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On October 24 2015 21:56 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 13:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote:
So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer? Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity? Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.  edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument." Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
So is Kespa a part of the government? I believed at the very least they were formed by the government, right?
I don't actually know for sure.
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Poland3746 Posts
On October 24 2015 21:56 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 13:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote:
So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer? Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity? Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States. edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument." Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
That's why they can't participate in progaming events anymore, streaming is different. Banning from streaming would be justified if they i.e. embedded subliminal ads in their stream.
Also uniformed services are generally special cases in many aspects.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49489 Posts
can we clarify if that were only banned from just streaming KeSPA sanctioned games or streaming in general.
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On October 24 2015 22:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 21:56 Doodsmack wrote:On October 23 2015 13:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote:
So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer? Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity? Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States. edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument." Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do. So is Kespa a part of the government? I believed at the very least they were formed by the government, right? I don't actually know for sure.
No it has nothing to do with government except that the government allows it to act as a regulatory organ, it's otherwise completely privately owned and it's a sort of union/management body that regulates e-sports with a iron fist. It regulates some of the institutions like tournaments managers, players and various organizations that are involved in e-sports, and to my knowledge, while it's technically possible NOT to adhere to KESPA as a player/organization of any kind, it's essentially suicide because KESPA is massively authoritarian and corporatist, as unions with a lot of power tend to be. And so they get to bully the fuck out of everyone who doesn't want to play by their rules, and they smother the competition. So even the orgs that are not part of KESPA have to adhere to their rules because if they don't, they'll get boycotted, the KESPA players won't be allowed to deal with that org, or they'll be blown the fuck out one way or the other. If you want to function in korean esports, you have to get in line.
The reason why you thought it was government is that it's powerful enough to coerce people like government can.
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On October 24 2015 06:56 mishimaBeef wrote:
hey BW guys, remember when you stole from us and we punished you? well more people stole from us so we're gonna punish you again
can someone justify this? cuz it seems like total kespa bs
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On October 24 2015 23:17 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 06:56 mishimaBeef wrote:
hey BW guys, remember when you stole from us and we punished you? well more people stole from us so we're gonna punish you again can someone justify this? cuz it seems like total kespa bs
Wow what has TL become?
Let me quote myself so I can continually hate on KeSPA. LMFAO
This bash fest is hilarious.
Were you a big Hwasin stream watcher? Angry about all the balloons you bought on Afreeca?
What kind of ego lets you think you have the "proper, academic" position compared to the Koreans that have bled and funded eSports since its inception? SMH
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it's a simple question. i don't claim to have the "proper, academic" anything. just an opinion that kespa sucks.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49489 Posts
On October 25 2015 00:58 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 23:17 mishimaBeef wrote:On October 24 2015 06:56 mishimaBeef wrote:
hey BW guys, remember when you stole from us and we punished you? well more people stole from us so we're gonna punish you again can someone justify this? cuz it seems like total kespa bs Wow what has TL become? Let me quote myself so I can continually hate on KeSPA. LMFAO This bash fest is hilarious. Were you a big Hwasin stream watcher? Angry about all the balloons you bought on Afreeca? What kind of ego lets you think you have the "proper, academic" position compared to the Koreans that have bled and funded eSports since its inception? SMH
a couple of things
first, you need to relax man its really hard to communicate if you're going to be aggressive, of course this goes both ways and the other person is also not cooperative to discussion that is not in line with his beliefs.
second, do not take the opinion of one person be reflective of the entire community, just because he said something that you don't agree with does not mean you get to take it out on TL.
regardless maybe you can answer my question from my previous post.
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On October 25 2015 01:05 mishimaBeef wrote:
it's a simple question. i don't claim to have the "proper, academic" anything. just an opinion that kespa sucks.
I think you've made that clear. You have the right to have that opinion and not saying it is without reason.
However, I question why you would have such motivation against KeSPA's ruling and how you believe that your "boycott" decision could possibly effect or not effect the match fixers?
Pretty much none of these "KeSPA boycott" guys were watching match-fixers streams or had money invested in Afreeca's method of compensation. Yet feel like they were wronged somehow.
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i just think it's stupid. this and a lot of other stuff kespa did in the past.
i read a lot of 'real world analogies' in this controversy and i'm just wondering how people interpret the justification or application of 'real world analogy' to the BW guys getting re-punished for someone else's actions.
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Are they banned from streaming in general or only for starcraft? If in general this is fucked up.
