love it!? ~smiles~
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On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:
I don't think it's obviously better. In general, it should be obvious that we can't justify anything that brings in more viewers or more money just for the sake of more viewers or more money. In order to comprehend what we're asking for, we need an idea of what it'll cost and what we'll get from it. What's the point of writing a long article when it comes down to "trust me, I'm an authority" and "yes there's a conflict of interest, but trust me, I'm being objective."
We share the same concern about NA players (and EU players) needing a good practice environment. I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. I think that if we're looking to KeSPA teams as a model of stability and we asked their coaches and managers "Would you like to expose practice games to the community? Sponsors get more views, fans get more content, players get more money, everyone wins!" then they would laugh at the idea.
I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough. There should be some semblance of privacy reserved for the players who just want to play and not be exposed/exploited by the ones who want to monetize everything they can. Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases)
We've already experienced periods of oversaturation so I'm not sure that more content is always better. I think that people like to watch SC2 already get enough SC2 to watch. Who is really losing out if the scene doesn't grow? If there are no barcodes on ladder and team owners are making their players upload interesting things that happen while playing ladder, then the fans who like behind-the-scenes drama and stories will get more of that. But attracting more viewers with that content will mainly attract viewers that watch it for that kind of content and this can be seriously annoying for the other fans.
Real sports have this issue. Sports reporters have gotten more and more like TMZ. People just absolutely make things up and put "sources say" behind it. Things like fantasy football cut into actual football time in order to please all the viewers who watch primarily because they play fantasy football. There are serious discussions about the word choice and tone players use in interviews, or overheard using in other places, and body language is analyzed and all sorts of shit to try to get at something that isn't actually there. Whatever can reasonably be done to get more viewers is done, without a lot of respect granted to the people who just like the games themselves. And the people who actually like the storylines are often being duped by things that have just been made up by the media and the players let it happen. It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine.
The point is that if you can grow without changing identity, then that's pretty close to a clear improvement. It's not quite a clear improvement, because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular, but let's ignore those people. If you grow without doing anything different, awesome. If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change. Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good.
This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community.
> I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it.
Players would be at even grounds, it wouldn't benefit or hurt anyone more than anyone else, and no barcodes doesn't translate into all your builds are public, there are plenty of measures like a private match history option that could be implemented to solve potential 'problems' but I don't really see something that affects everyone equally as a problem, MUCH less when it's completely optional, WCS points are only relevant to a few people who will compete @ Blizzcon, this would discourage barcodes but you're free to play on a barcode if you want to, really, there'd just be a lot less of them. I don't see a large downside and many potential upsides, plus as you pointed out, it's arguable what players want, I know that most players I talked to during the writing of the article would rather there not be barcodes, but we could make a pro-player survey and if the results are heavily in favor of barcodes which would honestly surprise me we could have more of a debate on the topic.
>I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough.
What?
> Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases)
Yeah for viewership and the growth of the game it is, without a doubt.
> It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine.
Professional wrestling is very real, if you mean WWE stands for World Wrestling Entretainment and it's not ment to be real, it's just an act for show that's public knowledge but idk how it's relevant here at all.
> because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular
That's cool but a lot of the people who like the game and would want to do it as a career will get affected by this, we're talking about competitive gaming, I would think that most people devoting enough time to be good at a game should be rewarded with $ and other incentives for their efforts, that becomes much harder to do if there is no support, so anything to help that benefits most competitive players by proxy, it's not rocket science. I understand where you're coming from - I played broodwar a lot back in the day and never expected to profit from it, I played the game cause I liked it, but if you're playing the game cause you like it then feel free to barcode, no one will force you not to, or make a smurf, no one cares, you just won't get WCS pts from the ladder and won't go to blizzcon, which realistically nor you or me stand much of a chance anyway.
> If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change.
I'm sorry but I'd be willing to wager any amount of money that most of our EXISTING fans would much prefer the change, making that argument completely irrelevant if you're looking to cater to our existing fanbase, I'm positive that most people have stopped watching or following or lost interest because barcodes exist than people who would leave because they are discouraged.
> Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good.
Again I have no idea what possibly would make you think that discouraging barcodes would somehow make us lose identity and any significant percentage of our current viewership. Barcodes were never intended by Blizzard for StarCraft, they have always been a problem that needs fixing as far as Blizzard is concerned, Barcodes was the change that you're talking about, the change that should've never happened and they didn't see coming, and it's just not a good thing. As far as acting like something is purely good you have a point, I normally hate talking in absolutes and if that's how it came across I'm sorry, I am not all-knowing but I do have more experience than most people, and I would be willing to wager that the GREAT majority of people would be FOR getting rid of barcodes, so what I don't get is why discouraging them seems so radical to you. I just think that the positives outweight the negatives by a landslide in the great majority of people's minds players or not.
>This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community.
So again - players will be on an even play-field as they've always been, and they will have the option to barcode or smurf if that's what they want. As far as our existing community goes, I had a poll at the end of the article and 90% of the people agreed either completely or mostly with the article (as oppossed to being neutral, mostly disagreeing and completely disagreeing) That is our current, niche, hardcore following that's voting in that sort of poll is it not? so don't say their opinion wasn't taken into account, I didn't see an upvoted reddit thread or poll as there usually is when a topic is polarizing, and this is honestly the FIRST time I've seen anyone since the article was released bring up Barcodes being gone as a negative, while I've seen countless of positive comments towards it. I'm very in touch with the community, I frequent reddit and TL every day and I read every single comment pertaining me or my opinions on a subject, I also take the time to answer in detail and justify my opinions to just about anyone.
I'm so confident in what I'm saying that I made a twitter poll and tagged you in it before knowing the results cause I know that the majority thinks barcodes aren't good.
Here:
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8751 Posts
I don't think this gets to the point. Just because a flawed system has been established over several years in korea doesn't make it the right thing. Just like in real sports where you can't just put on a mask and practice anonymously with the top players. Instead they go on practice camps and practice in private. So it's basicly the decision of the players if they want to expose practice games or not, but no one is forced to.
You are confused because there are two issues going on. One issue is the skill level of non-Koreans. This is an issue because competition without Koreans is not as interesting for viewers who like seeing high level play and it's an issue when non-Koreans play Koreans because the Koreans win too often. If you want to classify viewers into two basic categories: viewers who watch for the games themselves and viewers who watch for the storylines, BOTH kinds of viewers are suffering due to this skill discrepancy. So there are a lot of people trying to figure out ways to raise the skill level of non-Koreans so that the games themselves are more interesting and so that there are more opportunities for storylines and drama and interactions than "oh shit is a non-Korean going to beat a Korean?"
No one is forced to stream if they don't want to, it's the players decision alone. Get some practice partners and battle out a bunch of private games.
But the ladder is a form of public (virtual) place. If you play games on the ladder you can't demand privacy. That are two contrary things.
I think CatZ' proposal for the ladder is trying to get some honesty from the players. Like if you are playing in public, at least take some responsibility for what you do, in both ways good and bad.
If you want some privacy, then stay in private!
But anonymity is not privacy, it's a way of irresponsibility.
You're not forced to stream but you can't stop someone from streaming you. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue for the abandonment of the ladder as a practice tool here, like anyone can do just as well by playing only private games, but the history of successful players certainly doesn't support that. Many successful players have gotten a large portion of their practice from ladder or they practice with people who get a large portion of practice from the ladder. It's nearly impossible to find players who have not directly or indirectly benefited from ladder practice.
The ladder is public so you can't demand any privacy? It doesn't have to be so black and white, as if any public place has zero privacy and any private place has perfect privacy. If you aren't able to think past that then I guess we're at an impasse. Similarly, if you cannot think of any legitimate reason to desire privacy and can only think that of it as an opportunity to be irresponsible, then again we're at an impasse.
Drama is why most of us are here for, even if some are not willing to accept this. How boring would the scene be when there's no drama? Who remembers some random finals from 2 years ago that maybe had supreme high level play?
