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On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 00:07 levelping wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? Sorry, massively disagree. Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming. I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no. Massively disagree. I agree with bluestar. Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. People act like this is a murder trial. You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats. I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND... Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters. We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment. Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
Except counting cards isn't illegal, and card games have been around for over a thousand years... Whereas computer games and e-sports have been around for a few decades, and matchfixing is explicitly illegal.
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On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:
Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2.
False analogy. Card counting is neither illegal nor cheating; it is simply a simplistic way of rapidly calculating odds to give you the best possible chance of producing a favourable result. The reason casinos don't like card counters is that it stacks the odds more in the favour of the player. Which casinos obviously dislike because their entire business model is based on making profit by taking the player's money through having the odds stacked against the player. In essence if you become good at the game, the casinos no longer want you playing because then you start taking money from them rather than giving it to them.
However it is not illegal, nor is it a method of cheating. Casinos kick people out for it because they don't want to lose money. And they can refuse service to absolutely anyone for any reason. Much like Afreeca can refuse to provide a platform for matchfixers if they were to choose to, but they're not, they're supporting matchfixers in this. However, unlike card counting, matchfixing absolutely IS illegal.
It is frankly absurd that Afreeca is supporting matchfixers whilst simultaneously having the rights to the GSL. Frankly I think Blizzard should step in.
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Games are a sandbox by nature. You plus zero or more other people decide to interact with each other using specific rules sets and limitations. Those limitations allow for causal interactions that generates either direct or indirect narratives in each individuals personal experience. When the rules and limitations of that sandbox is violated then it is no longer a game--it is deceit.
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On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 00:07 levelping wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? Sorry, massively disagree. Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming. I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no. Massively disagree. I agree with bluestar. Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. People act like this is a murder trial. You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats. I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND... Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters. We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment. Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
Being observant isn't cheating. Card counting is using provided information and making decisions out of that information. Cheating is when the rules of the game are specifically violated.
For example, hiding extra cards, drawing extra cards, using non-standard decks, etc...
If a casino decided that it draws its cards from one deck and players cards from a separate deck--that's when cheating starts being the mode of discourse. But remembering that two kings have already been played so now you're less likely to see 2 kings come up is just being observant.
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On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 00:07 levelping wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? Sorry, massively disagree. Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming. I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no. Massively disagree. I agree with bluestar. Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. People act like this is a murder trial. You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats. I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND... Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters. We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment. Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
Dude, are you missing the part of the story where Afreeca is hosting the streams of people involved in match fixing WHILE AT THE VERY SAME TIME hosting the GSL?
How are you supposed to be confident that match fixing is not happening in the GSL when the very organisation hosting the GSL is turning a blind eye to cheaters on their streaming service?!
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 00:07 levelping wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? Sorry, massively disagree. Games are supposed to be fun, sure. And watching professional games should be a fun activity. Cheating, hacking, and matchfixing by pro-gamers completely ruins the integrity of the sport (and also, removes all the fun). Such behavior simply has no place in pro-gaming. I suppose twitch has hackers etc too. But is twitch also running the premier SC 2 tournament? No. Are the hackers on twitch pro-gamers? I don't know, but I am guessing no. Massively disagree. I agree with bluestar. Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. People act like this is a murder trial. You want to get all purist about the sport? Ban gambling with sc2 completely, because gambling is shady to begin with and often rigged. It is prone to exploitation. If it was a casino and a card counter went into play blackjack and ran the house for some money you might pat them on the back and say congrats. I don't agree with match-fixing and I see how it hurt the scene. AND... Jail and a lifetime ban is MORE THAN ENOUGH punishment for the petty shit they did. Also, one thousand or more card counters never ruined blackjack or poker, this won't ruin sc2. If sc2 is ruined, it will ruin itself all by itself. Cheaters don't have the power to ruin a scene that is flourishing. This scene isn't flourishing and it has nothing to do with cheaters. We should leave this drama and turn the energy back to what is really plaguing the sc2 enjoyment. Edit: LOL, I meant to edit my last post not quote myself XD
except the last match-fixing scandal actually did ruin the Brood War scene and put the entire Korean esport industry in jeopardy. It drove away sponsors, caused eight teams to disband, and shutdown one of the biggest gaming channel at the time. Same thing happened with Korea's WC3 scene.
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oh pls if it's not against afreeca's TOS, why should they ban them?
and Twitch complying with Kespa's request is just silly. Maybe they should focus their attention on the number of cam girls streaming on their on platform first.
However, with that being said, this is very bad optics for Afreeca considering that they are the ones hosting GSL.
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On October 21 2015 04:17 ilikeredheads wrote:
oh pls if it's not against afreeca's TOS, why should they ban them?
and Twitch complying with Kespa's request is just silly. Maybe they should focus their attention on the number of cam girls streaming on their on platform first.
However, with that being said, this is very bad optics for Afreeca considering that they are the ones hosting GSL.
Why would you associate cam girls with cheating? Outright malicious cheating?
How you look (good or bad) should not matter when you're streaming.
You affecting the integrity of the profession you are in--that should matter.
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On October 21 2015 04:17 ilikeredheads wrote:
oh pls if it's not against afreeca's TOS, why should they ban them?
and Twitch complying with Kespa's request is just silly. Maybe they should focus their attention on the number of cam girls streaming on their on platform first.
However, with that being said, this is very bad optics for Afreeca considering that they are the ones hosting GSL.
Are you seriously comparing cam girls (a divisive issue which most of us can't even agree on whether it's a problem) and matchingfixing, which is a crime, and is capable of torpedoeing an e sport? Whatever your issues are with girls who stream on twitch please go project them somewhere else.