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I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
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On October 24 2015 22:53 BLinD-RawR wrote:
can we clarify if that were only banned from just streaming KeSPA sanctioned games or streaming in general.
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Poland3746 Posts
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote:
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
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On October 25 2015 01:26 mishimaBeef wrote:
i just think it's stupid. this and a lot of other stuff kespa did in the past.
i read a lot of 'real world analogies' in this controversy and i'm just wondering how people interpret the justification or application of 'real world analogy' to the BW guys getting re-punished for someone else's actions.
i think you're ignorant and jumping on a bad bandwagon. Please with all due respect lets see how much you know about KeSPA and what they did in the past (at least this way he actually might do some research) and let's see how much stuff we can actually squash versus the stuff yeah, you very well have reason to be upset about.
The fact of the matter in this case, KeSPA wasn't forcing afreeca to do anything. They saw a conflict in interest in the fact that afreeca was letting BJs who were convicted of match fixing in the past were profiting from those games while afreeca was sponsoring competitive leagues in which those games were played. Those players could always stream elsewhere. It's fair to ask. They weren't forcing their hand at doing anything.
Devil's advocate.
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if this sc2 incident didn't surface, would they still have tried to ban the bw streamers at this time?
yeah consumers united in boycotting don't force a company's hand. the company has the option of going broke.
it can't be known what tactics kespa used (if any). their reputation of being "evil" may be melodramatic, but it exists for a reason.
also, if the "pp" incident was "the rules" then whoever made the rules needs to seriously reconsider what it's like to be in a pro match of starcraft... while they're at it maybe they can reconsider the forced regime of insane practice hours imposed on the players, maybe then they won't be so enticed to fix matches - it's no wonder players seek foreign teams
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On October 25 2015 04:32 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 01:26 mishimaBeef wrote:
i just think it's stupid. this and a lot of other stuff kespa did in the past.
i read a lot of 'real world analogies' in this controversy and i'm just wondering how people interpret the justification or application of 'real world analogy' to the BW guys getting re-punished for someone else's actions. i think you're ignorant and jumping on a bad bandwagon. Please with all due respect lets see how much you know about KeSPA and what they did in the past (at least this way he actually might do some research) and let's see how much stuff we can actually squash versus the stuff yeah, you very well have reason to be upset about. The fact of the matter in this case, KeSPA wasn't forcing afreeca to do anything. They saw a conflict in interest in the fact that afreeca was letting BJs who were convicted of match fixing in the past were profiting from those games while afreeca was sponsoring competitive leagues in which those games were played. Those players could always stream elsewhere. It's fair to ask. They weren't forcing their hand at doing anything. Devil's advocate.
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. When I first posted about how I thought it was dumb (before Afreeca folded), there was no outrage yet. It's just silly.
As for KeSPA not "forcing" Afreeca to do anything, well I think that has been answered correctly by a guy above me. If you don't have KeSPA's blessing, you die - or you suffer greatly. And Afreeca is publicly traded, which means that it will always fold under significant pressure because the shareholders won't let morality stand in the way of their profit. Any CEO which refused KeSPA's demand would get fired because of the sheer weight of that organization.
And where else can those players play? Azubu, Twitch KR? Who's left, really, that wouldn't get bullied by KeSPA if it allowed those players to stream?
But yeah to say that KeSPA didn't force anyone's hand is to completely misunderstand the very nature of KeSPA and it's coercive force. "Gonna let those players stream... alright, KeSPA players are no longer allowed to use your service". And then we'd watch the stock crash and burn.
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On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
On October 24 2015 23:06 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 22:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 24 2015 21:56 Doodsmack wrote:On October 23 2015 13:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote:
So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer? Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity? Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States. edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument." Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do. So is Kespa a part of the government? I believed at the very least they were formed by the government, right? I don't actually know for sure. No it has nothing to do with government except that the government allows it to act as a regulatory organ, it's otherwise completely privately owned and it's a sort of union/management body that regulates e-sports with a iron fist.
Don't forget that the head of KeSPA used to be a congressman and assembly leader from SK's Democratic Party.
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On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
Don't forget that the head of KeSPA used to be a congressman and assembly leader from SK's Democratic Party.
So if he worked at McDonalds would McDonalds suddenly become the right arm of government?
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On October 25 2015 09:09 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 08:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote:
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society? It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare? As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue." Show nested quote +I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue. I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality. Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"?
How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives?
No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
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EPT