But we sure as hell still remember MLG Dallas 2011, Huk vs. IdrA or the NASL sound guy.
The point is there is more to a game than just high level play. And with a healthy community there is no need to make things up, stuff happens all the time.
I agree with you that high level play is substantial for a competitive scene but from the viewer's side it's the characters that make a game even more interesting.
Yes it would be bad if SC2 would only attract drama whores but the game has never been at a point where the drama was more important than the competition, not even close. And I don't see the possibility of it getting there.
What is the point of you saying any of this? I already recognized that people like you exist. If you are in the majority and you want to enjoy the tyranny of the majority, then go ahead and continue to marginalize the experiences and interests of anyone who is different than you. I can't stop it if the majority wants to band together and use their leverage to get more things that they want despite what other people want. Keep justifying it with utilitarianism or whatever.
There's no need to make things up? There is a need when people want privacy. But to you privacy only exists for deviants to be irresponsible I guess. When the public doesn't know the full story they fill in the gaps and make assumptions and judgments with what they've got. Then the people who are being judged have a decision to make: give up their privacy to get the truth out there or let the misunderstandings exist and not care what people think (or deal with it however they want). How will this burden help non-Koreans catch up to Koreans? How will it make players more mentally stable and consistent? It seems like a distraction to me. Any time some jackass looking for youtube views can construe a ladder game against you as some kind of dramatic event, you either have to suffer being exploited and misunderstood or you have to waste your time defending yourself to the public.
Anyway, if you can so easily give me a list of interesting things that have happened over the year during tournaments, then do you really need even MORE shit from the ladder? You aren't even at risk of losing drama. You are just concerned that you are missing out on even more drama from the ladder. Is it really so necessary? If you had to choose between non-Koreans being as good as Koreans or having more drama, which would you choose? Maybe that should help guide your desires for the community.
But in the long run anonymity affects it in an unhealthy way.
Were you going to argue for this in some way or just state your opinion to contradict mine?
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8751 Posts
On November 25 2015 19:52 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:
I don't think it's obviously better. In general, it should be obvious that we can't justify anything that brings in more viewers or more money just for the sake of more viewers or more money. In order to comprehend what we're asking for, we need an idea of what it'll cost and what we'll get from it. What's the point of writing a long article when it comes down to "trust me, I'm an authority" and "yes there's a conflict of interest, but trust me, I'm being objective."
We share the same concern about NA players (and EU players) needing a good practice environment. I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. I think that if we're looking to KeSPA teams as a model of stability and we asked their coaches and managers "Would you like to expose practice games to the community? Sponsors get more views, fans get more content, players get more money, everyone wins!" then they would laugh at the idea.
I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough. There should be some semblance of privacy reserved for the players who just want to play and not be exposed/exploited by the ones who want to monetize everything they can. Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases)
We've already experienced periods of oversaturation so I'm not sure that more content is always better. I think that people like to watch SC2 already get enough SC2 to watch. Who is really losing out if the scene doesn't grow? If there are no barcodes on ladder and team owners are making their players upload interesting things that happen while playing ladder, then the fans who like behind-the-scenes drama and stories will get more of that. But attracting more viewers with that content will mainly attract viewers that watch it for that kind of content and this can be seriously annoying for the other fans.
Real sports have this issue. Sports reporters have gotten more and more like TMZ. People just absolutely make things up and put "sources say" behind it. Things like fantasy football cut into actual football time in order to please all the viewers who watch primarily because they play fantasy football. There are serious discussions about the word choice and tone players use in interviews, or overheard using in other places, and body language is analyzed and all sorts of shit to try to get at something that isn't actually there. Whatever can reasonably be done to get more viewers is done, without a lot of respect granted to the people who just like the games themselves. And the people who actually like the storylines are often being duped by things that have just been made up by the media and the players let it happen. It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine.
The point is that if you can grow without changing identity, then that's pretty close to a clear improvement. It's not quite a clear improvement, because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular, but let's ignore those people. If you grow without doing anything different, awesome. If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change. Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good.
