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On October 21 2015 06:43 ilikeredheads wrote:
streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
I don't think you quite grasp the statement.
Afreeca banning match fixers will stop match fixers from promoting and supporting themselves using the game that they illegally manipulated as an avenue.
Afreeca allowing match fixers will allow match fixers to promote and support themselves using the game that they illegally manipulated as an avenue.
Again, Afreeca, by allowing match fixers to stream, is not supporting match FIXING, but they are supporting match FIXERS. That is the part in question. Allowing fixers to still make money off of a game that they tainted by illegally manipulating for illegal cash.
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On October 21 2015 06:43 ilikeredheads wrote:
streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
It is not a slippery slope when you are both supporting via your service people who were caught being match fixers on a game and broadcasting next season one of the premier leagues of the very game. It is a huge mistake. This is just not the right signal to send.
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On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation
5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason.
Good luck with that.
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On October 21 2015 07:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing Show nested quote +5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation
5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason. Good luck with that. Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
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On October 21 2015 08:00 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 07:56 m4ini wrote:On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing 5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation
5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason. Good luck with that. Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else.
.. and what exactly did i say?
edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS?
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On October 21 2015 08:03 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 08:00 bduddy wrote:On October 21 2015 07:56 m4ini wrote:On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing 5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation
5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason. Good luck with that. Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else. .. and what exactly did i say? edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS? Sorry, for some reason I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster, not refuting him.
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On October 21 2015 08:14 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 08:03 m4ini wrote:On October 21 2015 08:00 bduddy wrote:On October 21 2015 07:56 m4ini wrote:On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing 5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation
5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason. Good luck with that. Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else. .. and what exactly did i say? edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS? Sorry, for some reason I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster, not refuting him.
Nah, just tried to make clear that they can press charges all they want - the ToS directly enables AfreecaTV basically to do whatever they want, apart from, if they somehow can prove it, things like as you mentioned: racial discrimination etc.
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On October 21 2015 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them. However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal. It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation.
Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed.
In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did.
What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment.
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn?
Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2?
There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)?
This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive.
What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now?
If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd.
Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them. However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal. It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in. You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation. Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed. In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did. What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment. What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players. This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn? Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2? There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)? This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive. What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now? If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd. Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
Here's the thing: what Kespa is doing isn't something coming out of their own sense of entitlement. It's an action that was supported heavily by the key members of the Korean scene even during the Brood War match-fixing incident, and now gained even greater following with the latest event. People were disgusted seeing savior become top streamer in Afreeca and making money off of playing Brood War while seeing teams disband and MBC Gaming shutdown due to the consequences of what he did to the scene. In many ways, Kespa is acting on behalf of the Korean community and not just out of self interest.
Also, if Afreeca had a history of being some defender of freedom and equality like they are acting right now, people won't be as outraged as they are about their decision. Afreeca has a pretty bad reputation for abusing their position as the no.1 streaming platform in Korea and acting out of self-interest. The fact that they are now the organizers of GSL is what's aggravating the people even more, and it's been viewed as mere political power play against Kespa. There's even talks in the community about boycotting Afreeca and GSL.
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On October 21 2015 00:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:07 levelping wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? Sorry, massively disagree. Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming. I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no. Massively disagree. I agree with bluestar. Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. People act like this is a murder trial. You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats. I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND... Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did.
No. They're still being allowed to make money off something they took advantage of. In this case if AfreecaTV chose to ban them from using THEIR streaming services they have every right.
Considering they sponsor leagues and shit they would have every reason to in order to uphold their integrity. So the former GSL commentator has a valid point. Surely they could always take their streaming elsewhere.
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On October 20 2015 22:30 -Celestial- wrote:
Literally can't agree more.
After getting the rights to the GSL, Afreeca decides to put its foot down in support of matchfixers? Seriously...what? Ridiculous.
I dunno, AfreecaTV is a private enterprise. And private enterprises technically don't have a right to judge and punish people; the government does as it's their job.
