2015 StarCraft II Proleague Feedback - Page 12

On October 14 2015 16:38 mrarthursimon wrote:
Thank you for the hard work that goes into making Pro League a reality. Thank you for giving us foreign fans a chance to have our voices heard, I hope that you get some valuable feedback and continue to reach out to the foreign StarCraft II community in the future.

I have quite a lot of feedback. After reading all 222 posts before mine, I realize a lot of it will be redundant, but I'm giving it anyway.

I love the English language casters. I got into watching eSports back in 2010 when Wings of Liberty was released and started with people like HDStarcraft, Husky, and TotalBiscuit's entry level Starcraft commentary, so I won't be quite so critical on the English casters as others are. I actually don't have any criticism for the English casters, they do a wonderful job and I can't really imagine anyone else that could do it better considering the level of commitment required.

My dream for the English language cast is to have all 3 of them casting every match. They seem to have problems quite frequently, so I'd ask the casters what they would need to be able to perform consistently and with higher quality and ensure that they got those materials. Things off the top of my head that I can think of are a casting computer and microphone. Snute

In terms of production I think everything was acceptable. I can't speak to production as much simply because I'm not a producer, I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. My only criticisms about the stream would be that the detailed information (supply, worker count, mineral/gas count) is a bit small at the top of the screen. Pro League seems to have a rather unique style to their casting interface and that's great. When I first started watching it was a little difficult to know where everything was and to get all of the critical information for what was going on in the game, but after a few casts I adjusted. There are lots of other little criticisms of the user interface that are peppered throughout the thread but I don't have more myself.

My dream for production would be for GSL, SSL, and Pro League to all use the same UI. That way there could be a codified and united Korean Starcraft viewing experience.What elements to include and not include, I don't really know. I don't much care, personally, about the game clock. I know there are several people that have stated that they would like to have it back. I think a nice compromise would be releasing replays, that way the people that want to study builds will have the resources that they need, i.e. the game clock.

As far as viewing experience is concerned, I can see that there is an issue with PRIME, however I don't know if there is actually anything that can be done about it. StarTale had the same problem until SBENU rescued them and infused them with lots of old and new-ish talent. That seems more like an internal KeSPA matter, but the people in the thread are correct in that the performance of PRIME this year detracted from the viewing experience and the competitiveness of Pro League overall.

This dovetails well with the issue of teams not utilizing the entirety of their rosters. While PRIME is floundering with 7 players on their roster as of round 4 this year, every other team has a minimum of 9 with MVP having 12 players on their roster and Samsung Galaxy having 11 (According to Liquipedia). While I don't want to advocate for a roster cap, as lots of professional US Sports teams have, there is a problem with players on a teams roster not seeing action.

My dream fix to both of these situations won't be liked by most, but it's my dream! I'd love to see an expansion of Pro League to include more teams, including a "Foreigner All-Star" team, maybe a team that you have to play through a tournament to get into, or maybe based on year-long performance (Top 8/10/12 Foreign WCS point recipients each year get to stay in a team house and play in Pro League).

Players like Snute have shown the ability to defeat top-tier Korean players, like Rain and Classic at IEM Season X - Shenzhen this year who were the reigning GSL and SSL Champions whom Snute defeated in Group Stage 2. There would also have to be greater partnerships between Korean and Foreign teams, and with KeSPA and Foreign teams.

As far as the problem with PRIME, with greater cooperation between Korean and Foreign teams combined with looser restrictions from KeSPA you could potentially add foreign players to your roster for a round and only bring them in to play in situations where your regulars aren't performing the way that they should. There isn't a lot to be lost here, because if what happened with PRIME this year happens again next year, you may as well field a few wildcards, unknown variables that people haven't been studying and practicing for in an attempt to steal a win. It would include the foreign fans more and give them a greater incentive to watch, the ones that don't already, since players that they know would be playing on Korea's biggest Starcraft stage.