This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community. Show nested quote +> I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. Players would be at even grounds, it wouldn't benefit or hurt anyone more than anyone else, and no barcodes doesn't translate into all your builds are public, there are plenty of measures like a private match history option that could be implemented to solve potential 'problems' but I don't really see something that affects everyone equally as a problem, MUCH less when it's completely optional, WCS points are only relevant to a few people who will compete @ Blizzcon, this would discourage barcodes but you're free to play on a barcode if you want to, really, there'd just be a lot less of them. I don't see a large downside and many potential upsides, plus as you pointed out, it's arguable what players want, I know that most players I talked to during the writing of the article would rather there not be barcodes, but we could make a pro-player survey and if the results are heavily in favor of barcodes which would honestly surprise me we could have more of a debate on the topic. Show nested quote +>I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough.
What? Show nested quote +> Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases) Yeah for viewership and the growth of the game it is, without a doubt. Show nested quote +> It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine. Professional wrestling is very real, if you mean WWE stands for World Wrestling Entretainment and it's not ment to be real, it's just an act for show that's public knowledge but idk how it's relevant here at all. Show nested quote +> because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular That's cool but a lot of the people who like the game and would want to do it as a career will get affected by this, we're talking about competitive gaming, I would think that most people devoting enough time to be good at a game should be rewarded with $ and other incentives for their efforts, that becomes much harder to do if there is no support, so anything to help that benefits most competitive players by proxy, it's not rocket science. I understand where you're coming from - I played broodwar a lot back in the day and never expected to profit from it, I played the game cause I liked it, but if you're playing the game cause you like it then feel free to barcode, no one will force you not to, or make a smurf, no one cares, you just won't get WCS pts from the ladder and won't go to blizzcon, which realistically nor you or me stand much of a chance anyway. Show nested quote +> If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change.
I'm sorry but I'd be willing to wager any amount of money that most of our EXISTING fans would much prefer the change, making that argument completely irrelevant if you're looking to cater to our existing fanbase, I'm positive that most people have stopped watching or following or lost interest because barcodes exist than people who would leave because they are discouraged. Show nested quote +> Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good. Again I have no idea what possibly would make you think that discouraging barcodes would somehow make us lose identity and any significant percentage of our current viewership. Barcodes were never intended by Blizzard for StarCraft, they have always been a problem that needs fixing as far as Blizzard is concerned, Barcodes was the change that you're talking about, the change that should've never happened and they didn't see coming, and it's just not a good thing. As far as acting like something is purely good you have a point, I normally hate talking in absolutes and if that's how it came across I'm sorry, I am not all-knowing but I do have more experience than most people, and I would be willing to wager that the GREAT majority of people would be FOR getting rid of barcodes, so what I don't get is why discouraging them seems so radical to you. I just think that the positives outweight the negatives by a landslide in the great majority of people's minds players or not. Show nested quote +>This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community. So again - players will be on an even play-field as they've always been, and they will have the option to barcode or smurf if that's what they want. As far as our existing community goes, I had a poll at the end of the article and 90% of the people agreed either completely or mostly with the article (as oppossed to being neutral, mostly disagreeing and completely disagreeing) That is our current, niche, hardcore following that's voting in that sort of poll is it not? so don't say their opinion wasn't taken into account, I didn't see an upvoted reddit thread or poll as there usually is when a topic is polarizing, and this is honestly the FIRST time I've seen anyone since the article was released bring up Barcodes being gone as a negative, while I've seen countless of positive comments towards it. I'm very in touch with the community, I frequent reddit and TL every day and I read every single comment pertaining me or my opinions on a subject, I also take the time to answer in detail and justify my opinions to just about anyone. I'm so confident in what I'm saying that I made a twitter poll and tagged you in it before knowing the results cause I know that the majority thinks barcodes aren't good. Here: https://twitter.com/ROOTCatZ/status/669468372615196672
I honestly don't know if you're this stupid or you just know that you aren't actually trying to teach me something but rather trying to convince everyone else who is reading this that you're right. What a waste of time.
