Ahn Joonyoung (aka Engine), former GSL commentator, condemns AfreecaTV`s decision not to take KeSPA`s request.
"In principle, there`s nothing wrong with Afreeca`s decision; it sucks though. I would understand if it was AfreecaTV before taking GSL, a mere streaming platform which cannot (and should not) control the content itself. However, you see it; Afreeca is producing SC2 league and now they`re holding the GSL. And are they saying they`re gonna guarantee the criminals` 'freedom' who hit a direct blow to the scene`s head? It is ridiculous to see Afreeca saying some gibberish calling it 'excuse' - now I`m wondering since when they have banned BJs considering such rules like 'double jeopardy.' *
(* AfreecaTV once banned certain BJs just because they streamed in some other sites)
It is just a matter of discretion (and operators` will), not some 'business right' stuff. (liberal translation: for better conveyance.) "
edit: dunno why there`s a 50-character limit for title -ㅅ-
I do agree with engine that they should be banned from afreeca solely because they themselves are producing leagues but they are still majorly a streaming service and as such can't really deny who can use their service(I could be wrong on this), but they can deny how they use their services, maybe disable the ability to get balloons from viewers? but then again even giving them more publicity is bad.
also for those who don't know BJ stands for Broadcasting Jockey.
If it's not written explicitely in their terms and condition that you can't be involved in this kind of scandals, then afreeca have no legal basis in banning them from streaming. It's that simple
On October 20 2015 22:13 oGoZenob wrote: If it's not written explicitely in their terms and condition that you can't be involved in this kind of scandals, then afreeca have no legal basis in banning them from streaming. It's that simple
Im totally with Engine with this. Sure, Afreeca could and would have kept this stance, and no one really could have said much about it BEFORE it announced it would be taking over GSL broadcasting from Gom. How can we truly recognize the integrity of the league if people who were involved in illegal betting over the game the league is hosting continue to have unfettered access to streaming and the money and influence that comes with it? For me, I'm quite disappointed by Afreeca's decision here; its not like they treated the big streamers who left to different platforms such as Koo with respect, they legally hammered those poor individuals looking for a change in scenery. It seems they only act so as to keep money flows from being banned or tampered with. Extreme dislike and a loss of respect from me as the next torch bearer of GSL.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
LOL. Nonsense. So because he is ENTERTAINING you think he should still be allowed to stream? You think because he is a good gamer gameplay wise he should be allowed to keep streaming? In the spirit of TB, absolute BOLLOCKS. These people have taken the fun out of professional gaming and tournaments by participating in illegal broker roles and betting significant amounts of money. They coerced people and other players, PROFESSIONAL players to deliberately throw their games in order to get some quick, cheap, illegal money. Professionals are professionals for a reason. They should not, PERIOD, partake in illegal activities simply because its easier to do so. What these dumbasses have done doesn't give them any excuse whatsoever to continue to have ANY relation towards the gaming industry and professional gaming scene. Its hard enough to convince people to take the gaming industry seriously without it being treated as a dumping ground for illegal betting.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
That's not how the law works lol. Think of it this way: If Twitch or TL bans you, then you can be angry, but you don't innately have the freedom or right to use any private service you want. Their house, their rules. Same thing with streaming on Twitch or Afreeca.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
LOL. Nonsense. So because he is ENTERTAINING you think he should still be allowed to stream? You think because he is a good gamer gameplay wise he should be allowed to keep streaming? In the spirit of TB, absolute BOLLOCKS. These people have taken the fun out of professional gaming and tournaments by participating in illegal broker roles and betting significant amounts of money. They coerced people and other players, PROFESSIONAL players to deliberately throw their games in order to get some quick, cheap, illegal money. Professionals are professionals for a reason. They should not, PERIOD, partake in illegal activities simply because its easier to do so. What these dumbasses have done doesn't give them any excuse whatsoever to continue to have ANY relation towards the gaming industry and professional gaming scene. Its hard enough to convince people to take the gaming industry seriously without it being treated as a dumping ground for illegal betting.
So why they have audience? It looks like there are people who actually don't care. As long as they have their audience let them stream. This is a totally different section. I don't understand why anyone caring about sc2 would watch them, but it's not MY choice to DENY THEM their favorite StReAM!
you guys are using some weird analogies. in the first place, savior has decided to stop streaming for years now. that dream can be fulfilled by befriending him, getting him drunk or whatever it takes, and asking him to play seriously somehow. or you could just browse the many (including up until the point he actually stopped streaming) collected vods. however, that time is long past and you've gotta accept that this has nothing to do with savior specifically. read: it was his own choice to stop streaming for revenue.
"Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun" they aren't gaming per say. they were or are doing a lot more than just that. they're bringing the world of adult life into the entertainment business of gaming where their job is to win. except they've taken the initiative to change their job to losing. think about their sponsors, team, teammates and anyone involved. it's a double-deal, and a double-crossing.
similarly, everything you do in life reflects upon the facts of your being. every action you make, there was an intelligent (awareness, understanding, logic, memory, planning, etc.) set of reasons behind it. even thrusting yourself into the life of a pro-gamer is or was at some point your decision.
and please don't beat the dead horse of whether or not afreeca has legal grounds to actually do it. they do, willingly or not.
On October 20 2015 22:35 bo1b wrote: How is it illegal though lol? If teamliquid decided to perma ban me for this post I doubt I could take them to court over it, it's there site.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: What if it was you?
I wouldn't be a piece of shit and try to ruin an esport?
It is easy to say that.
It is much harder to proof that.
In all 5 threads there is enough talk about how scene gets fixing problems when it is overcrowed by young players investing their whole youth and education into something that does not pay off due to the lack of money in the scene. It is no wonder that part of that scene will seek out for better income as people arround these players expect them to make money. And it is no wondern when they will find matchfixing as one of these sorts of generating money for later and at least get something out of the years they invested into the nothingnes of being a B-Teamer. Even with Yodas 100k it is not that much for arround 4 years of youth wasted and giving up on higher education.
I dont say they should be allowed to play in a tournament again nor should ring leaders like gerrard or Savior be allowed to have anything to do with the scene, but I can be something else then lenient to the average B-Teamer fixer, late teen, early tween, desperate for makeing something out of this game they invested so much. And thus I cannot understand how you want to ban them from any form of streaming just because of the sake of punishment. If people enjoy their stream, why not letting them enjoy. All others who have a gigantic anger at these guys can still vote with their views. Nobody forces you to watch them, to give them balloons, but who wants to do it, just let them do it.
Teamliquid and you are no buisness partners, streamers who earn balloons and show ads during stream are buisnesspartners with their plattform. It is a hole other level to kick them out.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters.
We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment.
Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters.
We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment.
Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
Except counting cards isn't illegal, and card games have been around for over a thousand years... Whereas computer games and e-sports have been around for a few decades, and matchfixing is explicitly illegal.
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote: Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
Games are a sandbox by nature. You plus zero or more other people decide to interact with each other using specific rules sets and limitations. Those limitations allow for causal interactions that generates either direct or indirect narratives in each individuals personal experience. When the rules and limitations of that sandbox is violated then it is no longer a game--it is deceit.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters.
We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment.
Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
Being observant isn't cheating. Card counting is using provided information and making decisions out of that information. Cheating is when the rules of the game are specifically violated.
For example, hiding extra cards, drawing extra cards, using non-standard decks, etc...
If a casino decided that it draws its cards from one deck and players cards from a separate deck--that's when cheating starts being the mode of discourse. But remembering that two kings have already been played so now you're less likely to see 2 kings come up is just being observant.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters.
We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment.
Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
Dude, are you missing the part of the story where Afreeca is hosting the streams of people involved in match fixing WHILE AT THE VERY SAME TIME hosting the GSL?
How are you supposed to be confident that match fixing is not happening in the GSL when the very organisation hosting the GSL is turning a blind eye to cheaters on their streaming service?!
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters.
We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment.
Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
except the last match-fixing scandal actually did ruin the Brood War scene and put the entire Korean esport industry in jeopardy. It drove away sponsors, caused eight teams to disband, and shutdown one of the biggest gaming channel at the time. Same thing happened with Korea's WC3 scene.
oh pls if it's not against afreeca's TOS, why should they ban them?
and Twitch complying with Kespa's request is just silly. Maybe they should focus their attention on the number of cam girls streaming on their on platform first.
However, with that being said, this is very bad optics for Afreeca considering that they are the ones hosting GSL.
On October 21 2015 04:17 ilikeredheads wrote: oh pls if it's not against afreeca's TOS, why should they ban them?
and Twitch complying with Kespa's request is just silly. Maybe they should focus their attention on the number of cam girls streaming on their on platform first.