While I have gained a greater appreciation of Pro League this year, especially towards the end of it, it's not my favorite Starcraft league. While it has it's flaws, the new WCS system is my favorite league, followed closely by IEM/Dreamhack Tour/events. This is honestly because of how much I enjoy the personalities, divergent play styles, and uniqueness that the foreign players bring to the game. While I'm certain that Korean players do the same, a lot of that is lost to me because I don't speak Korean and because of how Pro League is about the team. The cultural barrier combined with the language barrier makes it so that even if the interviews are translated there is this sense of constant diminution of self. The trash talk is also hard to understand, which I'm sure is because of my lacking cultural context to understand why what is being said is being said. There are lots of little meanings that just don't come through to the foreign audience. There's not the same sense of bravado that exists in other team games environments.

My dream would be a dedicated translator for the English stream, to not only translate what is being said, but the meaning behind it, so that foreign viewers can have a greater understanding of the nuance behind what's being said and to reveal what's not being said and what it means in the context of the game and the team play nature of Pro League.

As far as broadcasting is concerned, I don't have much of a problem with watching the live streams of Pro League right now as I'm unemployed, but it does air live at a very awkward time for most people. I like what's been done with the VoD's lately, as they used to be spoiled easily just by looking at how many were uploaded but recent matches have had uploads for the maximum game number so that the match isn't so easily spoiled. Kudos to you on that, it's a great, though I'm sure rather annoying for the people responsible for it, practice and keeps the matches fresh for those that don't get to watch the live stream.

My dream would be that there would be partnerships with different community casters (BaseTradeTV, OGaming, TakeTV, etc) so that for those that don't enjoy the English Language casters can have their pick of casters to view the games. Maybe sending out replays to community casters for the regular season games, and possibly looking at having additional casters for bigger playoff events, whether it be end of round or end of season playoffs, so that people can have choice in how they view Pro League. That would certainly increase the amount of attention that Pro League receives.

For Legacy of the Void Archon Mode has shown, through the RedBull BattleGrounds series this year, that it is interesting at the very least. I'm sure that there is a way to incorporate Archon Mode into Pro League, especially since Archon Mode demands teamwork and communication, emphasizing things that are already emphasized in Pro League. Despite what some may say, Archon Mode won't be a niche, "casual only", mode. I don't think that it should be the Ace match though, as many are suggesting.

If the first set of each match were to be Archon Mode, that would give teams that have large rosters, like everyone but Prime, the opportunity to showcase the players that they can't put into other situations either because of their decrease in in-house performance or whatever reasons. I can see Archon Mode being something that takes off with Korean fans, especially if the chemistry of the players works well with the crowd and there are interviews that go into detail about training regimens and other perpetration. There are all sorts of things that you can do with Archon Mode that will give fledgling teams like PRIME not only the ability to showcase their talent but also increase their visibility to not only Korean but also foreign audiences.

I also think that there needs to be the same kind of support for Starcraft that there is for things like FIFA and Tekken (I think) with commercials and advertisements. I don't watch those, so I don't know if there are already commercials for Starcraft in those other broadcasts, but I've seem many commercials for other eSports while watching Pro League and it would be awesome if there were either subtitled or English Language commercials that you could play at DreamHack, IEM, during WCS matches and other Starcraft events as well as other eSports. This Years Pro League has had a lot of amazing moments, like Rogue's Baneling drops vs herO or Bunny's widow mines vs sOs. If those highlights and others like it were advertised I'm sure there'd be a measurable uptick in viewership.

I realize that commercials aren't cheap to make or to air, but to increase the foreign audience you have to let them know that there is something to watch, and Pro League is one of the least talked about things during Foreign Starcraft events.

Lastly, I didn't watch a lot of Pro League before this year. I'd watch the occasional match if I was awake, but it wasn't until this year that I started watching every set of every match and the playoffs. But the one thing that I almost always come away from Pro League with is wanting to watch more. I love the amount of strategic depth that it adds to Starcraft, I love the reactions of the fans when their favorite team wins, I love the GG Girls, it's got so much potential, but it usually feels unsatisfying for me when I'm done watching a live stream or finished watching a VoD.