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On November 25 2015 18:36 UR.Solo wrote:
I'm honestly surprised that CatZ doesn't already work for Blizzard in the E-sports dept.
He is a very intelligent man that contributes a lot to the scene. He plays well, consistently provides education resources from his own play, on top of all this- Has passion that can be seen for days. Articulate article with a thought out plan. Love it!? ~smiles~
wow thanks man <3
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On November 26 2015 05:44 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 19:52 ROOTCatZ wrote:On November 25 2015 07:28 NonY wrote:
I don't think it's obviously better. In general, it should be obvious that we can't justify anything that brings in more viewers or more money just for the sake of more viewers or more money. In order to comprehend what we're asking for, we need an idea of what it'll cost and what we'll get from it. What's the point of writing a long article when it comes down to "trust me, I'm an authority" and "yes there's a conflict of interest, but trust me, I'm being objective."
We share the same concern about NA players (and EU players) needing a good practice environment. I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. I think that if we're looking to KeSPA teams as a model of stability and we asked their coaches and managers "Would you like to expose practice games to the community? Sponsors get more views, fans get more content, players get more money, everyone wins!" then they would laugh at the idea.
I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough. There should be some semblance of privacy reserved for the players who just want to play and not be exposed/exploited by the ones who want to monetize everything they can. Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases)
We've already experienced periods of oversaturation so I'm not sure that more content is always better. I think that people like to watch SC2 already get enough SC2 to watch. Who is really losing out if the scene doesn't grow? If there are no barcodes on ladder and team owners are making their players upload interesting things that happen while playing ladder, then the fans who like behind-the-scenes drama and stories will get more of that. But attracting more viewers with that content will mainly attract viewers that watch it for that kind of content and this can be seriously annoying for the other fans.
Real sports have this issue. Sports reporters have gotten more and more like TMZ. People just absolutely make things up and put "sources say" behind it. Things like fantasy football cut into actual football time in order to please all the viewers who watch primarily because they play fantasy football. There are serious discussions about the word choice and tone players use in interviews, or overheard using in other places, and body language is analyzed and all sorts of shit to try to get at something that isn't actually there. Whatever can reasonably be done to get more viewers is done, without a lot of respect granted to the people who just like the games themselves. And the people who actually like the storylines are often being duped by things that have just been made up by the media and the players let it happen. It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine.
The point is that if you can grow without changing identity, then that's pretty close to a clear improvement. It's not quite a clear improvement, because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular, but let's ignore those people. If you grow without doing anything different, awesome. If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change. Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good.
This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community. > I really question whether practice games being exposed for the sake of more ad and sponsor money and more content for viewers is worth it. Players would be at even grounds, it wouldn't benefit or hurt anyone more than anyone else, and no barcodes doesn't translate into all your builds are public, there are plenty of measures like a private match history option that could be implemented to solve potential 'problems' but I don't really see something that affects everyone equally as a problem, MUCH less when it's completely optional, WCS points are only relevant to a few people who will compete @ Blizzcon, this would discourage barcodes but you're free to play on a barcode if you want to, really, there'd just be a lot less of them. I don't see a large downside and many potential upsides, plus as you pointed out, it's arguable what players want, I know that most players I talked to during the writing of the article would rather there not be barcodes, but we could make a pro-player survey and if the results are heavily in favor of barcodes which would honestly surprise me we could have more of a debate on the topic. >I think the fact that players are allowed to stream their games without their opponent's consent is already extreme enough.
What? > Is it really so bad to let the play stand on its own? Do you have to have the opponent's name and do this whole "developing a narrative" thing? (more like fabricating a narrative in most cases) Yeah for viewership and the growth of the game it is, without a doubt. > It's like professional wrestling. Savvy fans have to be cautious as hell before they ever assume something is genuine. Professional wrestling is very real, if you mean WWE stands for World Wrestling Entretainment and it's not ment to be real, it's just an act for show that's public knowledge but idk how it's relevant here at all. > because some people actually like it when the things they like aren't super popular That's cool but a lot of the people who like the game and would want to do it as a career will get affected by this, we're talking about competitive gaming, I would think that most people devoting enough time to be good at a game should be rewarded with $ and other incentives for their efforts, that becomes much harder to do if there is no support, so anything to help that benefits most competitive players by proxy, it's not rocket science. I understand where you're coming from - I played broodwar a lot back in the day and never expected to profit from it, I played the game cause I liked it, but if you're playing the game cause you like it then feel free to barcode, no one will force you not to, or make a smurf, no one cares, you just won't get WCS pts from the ladder and won't go to blizzcon, which realistically nor you or me stand much of a chance anyway. > If you justify doing something different for the sake of growth, you are inevitably going to alienate some existing fans who don't like the change.