However, with that being said, this is very bad optics for Afreeca considering that they are the ones hosting GSL.
Why would you associate cam girls with cheating? Outright malicious cheating?
How you look (good or bad) should not matter when you're streaming.
You affecting the integrity of the profession you are in--that should matter.
On October 21 2015 04:17 ilikeredheads wrote: oh pls if it's not against afreeca's TOS, why should they ban them?
and Twitch complying with Kespa's request is just silly. Maybe they should focus their attention on the number of cam girls streaming on their on platform first.
However, with that being said, this is very bad optics for Afreeca considering that they are the ones hosting GSL.
Are you seriously comparing cam girls (a divisive issue which most of us can't even agree on whether it's a problem) and matchingfixing, which is a crime, and is capable of torpedoeing an e sport? Whatever your issues are with girls who stream on twitch please go project them somewhere else.
On October 20 2015 20:56 BLinD-RawR wrote: I do agree with engine that they should be banned from afreeca solely because they themselves are producing leagues but they are still majorly a streaming service and as such can't really deny who can use their service(I could be wrong on this), but they can deny how they use their services, maybe disable the ability to get balloons from viewers? but then again even giving them more publicity is bad.
also for those who don't know BJ stands for Broadcasting Jockey.
yeah this is my take on it as well
it's a conflict of interest
really i guess the cheaters should be allowed to stream but (obviously) banned from the GSL or any afreeca run events
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
Rofl Streaming isn't a like a 9 to 5 streaming at afreeca isn't a job it's using a service provided by a website. If they wish to deny you access to the service because your face is ugly you have no say in it. hmm actually That's exactly like a 9 to 5 job actually except then you can technically press charges but you don't have the money for it
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Big difference between someone who hacks on ladder, and a matchfixer where money is involved.
Just because Afreeca is the primary streaming service for a SC2 tournament doesn't mean they should have to ban people who once were involved in matchfixing. They are still independent. The players that have once matchfixed should be free to stream however they want. They may have committed a crime, but they should not be punished by every service and organization out there.
Though it is sort of lame for Afreeca to ever ban someone for using another streaming service. Perhaps if there were like, contracts involved. So this does seem a bit hypocritical, but even still, Afreeca is a business and can run it how they would like.
This would be entirely different if the streamers were actively participating in illegal activities while streaming. But I highly doubt that's the case. The people are likely just playing games and entertaining viewers with their commentary.
I still think kespa's demand is an overreaction. As already said: match-fixers got punished or will get punished. What's the harm in letting them stream? I can't think of any other reason than revenge which lets it look like vigilantism to me.
What I'm not sure of: will they're able to compete in GSL? This really would be bad. But if they're only allowed to stream, then afreeca is not supporting matchfixers (in the sense of supporting actual matchfixing) but only supporting ex-criminals which is ok with me.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
LOL. Nonsense. So because he is ENTERTAINING you think he should still be allowed to stream? You think because he is a good gamer gameplay wise he should be allowed to keep streaming? In the spirit of TB, absolute BOLLOCKS. These people have taken the fun out of professional gaming and tournaments by participating in illegal broker roles and betting significant amounts of money. They coerced people and other players, PROFESSIONAL players to deliberately throw their games in order to get some quick, cheap, illegal money. Professionals are professionals for a reason. They should not, PERIOD, partake in illegal activities simply because its easier to do so. What these dumbasses have done doesn't give them any excuse whatsoever to continue to have ANY relation towards the gaming industry and professional gaming scene. Its hard enough to convince people to take the gaming industry seriously without it being treated as a dumping ground for illegal betting.
So why they have audience? It looks like there are people who actually don't care. As long as they have their audience let them stream. This is a totally different section. I don't understand why anyone caring about sc2 would watch them, but it's not MY choice to DENY THEM their favorite StReAM!
As a company who survives on money, I would understand why they would not want to ban them from streaming. As a company who is a company in the first place simply because they love gaming and want gaming to be a successful thing, I don't understand why they won't ban them from streaming.
Sure what people saying about "they don't have to" is right, but the issue isn't that they HAVE TO, it's that they should because it's the right thing to do.
If people don't give shits about morality, then they'll support immoral activities, but the right to give immoral people part time jobs is in Afreeca's hands. They get to choose.
On October 21 2015 06:01 fronkschnonk wrote: I still think kespa's demand is an overreaction. As already said: match-fixers got punished or will get punished. What's the harm in letting them stream? I can't think of any other reason than revenge which lets it look like vigilantism to me.
