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On October 25 2015 09:24 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit. What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you? Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this".
If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this.
My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know".
As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
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On October 25 2015 09:33 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 09:24 MaCRo.gg wrote:On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit. What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you? Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west". I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this". If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this. My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know". As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that.
You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers?
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On October 25 2015 11:30 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 09:33 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 09:24 MaCRo.gg wrote:On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit. What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you? Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west". I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this". If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this. My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know". As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any. To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that. You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers?
I don't "know" better, it's not about knowledge. This question cannot possibly be about knowledge... do I know more about than any law in the world than the judges in those countries? No. Nor about the culture and the local preferences. I might have a case for ethics and morality though. Not that I'm right. But I have a case.
And do I actually care about the individuals? These individuals in particular, maybe just a little bit, but frankly not really, I've never been a fan of any of them except Hwasin back in the day, and I lost any respect I had for him when he fixed matches. It's the injustice in general that I'm concerned with, disregarding national preferences. This, to me, regardless of where it happens, is unjust.
And furthermore, the idea that the locals automatically "know better" than others because they've been working at something for a long time is an maddeningly ridiculous notion. Especially when it comes to these questions where there's not one definite obvious answer.
On that note I've said all I had to say on this topic, I'll answer to PMs should there be any, but twisting this into a national thing and martyrdom, eh. It's getting out of hand. Cheers and best luck to everyone involved.
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On October 25 2015 11:30 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 09:33 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 09:24 MaCRo.gg wrote:On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit. What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you? Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west". I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this". If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this. My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know". As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any. To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that. You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers? Soooo if someone puts effort into a scene, they suddenly have a better understanding of justice and morality? Your bringing up the west and all this random ancillary shit and yet you cant even string together a sentence that follows basic rules of logic.
You a funny guy.
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On October 25 2015 12:20 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 11:30 MaCRo.gg wrote:On October 25 2015 09:33 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 09:24 MaCRo.gg wrote:On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit. What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you? Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west". I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this". If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this. My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know". As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any. To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that. You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers? Soooo if someone puts effort into a scene, they suddenly have a better understanding of justice and morality? Your bringing up the west and all this random ancillary shit and yet you cant even string together a sentence that follows basic rules of logic. You a funny guy.
I hope you eventually let go of the hate and find peace.
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On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
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On October 25 2015 09:24 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit. What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
If those government officials are in a law making capacity, they have the ability to make the laws that govern this behavior. If they are not, and in this case they are not, then they are using their position of authority to stir up people to support what they think should be the law throughpublic pressure to 'force' a company to abide by it.
Convicted hackers are frequently prohibited from using computers by law. There's no reason you can't make the same sort of law for matchfixers and streaming. The point is that there isn't one.
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Poland3751 Posts
On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
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On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. Show nested quote +The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. Show nested quote +The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong  I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
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On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system.
2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
OK, I misunderstood your post then 
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On October 26 2015 20:29 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right. OK, I misunderstood your post then
Np. I agree with you btw, it's sad when people skip this important right. This behavior might be worse in Korea (than in the west) but it's not exclusive to Koreans at all, unfortunately..
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On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Oh, I see.
Perhaps the gun was jumped then, but I'm sure that if in reality the match-fixers didn't really match-fix, they'll be able to continue streaming, no?
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France10201 Posts
On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
Okay so... Who is right ?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 26 2015 22:57 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right. Okay so... Who is right ?
Both of them?
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France10201 Posts
On October 26 2015 23:10 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 22:57 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right. Okay so... Who is right ? Both of them?
Sorry i don't get it
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On October 26 2015 23:30 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 23:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 22:57 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:
[quote]
Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right. Okay so... Who is right ? Both of them? Sorry i don't get it
Penev is right because South Korea legally respects presumption of innonence, and Chuddinater is right because the South Korean culture has a tendency not to respect presumption of innocence. Although I would say that it is not just the case of the SK culture but of literally any culture.
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On October 26 2015 22:14 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Oh, I see. Perhaps the gun was jumped then, but I'm sure that if in reality the match-fixers didn't really match-fix, they'll be able to continue streaming, no?
You mean after they proved their innocence? (;
What they should have done probably is to have them suspended from streaming while the investigation/ trial runs.
On October 26 2015 23:56 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 23:30 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 26 2015 23:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 22:57 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/ Are you serious? Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:
[quote]
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin? First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations? Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves. The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles. The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial. The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country. I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post: 1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right. Okay so... Who is right ? Both of them? Sorry i don't get it Penev is right because South Korea legally respects presumption of innonence, and Chuddinater is right because the South Korean culture has a tendency not to respect presumption of innocence. Although I would say that it is not just the case of the SK culture but of literally any culture.
indeed
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EPT