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On October 21 2015 09:45 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 00:07 levelping wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? Sorry, massively disagree. Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming. I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no. Massively disagree. I agree with bluestar. Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. People act like this is a murder trial. You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats. I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND... Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. No. They're still being allowed to make money off something they took advantage of. In this case if AfreecaTV chose to ban them from using THEIR streaming services they have every right. Considering they sponsor leagues and shit they would have every reason to in order to uphold their integrity. So the former GSL commentator has a valid point. Surely they could always take their streaming elsewhere.
Surely where? They paid their price under the law and that's that. No non-governmental organizations should further punish people in their own standard. What do you think courts are for?
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
On October 20 2015 20:56 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I do agree with engine that they should be banned from afreeca solely because they themselves are producing leagues but they are still majorly a streaming service and as such can't really deny who can use their service(I could be wrong on this), but they can deny how they use their services, maybe disable the ability to get balloons from viewers? but then again even giving them more publicity is bad.
also for those who don't know BJ stands for Broadcasting Jockey.
I will concede to this point alone. If you are hosting GSL on your platform, it is justification to deny streamers who hurt your product so directly.
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On October 21 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them. However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal. It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in. You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation. Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed. In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did. What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment. What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players. This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn? Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2? There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)? This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive. What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now? If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd. Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
Afreeca has everything to do with this because it is hosting the GSL. Stop making up weird comparisons with Disney on ice (srs wtf), and realise that the organiser of the most important sc2 tournament is at the same time, allowing people who matchfixed in that same game, the stream.
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It's not like there's currently (or will be) so many matchfixers using AfreecaTV. I can't imagine them losing any money by following KeSPA's request. This is simply a terrible business move that will hurt their brand.
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On October 21 2015 08:19 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 08:14 bduddy wrote:On October 21 2015 08:03 m4ini wrote:On October 21 2015 08:00 bduddy wrote:On October 21 2015 07:56 m4ini wrote:On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing 5. Termination and AfreecaTV Account Cancellation
5.1Without limiting other remedies, AfreecaTV may immediately terminate or suspend your access to the Site and Services and remove any material (including User Submissions) from the Site or our servers, in the event that you breach these Terms of Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we also reserve the right to terminate the Site, Services or your access thereto at any time and for any reason. Good luck with that. Good luck with what? Afreeca or any other website is under no obligation to keep anyone's account open. They can ban whoever they want for any reason they want, except for things like racial discrimination. That's how the law works in the US, in Korea, and pretty much everywhere else. .. and what exactly did i say? edit: like, literally quoted right from their ToS? Sorry, for some reason I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster, not refuting him. Nah, just tried to make clear that they can press charges all they want - the ToS directly enables AfreecaTV basically to do whatever they want, apart from, if they somehow can prove it, things like as you mentioned: racial discrimination etc.
well to be fair, my hypothesis came from my previous post stating that "if they dont have something related in their terms and conditions, then...". Since they have, the case is closed ^^
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On October 21 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:
What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players.
What does Afreeca have to do with it? Oh only the fact that they're going to be hosting the biggest, most important SC2 tournament in the entire world, the GSL. This is absolutely a conflict of interests.
Also I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to end up in prison, neither of the players or Gerrard at least. Looking at the punishments for the BW scandal you can probably expect a mix of fines and community service for those three, plus gambling addiction therapy for Gerrard.
On October 21 2015 11:03 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 22:30 -Celestial- wrote:
Literally can't agree more.
After getting the rights to the GSL, Afreeca decides to put its foot down in support of matchfixers? Seriously...what? Ridiculous. I dunno, AfreecaTV is a private enterprise. And private enterprises technically don't have a right to judge and punish people; the government does as it's their job.
As a private entity hey have the absolute right to ban whoever they want from their service. Therefore if they say they're banning matchfixers they're entitled to do that. And they SHOULD do that, because after taking over the GSL they have a responsibility to the scene.