What I'm not sure of: will they're able to compete in GSL? This really would be bad. But if they're only allowed to stream, then afreeca is not supporting matchfixers (in the sense of supporting actual matchfixing) but only supporting ex-criminals which is ok with me.
It's not supporting match fixing, but it is supporting match fixers
streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
On October 21 2015 06:43 ilikeredheads wrote: streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
I don't think you quite grasp the statement.
Afreeca banning match fixers will stop match fixers from promoting and supporting themselves using the game that they illegally manipulated as an avenue. Afreeca allowing match fixers will allow match fixers to promote and support themselves using the game that they illegally manipulated as an avenue.
Again, Afreeca, by allowing match fixers to stream, is not supporting match FIXING, but they are supporting match FIXERS. That is the part in question. Allowing fixers to still make money off of a game that they tainted by illegally manipulating for illegal cash.
On October 21 2015 06:43 ilikeredheads wrote: streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
It is not a slippery slope when you are both supporting via your service people who were caught being match fixers on a game and broadcasting next season one of the premier leagues of the very game. It is a huge mistake. This is just not the right signal to send.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation 5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation 5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation 5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
.. and what exactly did i say?
edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS?
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation 5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
.. and what exactly did i say?
edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS?
Sorry, for some reason I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster, not refuting him.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation 5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
.. and what exactly did i say?
edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS?
Sorry, for some reason I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster, not refuting him.
Nah, just tried to make clear that they can press charges all they want - the ToS directly enables AfreecaTV basically to do whatever they want, apart from, if they somehow can prove it, things like as you mentioned: racial discrimination etc.
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote: Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation.
Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed.
In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did.
What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment.
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn?
Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2?
There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)?
This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive.
What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now?
If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd.
Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote: Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation.
Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed.
In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did.
What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment.
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn?
Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2?
There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)?
This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive.
What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now?
If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd.
Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
Here's the thing: what Kespa is doing isn't something coming out of their own sense of entitlement. It's an action that was supported heavily by the key members of the Korean scene even during the Brood War match-fixing incident, and now gained even greater following with the latest event. People were disgusted seeing savior become top streamer in Afreeca and making money off of playing Brood War while seeing teams disband and MBC Gaming shutdown due to the consequences of what he did to the scene. In many ways, Kespa is acting on behalf of the Korean community and not just out of self interest.
Also, if Afreeca had a history of being some defender of freedom and equality like they are acting right now, people won't be as outraged as they are about their decision. Afreeca has a pretty bad reputation for abusing their position as the no.1 streaming platform in Korea and acting out of self-interest. The fact that they are now the organizers of GSL is what's aggravating the people even more, and it's been viewed as mere political power play against Kespa. There's even talks in the community about boycotting Afreeca and GSL.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
No. They're still being allowed to make money off something they took advantage of. In this case if AfreecaTV chose to ban them from using THEIR streaming services they have every right.
Considering they sponsor leagues and shit they would have every reason to in order to uphold their integrity. So the former GSL commentator has a valid point. Surely they could always take their streaming elsewhere.
On October 20 2015 22:30 -Celestial- wrote: Literally can't agree more.
After getting the rights to the GSL, Afreeca decides to put its foot down in support of matchfixers? Seriously...what? Ridiculous.
I dunno, AfreecaTV is a private enterprise. And private enterprises technically don't have a right to judge and punish people; the government does as it's their job.
On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote: Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked? The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments. Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming. Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained. What if it was you?
Sorry, massively disagree.
Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming.
I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no.
Massively disagree.
I agree with bluestar.
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
People act like this is a murder trial.
You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats.
I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND...
Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
No. They're still being allowed to make money off something they took advantage of. In this case if AfreecaTV chose to ban them from using THEIR streaming services they have every right.
Considering they sponsor leagues and shit they would have every reason to in order to uphold their integrity. So the former GSL commentator has a valid point. Surely they could always take their streaming elsewhere.
Surely where? They paid their price under the law and that's that. No non-governmental organizations should further punish people in their own standard. What do you think courts are for?
On October 20 2015 20:56 BLinD-RawR wrote: I do agree with engine that they should be banned from afreeca solely because they themselves are producing leagues but they are still majorly a streaming service and as such can't really deny who can use their service(I could be wrong on this), but they can deny how they use their services, maybe disable the ability to get balloons from viewers? but then again even giving them more publicity is bad.
also for those who don't know BJ stands for Broadcasting Jockey.