I'm sorry but I'd be willing to wager any amount of money that most of our EXISTING fans would much prefer the change, making that argument completely irrelevant if you're looking to cater to our existing fanbase, I'm positive that most people have stopped watching or following or lost interest because barcodes exist than people who would leave because they are discouraged. > Maybe they can all quit watching and you get so many new people you still grow but you can't act like it's something purely good. Again I have no idea what possibly would make you think that discouraging barcodes would somehow make us lose identity and any significant percentage of our current viewership. Barcodes were never intended by Blizzard for StarCraft, they have always been a problem that needs fixing as far as Blizzard is concerned, Barcodes was the change that you're talking about, the change that should've never happened and they didn't see coming, and it's just not a good thing. As far as acting like something is purely good you have a point, I normally hate talking in absolutes and if that's how it came across I'm sorry, I am not all-knowing but I do have more experience than most people, and I would be willing to wager that the GREAT majority of people would be FOR getting rid of barcodes, so what I don't get is why discouraging them seems so radical to you. I just think that the positives outweight the negatives by a landslide in the great majority of people's minds players or not. >This is a complex topic even when you don't consider the wellbeing of the players. One way to simplify the hell out of it is to say "I don't care who I'm getting views from or why they're viewing it as long as I'm getting more and more" but then you can't pretend for a second that you've put some thought or care about what's actually good for the existing community. So again - players will be on an even play-field as they've always been, and they will have the option to barcode or smurf if that's what they want. As far as our existing community goes, I had a poll at the end of the article and 90% of the people agreed either completely or mostly with the article (as oppossed to being neutral, mostly disagreeing and completely disagreeing) That is our current, niche, hardcore following that's voting in that sort of poll is it not? so don't say their opinion wasn't taken into account, I didn't see an upvoted reddit thread or poll as there usually is when a topic is polarizing, and this is honestly the FIRST time I've seen anyone since the article was released bring up Barcodes being gone as a negative, while I've seen countless of positive comments towards it. I'm very in touch with the community, I frequent reddit and TL every day and I read every single comment pertaining me or my opinions on a subject, I also take the time to answer in detail and justify my opinions to just about anyone. I'm so confident in what I'm saying that I made a twitter poll and tagged you in it before knowing the results cause I know that the majority thinks barcodes aren't good. Here: https://twitter.com/ROOTCatZ/status/669468372615196672 I honestly don't know if you're this stupid or you just know that you aren't actually trying to teach me something but rather trying to convince everyone else who is reading this that you're right. What a waste of time.
Solid, Chill, answer NonY!
But yeah you're right, I don't care about your opinion or winning a debate or argument against you. If you wanted to argue privately you could've DM'd but if you chose to write a long winded post on a public forum, being a public figure, you naturally have to account for the fact that your opinion WILL influence people reading it one way or another, that's why you wrote your post in the first place, right? or did you think you were writing in your e-diary but posted on TL by mistake?
And seriously, did you ever think you were gonna convince me to change my view on this topic? is that why you responded? I would hope not, as you seem to think you're a smart man.
My opinion is rooted as deeply as yours probably is, and happens to be what most people agree with, so yes - I wasn't trying to convince you, I was trying to convince other people reading that your opinion lacks a solid base, and to side with me because I care about the bigger picture and as I and you both already pointed out, I am not concerned with your opinion, you're not someone I respect enough to make me second guess myself on something that I feel strongly about. Great job though, you must've been watching a bunch of Sherlock.