It wasn't until last month that I even knew that there was a twitter hashtag associated with Pro League. You guys need to step your social media game up, quite a bit. Not just KeSPA, but the teams as well. Again, I don't speak or read Korean, so I don't know what is going on with the native side of things, but as a foreigner that loves Starcraft with vehement passion I'd love for there to be more involvement with the community side of things. Whether it be the incorporation of tweets (please not automated) being read or displayed during casts, the creation of a shop where a percentage of the proceeds of sales go to the team that you're buying merchandise for, or something else to get people to connect not only with the official organization that's behind Pro League but also with each other.

I don't know what kind of fan involvement there is for the Korean fans, but I think there should be at least some level of involvement with the foreign fans of Pro League as well. I live in Michigan, USA, so I'll never be able to go to a BarCraft or other semi-social setting to watch Pro League (it starts at 5:30 AM for me) even if there were one to go to here, but that's a tangent for another day. During WCS this year I started live tweeting the matches. I've had the casters mention me on stream a few times, they favorite and reply to a lot of my tweets, and every time they do I get excited and overjoyed because I'm actually giving input and getting feedback. It's amazing what that can do for your viewing audience, the kind of connection that forms. I went from less than 500 tweets to more than 6,000 in the span of just a few months, almost all of them with all sorts of hashtags on them to connect to the community. I've had lots of conversations with other fans and really connected with people about the game in a way that I can't do in real life. That is missing, I believe, for a lot of fans of Pro League.

While there are live report threads here on Team Liquid, the interface and method of communicating isn't anywhere near as conducive as Twitter and Facebook which most people use one or the other on a regular basis. Get out in front of your audience, give them a way to connect not only to you but also to each other and you'll see the audience grow.

Be out there on the front line, responding to people as they tweet about things, answering questions, favorite and retweet the people that are watching your streams live, give them reason to come back and watch more and to bring friends. Get people that already watch Starcraft to watch more, which most people will oblige if they have the ability. Do random giveaways to people that are tweeting with your hashtag, encourage people to talk about the game, to talk about Pro League. Have the teams have their own hashtag so that people can pick a side and be invested in a team, rather than just a player. Expound upon and enumerate the rivalries that exist with the teams. I hear the casters mention Telecom wars all the time but aside from knowing that KT Rolster and SK Telecom are both telecommunication companies that sponsor eSports teams I don't have any context, I don't have a reason to be invested in that rivalry (That and I really think I'm more of SBENU or Jin Air kind of guy). One of my favorite parts of Wings of Liberty was the rivalry that existed between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Evil Geniuses is still my favorite eSports team despite their showing of late in Starcraft 2 because I forged a bond with EG when HuK left Team Liquid for EG, and because iNcontroL has a direct line to my funny bone. There was a lot going on outside of the game between EG and TL at the time, and it was often expounded upon during matches between EG and TL players. That's the kind of commentary, the kind of little nuanced things, that can take Pro League from being good and entertaining to being megalithic.

I want to thank you guys for all of the hard work that you do. Without KeSPA and Pro League, there may not even be eSports today, much less a thriving and dedicated fan base to one of the top eSports, despite what many detractors may say during streams. Starcraft has proven that not only does it as a game have staying power but it's fans are dedicated, driven, and passionate about it. There are a lot of moves and decisions that you can make in the off-season to ensure that Pro League comes back stronger and better next year. I hope that the feedback that I and others have provided can be of some use, even if my dream scenarios are a little bit out of the way in terms of things that can be done.

Thanks for reading, those that did. Adun Toridas.

On October 14 2015 22:07 Sihrtogg wrote:
Mrarthursimon has covered so much in his post that I will keep my feedback limited to this particular thing that springs to mind right away when I think of improvement:


The Post-Season Grand Final Event at Lotte World
It was awesome to watch and a great conclusion of the season. Nice shots of the large crowd cheering them on. Great games also. Some things could have been better though: the English audio broadcast was not very well balanced, deafening oversteering sound when first turning on the cast, a missing microphone for Moonglade at the start.
Secondly, the format was a bit anti-climactic. After two weeks of best of three matches of best of seven games, it was a bit of a bummer the biggest final of all was just a best of 7 games without any all-kill aspects. I understand that the event had to take place on a single day at Lotte World, so you can't have day 3 fall off because one team won both Bo7's on day 1 and day 2. Still I felt there could have been a more satisfying way to crown the champions of the year.
I was watching together with my friends and during the long breaks in between games, we tried to think of a format that would fit in a single day, that wouldn't take too long and would combine both the all-kill and line-up formats for an awesome combination of preparation games, snipe builds and creative on-the-fly play. I outline what we came up with below.