I will concede to this point alone. If you are hosting GSL on your platform, it is justification to deny streamers who hurt your product so directly.
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote: Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation.
Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed.
In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did.
What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment.
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn?
Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2?
There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)?
This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive.
What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now?
If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd.
Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
Afreeca has everything to do with this because it is hosting the GSL. Stop making up weird comparisons with Disney on ice (srs wtf), and realise that the organiser of the most important sc2 tournament is at the same time, allowing people who matchfixed in that same game, the stream.
It's not like there's currently (or will be) so many matchfixers using AfreecaTV. I can't imagine them losing any money by following KeSPA's request. This is simply a terrible business move that will hurt their brand.
On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote: What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary?
Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation 5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
.. and what exactly did i say?
edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS?
Sorry, for some reason I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster, not refuting him.
Nah, just tried to make clear that they can press charges all they want - the ToS directly enables AfreecaTV basically to do whatever they want, apart from, if they somehow can prove it, things like as you mentioned: racial discrimination etc.
well to be fair, my hypothesis came from my previous post stating that "if they dont have something related in their terms and conditions, then...". Since they have, the case is closed ^^
On October 21 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote: What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
What does Afreeca have to do with it? Oh only the fact that they're going to be hosting the biggest, most important SC2 tournament in the entire world, the GSL. This is absolutely a conflict of interests.
Also I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to end up in prison, neither of the players or Gerrard at least. Looking at the punishments for the BW scandal you can probably expect a mix of fines and community service for those three, plus gambling addiction therapy for Gerrard.
On October 20 2015 22:30 -Celestial- wrote: Literally can't agree more.
After getting the rights to the GSL, Afreeca decides to put its foot down in support of matchfixers? Seriously...what? Ridiculous.
I dunno, AfreecaTV is a private enterprise. And private enterprises technically don't have a right to judge and punish people; the government does as it's their job.
As a private entity hey have the absolute right to ban whoever they want from their service. Therefore if they say they're banning matchfixers they're entitled to do that. And they SHOULD do that, because after taking over the GSL they have a responsibility to the scene.
On October 21 2015 06:43 ilikeredheads wrote: streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
I'm not against either of those options. Known pedophiles aren't allowed a lot of jobs if they're near children even though teaching =/= pedophelia. For the most part, I'm against allowing someone who is ruining a scene from being allowed to stay in the scene.
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote: Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation.
Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed.
In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did.
What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment.
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn?
Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2?
There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)?
This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive.
What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now?
If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd.
Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
No, you don't understand.
Casinos already ban people who do LEGAL things that hurt the game. Afreeca has more reason than casinos to ban people who do ILLEGAL things that hurt the game. If Casinos can ban people for doing LEGAL things then there is no reason why Afreeca can't ban people for doing ILLEGAL things.
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote: Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation.
Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed.
In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did.
What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment.
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn?
Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2?
There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)?
This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive.
What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now?
If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd.
Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
No, you don't understand.
Casinos already ban people who do LEGAL things that hurt the game. Afreeca has more reason than casinos to ban people who do ILLEGAL things that hurt the game. If Casinos can ban people for doing LEGAL things then there is no reason why Afreeca can't ban people for doing ILLEGAL things.
In some states in the US is was ruled by court illegal to ban card counters based on the fact counting is a skill they developed, therefore casinos do shady things like harass people and probably much worse to card counters.
Afreeca can probably do whatever they want to, just like I could ask someone I didn't like to leave my house. I just don't think they should, even if they are GOING to host GSL.
This hasn't even happened yet, the announcement was just made.
The claim that afreeca supports match-fixers just because they don't ban them is like a therapist saying I support murder because I tried to help someone that committed murder. Or claiming the same thing about a supermarket that sold the same person food.
I still have yet to hear a really compelling post about how this will deter match-fixing or "save esports" from the mortal wound struck by 5 fixed matches.
Boodwar is still alive as far as I can tell. While I don't know a lot about it, I can't imagine the scene was destroyed by savior. One person typically doesn't have that kind of power. If the scene was really flourishing then I seriously doubt people would turn away from it based on match-fixing.
Baseball for example, was not destroyed by match-fixing. Neither was the olympics for doping, cycling, etc... Name your sport basically. Curling however, may not survive the doping scandal!