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On October 20 2015 20:56 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I do agree with engine that they should be banned from afreeca solely because they themselves are producing leagues but they are still majorly a streaming service and as such can't really deny who can use their service(I could be wrong on this), but they can deny how they use their services, maybe disable the ability to get balloons from viewers? but then again even giving them more publicity is bad.
also for those who don't know BJ stands for Broadcasting Jockey.
yeah this is my take on it as well
it's a conflict of interest
really i guess the cheaters should be allowed to stream but (obviously) banned from the GSL or any afreeca run events
that's what would make the most sense
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On October 20 2015 22:31 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 22:18 odeSSa wrote:
What do you mean legal basis? It's their site, can't they decide who they ban arbitrary? Yes they can, but if the banned people decide to press charge, they have no ground to defend themselves. You don't just stop being protected by the law because you do a bad thing
Rofl
Streaming isn't a like a 9 to 5 streaming at afreeca isn't a job it's using a service provided by a website.
If they wish to deny you access to the service because your face is ugly you have no say in it.
hmm actually That's exactly like a 9 to 5 job actually except then you can technically press charges but you don't have the money for it 
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On October 20 2015 21:47 lichter wrote:
man I really miss Engine he was my favorite Korean SC2 caster I liked him too, he even did a couple English streams. Wonder what he's doing now... oh, Passionstone. @_@
And the complete lack of understanding people here have of the law is pretty sad.
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On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you?
Big difference between someone who hacks on ladder, and a matchfixer where money is involved.
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Just because Afreeca is the primary streaming service for a SC2 tournament doesn't mean they should have to ban people who once were involved in matchfixing. They are still independent. The players that have once matchfixed should be free to stream however they want. They may have committed a crime, but they should not be punished by every service and organization out there.
Though it is sort of lame for Afreeca to ever ban someone for using another streaming service. Perhaps if there were like, contracts involved. So this does seem a bit hypocritical, but even still, Afreeca is a business and can run it how they would like.
This would be entirely different if the streamers were actively participating in illegal activities while streaming. But I highly doubt that's the case. The people are likely just playing games and entertaining viewers with their commentary.
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I still think kespa's demand is an overreaction.
As already said: match-fixers got punished or will get punished. What's the harm in letting them stream?
I can't think of any other reason than revenge which lets it look like vigilantism to me.
What I'm not sure of: will they're able to compete in GSL? This really would be bad. But if they're only allowed to stream, then afreeca is not supporting matchfixers (in the sense of supporting actual matchfixing) but only supporting ex-criminals which is ok with me.
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On October 21 2015 00:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:44 Orlok wrote:On October 20 2015 22:35 BlueStar wrote:
Lol, would Twitch ban someone because he had hacked?
The banned gamers are good gamers.
I've dreamed of watching Savior FPView and now because someone decides to be noisy, let's bark to the sky...
and WTF guys
I bet there are tons of hackers no twitch, and via twitch are streamed all of the main tournaments.
Let's ban everyone who had used hacks.
Oh, and maybe - let's prohibit them using PCs because they are using the same internet as us?
Come on, they are gamers as we are. Games are for the gaming.
Game = fun
If you don't have fun and want to send someone behind the bars - go study and become some kind of lawyer or whatever.
These guys (the hackers) are wrong. They will be sorry till the end of their lives. They have entertained us with tons of great games and nice starcraft moments.. some ruined... try to be more restrained.
What if it was you? LOL. Nonsense. So because he is ENTERTAINING you think he should still be allowed to stream? You think because he is a good gamer gameplay wise he should be allowed to keep streaming? In the spirit of TB, absolute BOLLOCKS. These people have taken the fun out of professional gaming and tournaments by participating in illegal broker roles and betting significant amounts of money. They coerced people and other players, PROFESSIONAL players to deliberately throw their games in order to get some quick, cheap, illegal money. Professionals are professionals for a reason. They should not, PERIOD, partake in illegal activities simply because its easier to do so. What these dumbasses have done doesn't give them any excuse whatsoever to continue to have ANY relation towards the gaming industry and professional gaming scene. Its hard enough to convince people to take the gaming industry seriously without it being treated as a dumping ground for illegal betting. So why they have audience? It looks like there are people who actually don't care. As long as they have their audience let them stream. This is a totally different section. I don't understand why anyone caring about sc2 would watch them, but it's not MY choice to DENY THEM their favorite StReAM!
As a company who survives on money, I would understand why they would not want to ban them from streaming.
As a company who is a company in the first place simply because they love gaming and want gaming to be a successful thing, I don't understand why they won't ban them from streaming.
Sure what people saying about "they don't have to" is right, but the issue isn't that they HAVE TO, it's that they should because it's the right thing to do.
If people don't give shits about morality, then they'll support immoral activities, but the right to give immoral people part time jobs is in Afreeca's hands. They get to choose.
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On October 21 2015 06:01 fronkschnonk wrote:
I still think kespa's demand is an overreaction.
As already said: match-fixers got punished or will get punished. What's the harm in letting them stream?
I can't think of any other reason than revenge which lets it look like vigilantism to me.
What I'm not sure of: will they're able to compete in GSL? This really would be bad. But if they're only allowed to stream, then afreeca is not supporting matchfixers (in the sense of supporting actual matchfixing) but only supporting ex-criminals which is ok with me.
It's not supporting match fixing, but it is supporting match fixers
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streaming =/= matchfixing. Yes, what they did is terrible and absolutely deserve their lifetime ban from esports and whatever punishment they'll receive from the justice system, but streaming and competitive gaming are two different things. If you are going start banning them from streaming, you are entering a slippery slope. What's next? let's ban them from using a computer! or ban them from having internet access!
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What is all this about banning BJs? That sounds evil.
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EPT