Alternative Ace Format

The entire match will be held on a single day and is best of 9 games (first to 5 wins).

Some time before the match (e.g. a week) a line-up is made for the first 7 matches on randomly ordered maps (all maps in pool) and players are assigned by both teams to come out on these maps. Additionally an 'Ace' player is nominated by each team in advance, but no opponent is given yet. The Ace player cannot be in any of the line-up games. Shortly after (still a week before the match) it is revealed to the other team who comes out on what map and who will be the Ace. So contrary to the regular Proleague season, the Ace player is already known in advance by the opposing team.

During the match the line-up is followed only until one team reaches match point (4 games won). At that moment the match becomes 'all-kill' format. The team that has lost four games sends their Ace player to save them from defeat.
Now the team that has won four games can pick any player of their roster that has not played yet, except the Ace, to try and defeat / snipe the Ace player to get the fifth win for their team. If the Ace wins, the team that is ahead can pick another player that hasn't played yet to try again, and so on. If it goes to the final 9th match both Aces will face each other.
The maps during the all-kill phase will be loser's pick. This means the first time that the Ace comes out, he can select a map himself, but from then on the maps will be picked by the team that is ahead trying to defeat the Ace player. Any map that the Ace hasn't played on yet during the match can be chosen. (Only maps that were already played in a line-up game can be repeated.)

This format will provide quality games all throughout the match. The teams will try their best to get to match point first, because it's a huge advantage to pick maps against the enemy Ace. So both teams will likely send their strongest players in the first couple of games. The weaker players on the team will be focused on preparing snipes against the enemy Ace, a specific build on a specific map against a predetermined Ace player. Ultimate preparation for the sniper; no preparation for the Ace, he has to wait and see what happens on match day and use superior play rather than surprise to win. A balanced format that features team play and preparation, but also allows the strongest player of a team to shine. It's all there in the ultimate team showdown. A fitting end to the Proleague year.

Besides the yearly Post-Season Finals, this Ace format could also be used during the 1-day play-offs at the end of every season. This will familiarize the fans with the format over the course of the year and will also provide that healthy combination of team and Ace in those single day Proleague Final events.

Thanks for reading! If you have any questions feel free to ask.


TL;DR
Combined Line-up + All-Kill Format. The Ace comes out as 'savior' of the team that is facing defeat; attempts to win all remaining games against an onslaught of snipers and ultimately the enemy Ace. It's epic awesomeness to the max!

On October 15 2015 00:50 Shinespark wrote:


I disagree. I think people don't need to see all the numbers. Watching numbers moving isn't fun. I hate to be one of those people, but in BW, a game that actually is exciting, the only numbers you could see were supply, current money and sometimes apm.
To a degree, not knowing exactly what each player has makes it a little more exciting, specially when you watched korean casters and you don't know what's going on.
Having lots of numbers and the production tab on the screen isn't fun, and it's confusing for newcomers.

On an unrelated note, I'd like to comment on casters making predictions. It doesn't bother me when they're wrong, it bothers me that they try. If the game's so predictable, what's the point of watching it at all?
I don't know if anyone saw the leaked instructions from Vince McMahon to the commentators of WWE that came out a couple of months ago, but those instructions covered things like these in great detail, and lots of them made sense. I know WWE and SC2 are totally different but they both break down to 2 guys fighting each other, and the pacing of the match and how the audience recieves it hinges on the commentators on both WWE and SC2.
Furthermore, WWE is a far older, far more successful business than SC2 and I'm certain they have a lot more experience with commentators. I think SC2 casters would do well to read those documents.

On October 14 2015 05:58 valas991 wrote:
Rebroadcast on the evenings, not necessarily on the day it happened, but on weekends perhaps
10Q/A

There are a lot of things above I could agree with, but for me, these would be the best

On October 15 2015 03:09 Starecat wrote:
It's kinda funny people bashing Wolf and his gang for stuff that Artosis and Tasteless do everytime.