On October 22 2015 11:01 ShambhalaWar wrote: The claim that afreeca supports match-fixers just because they don't ban them is like a therapist saying I support murder because I tried to help someone that committed murder. Or claiming the same thing about a supermarket that sold the same person food.
No, those are terrible analogies and people need to stop making poor and misleading comparisons. This is nothing to do with banning people from food, or computers or even the internet. Its to do with ousting matchfixers in such a way as to prevent them from being further associated with the professional side of a competitive activity in which they matchfixed. No more, no less.
This situation is like the organisers of the Tour de France advertising Lance Armstrong cycling lessons. You can make all the arguments in the world that they're not actually allowing him into the competition and they're merely providing a service by allowing such an advertisement, but they're still enabling him to make money from the sport whilst simultaneously running a huge and important competition that he was found cheating in and undermining the legitimacy of.
Its just totally incompatible and if Afreeca has any shred of respect for the SC2 esports scene in general or the GSL in particular then they should either ban these people OR give up the GSL.
On October 22 2015 11:01 ShambhalaWar wrote: The claim that afreeca supports match-fixers just because they don't ban them is like a therapist saying I support murder because I tried to help someone that committed murder. Or claiming the same thing about a supermarket that sold the same person food.
No, those are terrible analogies and people need to stop making poor and misleading comparisons. This is nothing to do with banning people from food, or computers or even the internet. Its to do with ousting matchfixers in such a way as to prevent them from being further associated with the professional side of a competitive activity in which they matchfixed. No more, no less.
This situation is like the organisers of the Tour de France advertising Lance Armstrong cycling lessons. You can make all the arguments in the world that they're not actually allowing him into the competition and they're merely providing a service by allowing such an advertisement, but they're still enabling him to make money from the sport whilst simultaneously running a huge and important competition that he was found cheating in and undermining the legitimacy of.
Its just totally incompatible and if Afreeca has any shred of respect for the SC2 esports scene in general or the GSL in particular then they should either ban these people OR give up the GSL.
In my opinion he should be allowed to make money off sc2.
Kespa shouldn't be allowed to govern how people make money, they same way the NBA shouldn't be allowed to govern how players make money. I supposed they should be able to say, "If you decide to earn a living in a way that reflects poorly upon us, you can't play in our league (even that can be iffy in certain situations)." Esports is kespa's domain, nothing else should they govern.
And I can't really imagine most people watching gsl will even play attention to whether yoda is streaming or not. It's like Micheal Vick in the NFL, I see him play and I am reminded of what he did, that part sucks.
AND... I see a guy that did his time in jail and turned his life around in a big way, who is now back in the NFL. I'm FOR THAT.
I'm not for, "He's a bad person! I hope he rots in hell. Once a criminal always a criminal." That's what people are really pushing for here right, demonizing someone?
If not, please tell me how this ban prevents more match-fixing from happening?
On October 22 2015 12:08 ShambhalaWar wrote: If not, please tell me how this ban prevents more match-fixing from happening?
the same way a steroid abusing MMA fighter is punished when 1 jurisdiction bans him and other jurisdictions honour the ban. its a business decision on the part of both KeSPA and Afreeca and any other organization. its all just voluntary co-operation.
in general many posts are trying to paint this as a moral issue. its just a business issue between various organizations.
Kespa could request that my IP be banned from watching Afreeca and from teh chat because i've received too many warnings and bans on TL.Net and they feel i might pollute the chat room with dumb comments.
KeSPA could request that i watch SC2 while standing on my head.
Let 'em do their thing.. no one has to agree to anything they request.
The punishments? It's deterrence. IMO they should not be allowed to further profit from the game which they have tainted, and have personally helped to destroy (the integrity of).
It's not about demonizing them; support them in their endeavors, sure, just not in SC2. I mean, think about it, isn't it much more powerful to force a criminal to re-learn and make a living out of a new skill (which he/she should then feel much less inclined to jeopardize), instead of allowing them to continue profiting off the same game in spite of the shit they pulled?
On October 22 2015 12:08 ShambhalaWar wrote: If not, please tell me how this ban prevents more match-fixing from happening?
the same way a steroid abusing MMA fighter is punished when 1 jurisdiction bans him and other jurisdictions honour the ban. its a business decision on the part of both KeSPA and Afreeca and any other organization. its all just voluntary co-operation.
in general many posts are trying to paint this as a moral issue. its just a business issue between various organizations.