I understand why your answer would be to call me stupid instead of arguing against my points or for yours, but hey you know what they say,
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith
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region locking removes opportuinities for really good korean players to play on the biggest tournaments, i would rather have a korean then to have that performance lilbow gave in wcs =/
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Katowice25012 Posts
We're all friends here let's keep it relaxed : - )
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I don't see why barcode and ladder WCS points would not work together. As long as the player can clearly show his account is at the required level to the officials of the tournament that's good enough. But that would go against the viewer experience because people will want to know how well the players are doing on the ladder if it grants WCS points. So it would be good for competition but it's bad for viewer-ship.
For streaming, well it's a game in which everything you do does not belong to you, it belongs to blizzard, you are not entitled to any privacy once you are on battle.net (other than personnal IRL information), read up the terms of agreement (i don't pretend I always do, i did once for the lolz and it's in there xD).
So nobody should give a fuck about showing someone else play through their stream without their approval.
But another thing that I would use to argue against ladder granting WCS is that you should not earn points for a Bo1 free for all format when the thing you are qualifying for is a Bo3 bests in the world championship format with several rounds. That's why it would also be stupid to see players receive WCS points from proleague; it's two different play modes that should not be related to each other.
Using ladder for qualification only works for code B because you gotta start somewhere. And even then it only lets you participate into an actual qualifier tournament to really qualify and get to code B.
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On November 24 2015 01:29 MonkeyBot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 00:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock Lilbow wasn't a debacle. It was one player managing his PR badly and showing some bravado to cover his loss of hope. Sure it shouldn't have happened, but what was the resulting harm - one series that was one-sided vs the second best player in the world? It certainly shouldn't weigh in on how the whole system is designed.
You're right, it wasn't just a debacle. It was also an embarrassment, a farce, a complete waste of everyones time and a slap in the face of every foreign player who actually gives a damn about the game as well the Korean who missed out on Blizzcon because Lilbow got everything handed to him on a silver platter thanks to the stupid region lock.
In short, I stand by my original statement, to end the farce that was Lilbow at Blizzcon, the only solution is to end the farce that is the region lock.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2015 05:35 NonY wrote:
You are confused because there are two issues going on. One issue is the skill level of non-Koreans. This is an issue because competition without Koreans is not as interesting for viewers who like seeing high level play and it's an issue when non-Koreans play Koreans because the Koreans win too often. If you want to classify viewers into two basic categories: viewers who watch for the games themselves and viewers who watch for the storylines, BOTH kinds of viewers are suffering due to this skill discrepancy. So there are a lot of people trying to figure out ways to raise the skill level of non-Koreans so that the games themselves are more interesting and so that there are more opportunities for storylines and drama and interactions than "oh shit is a non-Korean going to beat a Korean?"
I am confused, but because of the fact that you address a different topic than you quoted. However I agree with you that there are people trying to raise the skill level of non-koreans and in my opinion that can only be positive for the global competition. How is your opinion on that?
+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2015 05:35 NonY wrote:
You're not forced to stream but you can't stop someone from streaming you. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue for the abandonment of the ladder as a practice tool here, like anyone can do just as well by playing only private games, but the history of successful players certainly doesn't support that. Many successful players have gotten a large portion of their practice from ladder or they practice with people who get a large portion of practice from the ladder. It's nearly impossible to find players who have not directly or indirectly benefited from ladder practice.
The ladder is public so you can't demand any privacy? It doesn't have to be so black and white, as if any public place has zero privacy and any private place has perfect privacy. If you aren't able to think past that then I guess we're at an impasse. Similarly, if you cannot think of any legitimate reason to desire privacy and can only think that of it as an opportunity to be irresponsible, then again we're at an impasse.
Actually I was arguing on the exact opposite. The ladder can be even a better practice tool if players don't hide behind barcodes. This would even promote sportsmanship which is something that most people in competitive online communities lost.
Anonymity is a very young phenomenon introduced with the internet. With the time it became more and more a habituation on a day-to-day basis and people grew familiar with the idea of anonymity being a normal thing. But it is not. Anonymity is not normal nor natural, because it destroys a sense of resposibility.