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On October 21 2015 06:43 ilikeredheads wrote:
streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
I'm not against either of those options. Known pedophiles aren't allowed a lot of jobs if they're near children even though teaching =/= pedophelia. For the most part, I'm against allowing someone who is ruining a scene from being allowed to stay in the scene.
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On October 21 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them. However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal. It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in. You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation. Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed. In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did. What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment. What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players. This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn? Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2? There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)? This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive. What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now? If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd. Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo.
No, you don't understand.
Casinos already ban people who do LEGAL things that hurt the game. Afreeca has more reason than casinos to ban people who do ILLEGAL things that hurt the game. If Casinos can ban people for doing LEGAL things then there is no reason why Afreeca can't ban people for doing ILLEGAL things.
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On October 22 2015 02:11 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them. However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal. It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in. You and a couple other people that posted are right, in that card-counting is not illegal and maybe a bad analogy to this situation. Back to my point which I ether explained poorly or was missed. In no way am I defending what Yoda or these other people did. What I am saying is that these people are being prosecuted, have a lifetime ban from competition, and who knows what other legal results. This is enough punishment. What does afreeca have to do with this situation? Absolutely nothing. What is absurd is that they are being dragged into something they have no connection to. These people are in jail, they aren't trying to stream sc2 or anything else. I don't remember Yoda streaming ever, and if he did it would probably be on twitch like most sc2 players. This kind of logic could go on forever, what else should these people be banned from? No Facebook because they shouldn't be seen in the public eye? Where is the line drawn? Now they shouldn't be able to stream ANY other game because they cheated at sc2? There was a counter strike team that used hacks in a major tournament match, considering the prize pool was probably MUCH higher than they amount these people earned, should they never be able to stream mariokart again or be banned form buying tickets to Disney on ice (because it send the wrong message to the kids)? This people in this story went to jail and got a lifetime ban from their livelihood, they have to start all over doing something else for a career. Maybe a civil suite follows and they lose a good amount of money. Trust me they are already heavily punished for what they did, a streaming ban is excessive. What feels bad about this is that kespa is forcing its agenda on afreeca. The only thing afreeca had to do with this cheating event, was that it might have been broadcast on their platform. They had no responsibility in putting that event together and regulating it, so why should they be involved now? If someone steals from a store and gets caught (goes to jail), does that mean they should be banned from shopping? Maybe they are not allowed back in that store, but to go around to other vendors and expect them to not admit the thief to me seems absurd. Also to claim that those stores (or afreeca) are supporting that thief because they didn't ban him is ridiculous imo. No, you don't understand. Casinos already ban people who do LEGAL things that hurt the game. Afreeca has more reason than casinos to ban people who do ILLEGAL things that hurt the game. If Casinos can ban people for doing LEGAL things then there is no reason why Afreeca can't ban people for doing ILLEGAL things.
In some states in the US is was ruled by court illegal to ban card counters based on the fact counting is a skill they developed, therefore casinos do shady things like harass people and probably much worse to card counters.
Afreeca can probably do whatever they want to, just like I could ask someone I didn't like to leave my house. I just don't think they should, even if they are GOING to host GSL.
This hasn't even happened yet, the announcement was just made.
The claim that afreeca supports match-fixers just because they don't ban them is like a therapist saying I support murder because I tried to help someone that committed murder. Or claiming the same thing about a supermarket that sold the same person food.
I still have yet to hear a really compelling post about how this will deter match-fixing or "save esports" from the mortal wound struck by 5 fixed matches.
Boodwar is still alive as far as I can tell. While I don't know a lot about it, I can't imagine the scene was destroyed by savior. One person typically doesn't have that kind of power. If the scene was really flourishing then I seriously doubt people would turn away from it based on match-fixing.
Baseball for example, was not destroyed by match-fixing. Neither was the olympics for doping, cycling, etc... Name your sport basically. Curling however, may not survive the doping scandal! 
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EPT