Kespa could request that my IP be banned from watching Afreeca and from teh chat because i've received too many warnings and bans on TL.Net and they feel i might pollute the chat room with dumb comments.
KeSPA could request that i watch SC2 while standing on my head.
Let 'em do their thing.. no one has to agree to anything they request.
This makes sense to me, and I still think in that example off MMA jurisdictions the ban exists in the context of a competitive sport. That punishment has already happened here, lifetime ban from competition.
A ban from streaming is an extension past that. It effects more than just the world of sc2.
I do agree maybe it is business, I still don't believe this entirely, much of this feels emotionally driven imo.
On October 22 2015 12:47 fluidin wrote: The punishments? It's deterrence. IMO they should not be allowed to further profit from the game which they have tainted, and have personally helped to destroy (the integrity of).
It's not about demonizing them; support them in their endeavors, sure, just not in SC2. I mean, think about it, isn't it much more powerful to force a criminal to re-learn and make a living out of a new skill (which he/she should then feel much less inclined to jeopardize), instead of allowing them to continue profiting off the same game in spite of the shit they pulled?
Punishment as deterrence doesn't work, incarceration rates in the US show that. Some of the harshest "3 strikes and your out" rules didn't change anything, incarceration just rose. Does it have some effect, probably, but it won't prevent things like this. The fact that it has already happened again since bw, suggests a different strategy is needed.
Mandatory salaries for players is a suggestion that could be more effective.
On October 22 2015 12:47 fluidin wrote: The punishments? It's deterrence. IMO they should not be allowed to further profit from the game which they have tainted, and have personally helped to destroy (the integrity of).
It's not about demonizing them; support them in their endeavors, sure, just not in SC2. I mean, think about it, isn't it much more powerful to force a criminal to re-learn and make a living out of a new skill (which he/she should then feel much less inclined to jeopardize), instead of allowing them to continue profiting off the same game in spite of the shit they pulled?
Punishment as deterrence doesn't work, incarceration rates in the US show that. Some of the harshest "3 strikes and your out" rules didn't change anything, incarceration just rose. Does it have some effect, probably, but it won't prevent things like this. The fact that it has already happened again since bw, suggests a different strategy is needed.
Mandatory salaries for players is a suggestion that could be more effective.
Fear is an extremely poor long term motivator.
brah, I'm from Singapore, and I can tell you deterrence DOES work. It's just how far you're willing to go with it :/
On October 22 2015 11:01 ShambhalaWar wrote: The claim that afreeca supports match-fixers just because they don't ban them is like a therapist saying I support murder because I tried to help someone that committed murder. Or claiming the same thing about a supermarket that sold the same person food.
No, those are terrible analogies and people need to stop making poor and misleading comparisons. This is nothing to do with banning people from food, or computers or even the internet. Its to do with ousting matchfixers in such a way as to prevent them from being further associated with the professional side of a competitive activity in which they matchfixed. No more, no less.
This situation is like the organisers of the Tour de France advertising Lance Armstrong cycling lessons. You can make all the arguments in the world that they're not actually allowing him into the competition and they're merely providing a service by allowing such an advertisement, but they're still enabling him to make money from the sport whilst simultaneously running a huge and important competition that he was found cheating in and undermining the legitimacy of.
Its just totally incompatible and if Afreeca has any shred of respect for the SC2 esports scene in general or the GSL in particular then they should either ban these people OR give up the GSL.
In my opinion he should be allowed to make money off sc2.
Kespa shouldn't be allowed to govern how people make money, they same way the NBA shouldn't be allowed to govern how players make money. I supposed they should be able to say, "If you decide to earn a living in a way that reflects poorly upon us, you can't play in our league (even that can be iffy in certain situations)." Esports is kespa's domain, nothing else should they govern.
And I can't really imagine most people watching gsl will even play attention to whether yoda is streaming or not. It's like Micheal Vick in the NFL, I see him play and I am reminded of what he did, that part sucks.
AND... I see a guy that did his time in jail and turned his life around in a big way, who is now back in the NFL. I'm FOR THAT.
I'm not for, "He's a bad person! I hope he rots in hell. Once a criminal always a criminal." That's what people are really pushing for here right, demonizing someone?
If not, please tell me how this ban prevents more match-fixing from happening?
The ban is not to prevent matchfixing from ever happening again. Its purpose is to make the banned ones stay away from the business, to protect the credibility of its current actors.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9mwp2n7.png)