Please don't confuse anonymity with privacy. Everyone has a right for privacy, especially people who stand in the spotlights of the public, metaphorically speaken. And you can get all the privacy you want but not by abusing a system which was meant to be used otherwise.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2015 05:35 NonY wrote:
What is the point of you saying any of this? I already recognized that people like you exist. If you are in the majority and you want to enjoy the tyranny of the majority, then go ahead and continue to marginalize the experiences and interests of anyone who is different than you. I can't stop it if the majority wants to band together and use their leverage to get more things that they want despite what other people want. Keep justifying it with utilitarianism or whatever.
Just a bit above you wrote that things are seldom purely black and white, right? So isn't it possible for people like me who like drama and people like you who like pure high level play to both enjoy a game that can deliver both at the same time? Surely there are even more groups of people with other interests who can also pull the things they enjoy from this game simultaneously.
So no, the interests of one group does not automatically marginalize the interests of another group (but there are overlaps) . There is enough room for everyone.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2015 05:35 NonY wrote:
There's no need to make things up? There is a need when people want privacy. But to you privacy only exists for deviants to be irresponsible I guess. When the public doesn't know the full story they fill in the gaps and make assumptions and judgments with what they've got. Then the people who are being judged have a decision to make: give up their privacy to get the truth out there or let the misunderstandings exist and not care what people think (or deal with it however they want). How will this burden help non-Koreans catch up to Koreans? How will it make players more mentally stable and consistent? It seems like a distraction to me. Any time some jackass looking for youtube views can construe a ladder game against you as some kind of dramatic event, you either have to suffer being exploited and misunderstood or you have to waste your time defending yourself to the public.
I really don't get how a random ladder game could possibly blow up to a public drama fest as long as you act like a reasonable human being. Maybe you can exlain your thought process here.
If you don't want to share private topics with the public then don't write about private topics on ladder games. Isn't it simple?
+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2015 05:35 NonY wrote:
Anyway, if you can so easily give me a list of interesting things that have happened over the year during tournaments, then do you really need even MORE shit from the ladder? You aren't even at risk of losing drama. You are just concerned that you are missing out on even more drama from the ladder. Is it really so necessary? If you had to choose between non-Koreans being as good as Koreans or having more drama, which would you choose? Maybe that should help guide your desires for the community.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm not personally interested in possible drama happening on the ladder without barcodes. I'm interested in a healthier community competing with each other on a higher level without the need of anonymity. (people are of course still anonymous to some degree because of their nicknames)
On the other hand there are players who will create drama even on the ladder and that is okay because it's their character and there will be people who like to watch streams like this as well as people who like to watch streams for learning purposes, like yours for example. (see my argument above)
+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2015 05:35 NonY wrote:
Were you going to argue for this in some way or just state your opinion to contradict mine?
I thought this would be self-explaining for anyone with a bit of general knowledge but sure.
Let's take a closer look at other games with higher degrees of anonymity.
An extreme example would be free casual games. The players don't care for other players. They don't care what happens with the game or the community. Maybe because they rarely interact with each other, maybe because they don't want to interact, maybe because they think it is useless to interact with a random stranger which they most likely will never meet again in the game. As a result this games have a really short lifespan and practically no online community.
What about more competitive games like Call of Duty? The player base underlies a fast exchange because not many players stick with the game longer than a couple of months, maybe even weeks. This also results in a higher degree of anonymity. I hope you don't need examples on how players usually interact with eatch other in these games online. There is some sense of online community but mostly everyone just cares about himself.
An opposite example would be MMOs like world of warcraft. You have to stick with a character that has a permanent name. As a result most people that want to achieve something or want to compete with others act reasonable and thoughtful, they try to play a role in the community and still can compete with others without the fear of getting exploited in the public.
How is this possible? Because everyone has to play under the same rules.
Of course there other factors like age, popularity, different genre, etc. which makes it not comparable 1:1 but you get the idea.
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EPT
